[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

I still think we should go 0% research for Currency because part of the point of teching Drama was to trade it around for other techs, one of them being currency. There is no point in spending gold past what is required to make the trade, so I think we should stockpile gold as we wait for another AI to get currency and so make it a common tech. Ie the AI's stop saying "we don't want to start trading this tech away yet."

As for construction, I think trying to out war a deity AI with elephants when they have LBs is asking for trouble. We should keep focusing on getting techs that the AIs don't so that we can trade them around.

A while ago in another thread someone (unfortunately I can't remember who) made the excellent point that trading a tech around for one other amounts to a 100% boost to your beaker count, and multiple trades and brokerages boost the ratio higher. IMO That is what we need to do to keep up with the AI.

Not sure why we can't see Pascal's research, but he probably is putting EPs towards us which means that the base EP count to see his tech is rising. So maybe we just have not hit the target yet.
 
Well, it seems binary research is the popular act here, and I agree we could use the gold we pile (which I don't think will amount to a whole lot). But as Stochastic said, if we research a tech which other AI's don't have, we could trade for it which is effectively a 100% boost to research. Isn't it a shame to let it pass?

So let's say we go to 0% research on currency. How long do we keep it? until we can trade drama for currency? Wouldn't it be better to research compass at 70-80% while waiting for some other AI to research currency?

If the scout can't pillage then I won't send 2 workers to the copper. Only 1 to the capital. The axe will still go to destroy this enemy, though.

I think I checked and we already passed the threshold to see pacal's research. Oh well.
 
I believe sometimes you can't see their research for a turn, when they've completed a tech or switch to a different one.

BTW I didn't mean CANCEL the settler, I meant postpone it, whip a couple units first. We will be attacked in 3 or 4 turns (can't remember exactly), and we really need a few more units in Tiwanaku.

Even while our units won't die without walls, they'll get injured, and then die to the second attack (most of 'em need to defend twice against the current stack). And there's no telling if he hasn't got another stack coming our way (didn't he also have chariots?), then we'd really be in trouble, because 1/3-1/2 of our defensive units in tiwanaku will have been killed by the first SOD.
 
Good point on a 2nd stack (I'm so short sighted...).
I can't look at the save now, but I might whip an axe or 2 before going back to the settler.

I just want to close the research issue - I prefer continue at 70-80% (not sure how much exactly, will see when I open the save). I'll go for compass, in the hope that some other AI will finish currency so we can trade it. I guess it's either that or binary research. So far We have 2 votes for binary (Stochastic and pholkhero) and 1 for keep research up (yours truly).

Any other opinions?
 
For the settler, my concern is that when we whip the city to get more units out we don't want to go back to building the settler because we will want to regrow. How about we whip the settler now, and then build axes/spears afterward. The point about two waves is a good one, but we do have a bit of time, and I hold out hope that we will be able to sue for peace after the first wave (though it might cost drama :() I'm thinking that after the whip we build an archer because that can be compleated with the overflow, build units with the corn and an ivory, checking for chances to micro for a faster growth. The next unit built should be a spear to provide defense vs the chariots.

Also I don't think there is any point in trying to chase down the scout, it can't do any damage and I'd rather have the units at the front.

For the research I think compass is a good choice, but I'm not sure why we would research it at 70-80% as that is not sustainable and won't finish it off either. I can understand going for sustainable research or Binary, but not a combination of not-binary and unsustainable.
 
agreed on the research

also, i think we can finish the settler first. dont whip it as it's only 2 turns away from finishing and would be grossly inefficient imo.

as it is, there' s no 2nd stack that we can see and if we throw in a few more units to tiwa, we'll have unit parity (though i don't think all his units will attack once the swords go down).

also, as no one has LBs yet, i don't see the harm of constr.
 
My point is, in only 4 turns there need to be more units in tiwanaku, that's the reason I proposed interrupting the settler.

You might be right though, that there might be enough units without machu building/whipping extra units, I think OTOH better safe then sorry, it's not like

BUT another reason why interrupting the settler is ok, is: We won't have captured the barb city by the time the settler is completed, so it doesn't NEED to be done in 2 turns (and then waiting until the city is razed) (or wasn't the settler meant for the barb city spot?)

about research, in general I think it's a good idea to go 0% until we can tech the whole tech @ 100%

I favour currency, I feel we shouldn't postpone it much longer, and we don't know how long until someone's willing to trade it.

However, if the rest favours compass then that's fine too.

one more thing, what to do with the GG we'll get? Settle him in Machu? (I think it's a fine militairy city, not great production, but very decent for pumping units)
 
The settler is intended for the marble/fish city. The settler is 5 turns away from finishing. So I will whip the settler next turn into a unit (spear? axe?).

I think settle the GG in Macchu is good, unless we are in trouble in Tiwa, in which case I'll create a warlord out of an axe (super medic?), and hopefully other units can also promote.

About LB's - pacal has feudalism.

I can't be sure until we finish drama, but 70% is very sustainable for completing compass, unless we upgrade units. If we do (which I'll do if we must), I'll drop research.

I'm never sure whether to postpone the play when we're debating these decisions, but since this is a special SG (deity? me?) I have less self confidence about it than ever.
So for now I'll postpone it til tomorrow. Sorry if this takes too long.

BTW do we currently have any use for the iron? it'll be inside our borders next turn.
 
Acutally if we get a GG I think a medic might be the best choice. That will open the HE for us which is probably more useful than a city with a settled GG. And something to keep in mind, national wonders can also be used for failure gold too.

About the units count in Tiwa, I think we are ok for the first round, but not a further round, which is why I'm less worried about getting units in asap and more willing to get the settler (for the marble as asaf said) out now. The archers on hills behind walls will make short work out of anything except swords (and even those will have a hard time) and the axes will help with swords.

Don't worry too much about postponing things, though if it looks like we are starting to talk in circles just go and play it. As the "up" person you have the final call (at least that is how I see sgs)
 
Ok then, you've convinced me we're safe enough without going whip-crazy, so finishing the settler first is ok.

Good point about unlocking HE, but if our exp. farming axe (on the barb city) succeeds in getting 10 XP, I think being able to spam 2 promo units (shock axes, CGII archers, CR2 swords) will be a lot better then having a medic we won't use (I don't see us going on the offense any time soon). A Medic I unit is good enough for city defenders imo.

If we can't get a 10XP unit soon, attaching for medic III to unlock HE is fine.

Normally I don't like generating failure gold from NAT. wonders (just a bit too exploitish for me, just like worker stealing), but hey, this is deity, so any trick we can think of, let's use it!

EDIT: yeah, agree on the person playing to make the final decisions.
 
Well, I decided to play a little anyway.
But again, I won't complete my turn set now.
For one, I'm too tired and I'd rather be with a slightly clearer mind for this.
And second, we have a problem I'd rather discuss.

Oh well, a 3 part turn set it is.

150 BC (109) -

Made the trades:
Ivory to Pacal for corn+4:gold:
Pig to Bismarck for dye

Moved 2 axes towards the barb city to try and gain XP, retreated the 3rd one to cuzcu.
Sent the quecha from cuzcu to the marble/fish site, and the axe to Macchu. Sent the 2 axes from macchu to Tiwa.

Switched Tiwa to build walls.

125 BC (110) -

Drama -> compass @ 70% research (sustainable, for now).

Hmmm... Sury's 2nd wave came earlier than we expected.

Spoiler :
2ndwavem.jpg


I'll continue tomorrow. I intend to change the settler to spear and whip so it'll be ready next turn and reach Tiwa before the many chariots. I know it has the 1st production turn penalty, but I don't see a choice.
A Macchu forest will complete chop next turn, so I can probably finish another unit in the following turn (axe? spear?).

Tiwa currently has 5 axes and 4 archers, and in 2 turns (after the 1st wave) it'll have another axe, and maybe a spear (if I whip it).
No other unit can arrive in time for the 2nd wave (in 3 turns), unless we train it in Tiwa.
I'll whip the walls next turn (just before the attack), and even though this city has no barracks I think I'll switch to an axe later.
I'm considering giving up the scientist for working the 2 hammers unimproved hill, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Not sure this research will be sustainable now. We might want to switch to 0%. I forgot to check the possible tech trades and can't do it now.

Oh, and a barbarian galley north of chehalis (where the pigs are about to be improved) has appeared. I'll send a quecha or 2 to guard the worker (can barbarians steal workers?).
 

Attachments

Barb galleys are empty, unless they're actually have been built by a barb city, then they can load units on it. barb galleys can't steal workers, and if it's loaded with axes, guarding with quecha's won't help

There's a partial completed axe in Machu, why not whip that instead of a penaltied spear?

Sury's swords will face axes, and his chariots will face cityhillwalls-archers. Getting unit parity is more important then getting anti-units.

Research should go to 0% imo

Keep the scientist, walls-whip overflow into either an archer or the NE, depending on how the battle went.

Also note that in Rajavihara, there's another 6 units, are they all city garrisons? Or are there more attacking units parked?
 
I agree with all of Mike's points.

What is more discouraging for me is seeing that Pascal is researching Philo, I was banking on that helping us out of our tech hole.
 
Raja has 3 units: an archer (CG1) and 2 axes (C1). It also has 2 mayan units.

125 BC (110) (continued) -

Switched macchu to axeman and whipped it.
Advanced the 2 northern axes towards the barb city of Libyan.

IBT - Buddhism has spread to Chehalis.

100 BC (111) -

Hatty offers OB:
Spoiler :
hattyob.jpg

Since we wanted to explore this area, and we better improve our relations with her, I accept.

I forgot to change research to 0% last turn. Doing so now.

Hatty will trade calendar, but she wants both drama and literature, and since we can't offer her gold yet, I decide it's not worth it.

Sury advanced his troops. Whipping walls.

Cuzcu: axe -> spear.
Macchu: axe -> axe (pushed before settler, will finish this turn thanks to chop + overflow from whip)

Moved both axes from macchu towards Tiwa (they're just outside).
Promoted a few axes in Tiwa to Combat I.
I hope Sury doesn't attack with all his chariots this turn (they're only 2 tiles away). I guess he will keep them with the rest of the stack.

Sending the veteran axe in cuzco south.
A quecha from Chehalis was sent east to start exploring Hatty's territory.

Libyan has 4 archers, so I promote the axe next to it to cover. odds are 68%. Hmmm... a tough one. If we lose it'll only make them stronger.
Wait a minute - 5.5 vs. 4.5? That doesn't sound right... It should be 6.75 vs. 5.25. How do they calculate these things?
And the archer has 1st strike...
Not enough to gain. To get to 4th level, I'll have to beat 2, maybe 3, archers. Not enough chances. I retreat these axes for now.

George came across a Khmer archer in Pacal's territory. Waiting in an ideal position for the archer (in a forest, across a river, even if we don't really need it). Bring it on...

Now to press Enter, and keep my fingers crossed for the battle of Tiwanaku...

75 BC (112) -
It was a great battle, the battle of Tiwanaku. One that will be the muse for poets all around the empire. If we survive this.
To sum up: We had no casualties. Sury lost 3 swords, 3 spears, 2 chariots, an axe and an archer.

Our GG Sargon was born in Cuzco. Since getting a level 4 unit from the barb city seems a bit unrealistic now, I send it to Tiwa.

2 of the axes can be promoted, none of the archers can. Which kinda sucks since we have another wave next turn.
Moved the 2 axes next to Tiwa into Tiwa, and promoted them to Combat I.

Sury moved some of his units outside of our borders, but he has a few more coming.

Current Status (you can see our units in Tiwa in the bottom):
Spoiler :
post1stwave.jpg


I promoted both axes to Combat II, so they could handle the chariots better (all archers are now wounded, at least a little, and +20% already gives axes 7.2 against the chariots 8, not including the defense bonuses).

Pushed another archer before the NE (I know he won't have any XP, but he'll be ready between turns and can hopefully help us).

Maccho completed an axe, which is immediately sent towards Tiwa. The axe from the north replaces it. It will now continue the settler, since I think we have enough units for now. If we have more surprises, I might change that.

The archer didn't attack George, but moved to a position where George can attack it @ 84%. I ponder for a while but then decide we would have nothing to gain and that we need George for other things. George continues exploring.

Cuzco has grown to unhappiness, but it is healthy since cow and wheat are now connected.
I trade pig to Pacal for fur. Happiness problem solved, health problem is not yet created, and we'll have another pig connected soon.

Pacal and bismarck have some free gpt for trade, but I don't know what to trade it for...

Oh, I've just noticed that Sury is ready to talk. This is his offer:
Spoiler :
peacetalks.jpg


25:gold: ? I accept.

Should have checked it in the beginning of the turn, would have saved some promotions and maybe some units movement. Oh well.
And suddenly currency is off the table (too soon).
We're pleased with Sury now.

Bismarck's HA is scouting our lands. As are Hatty's scout and war chariot.

Tiwa is of course returned to NE, which will complete next turn.

I raise research back to 90%, will get us compass (which no one has yet) in 5 turns. We have enough gold for it :)
Hopefully soon someone will be able to give us currency or we'll be forced to tech it ourselves.

50 BC (113) -
Tiwa: NE -> barracks while growing back to size 4 so we can add another scientist (GP is up in 4, hopefully a GS since NE adds artist points).
Olly: axe -> worker

The GG is now at Tiwa. It's not urgent, so I do nothing with it, but assuming we want a warlord, we can just take it out of the city with the 3-4 units we want to promote.

25 BC (114) -
A new rival (we met his scout in hatty's lands):
Spoiler :
asokasee.jpg


And immediately:
Spoiler :
asokawant.jpg


Asoka is far away, a friend of hatty and bizzy but worst enemy of sury, and in the score is right above us, and he's already annoyed with us.
And almost no one has drama yet.
I reject his demands.

Cuzco: spear -> worker

1 AD (115) -
Macchu: settler -> spear (All these war chariots going around scare me)

Seems like a good year to end my turn.

There are a few techs now in the market:
Spoiler :
techs.jpg

Hatty will trade currency for drama+lit. Maybe we should take it, I don't know. Actually, this is the price she wants for any of her techs. Maybe we want to get CoL?
Sury is willing to trade currency in general, we just can't pay his price.

Compass is up in 2 turns, we can probably get something for it. We should probably switch to 0% afterwards to get some gold.
Pacal is now researching paper.

Don't forget the GG.

We have 2 quechas scouting: George in the south between Berlin and Frankfurt, and another one in the north east scouting hatty.

We should decide what to do with the barb city, we should either get a larger force or use cats (or swords).
We have unimproved iron in the middle of our land.

The settler will reach the marble/fish tile next turn and can found the city. A quecha is sitting there waiting for him.

We should probably send some more units to the east (a spear is on its way there now). There are 3 axes in cuzco, we can probably let 1 or 2 go (although they do help with happy cap).

GS will bulb philo, but we're behind in the liberalism race.

I might be able to be online tomorrow, but after that I won't be online until Sunday.

Save:
 

Attachments

Well I guess we survive to tell another tale.

Looking at the unit spread I wonder if we could have held out for another turn and so gained a better peace deal, but peace then was probably the best choice to avoid possible backstab plans and loosing wounded units. So it is time to try to survive for a bit longer:crazyeye:

Diplo
Looking at our possible deals, I disagree with trading our last pigs to Pascal for fur, we need the health more than the happy in most cities, especially since we are in HR, then again we might end up getting the rice in before we can cancel the deal, in which case we should renegotiate for gpt. Pascal has more gpt available that we could renegotiate for in the ivory deal in 4 turns.

We should also OB with Surry to try to get to Friendly.

Techs
For tech deals I think we should trade for currency asap, then look around for any possible deals of Cash for Lit or Drama. Pause the set when we get compass to see what we can trade for that. I note that we have hit the WFYHBTA cap with Bizzy, but there isn't much we can do. Hopefully we can get CoL and MC (I don't think Calendar is useful as it will risk further WFYABTA results) for Compass. I still think we should bulb Philo so that we can try to trade for Civil Service.

After that I'm thinking that we should consider going for Nationalism afterward, we can bulb up the Paper/edu line if it looks like Pascal isn't going for lib and we might grab the Taj for a little boost.

Buildings
I think Tiwa should change to building a monastery (Cuzco should get one next).
If we get a super medic we could start building the HE in Tiwa or Machu, but not finish it, and then finish it in Olly for some failure gold.
When we get MC I think we should get Forges up in all cities, as Ind I generally consider those to go after Granaries (and sometimes Lighthouses if it is a coastal city with low food)

Units
I'm thinking we should go burn down the barb city for some gold. The blue dot is much better IMO because it has both resources in the first ring and has less ocean tile (ie more FIN coast as well as more land).
I think we should be able to get out another settler in the next set to go there, with the plan of getting another settler out soon for the other blue dot.
The worker coming out of Cuzco should improve some of the surrounding land with cottages, it can afford to chop another forest, so a green tile is probably better, though it won't be riverside so the FIN bonus will take longer to show up.
 
We should NOT trade drama+lit for currency to hatty, as we'll be giving her extra stuff (due to not being able for her to fit it wit gold), and we'll get the -4 diplo penalty from 2 AI's

We should just finish compass and trade it for currency from sury.

Then sell literature for whatever it's worth (but again, don't sell it at a discount to Hatty or any other AI who's (someone important)'s worst enemy).

Then see if we can get some good stuff from pacal.

See if we can (re)negotiate resource deals for GPT.

I assume we're trying to get Bureau asap? (currency-col-CS)
 
That point about the WE problems is a good point, I'd like to keep trying to trade each turn, maybe we can make a trade work with gold on one side or another.
 
I have a migraine, so not available for the next couple of days probably. I have no idea whose turn it is, but if it's mine, please swap me. Thanks.
 
I have no idea whose turn it is, but if it's mine, please swap me. Thanks.

:lol: I had to go back through 5 whole pages before I found the latest semi-hidden roster:

Stochastic has dropped the hot potato
Mikehendi is UP
Asaf is On deck.
Pholkhero is now wishing he hadn't signed on to this cardboard boat just before the hurricane (or just living up to that sig?)
Happyturtle wonders if she will ever play this game again...

So that'd mean:

ROSTER:

Pholkhero: UP to fight our 3rd consecutive war! Hey, at least it isn't a dogpile!
Happyturtle: Fleeing away from the scene, however if Pholk gets us online again, she might be 'suddenly' feeling better :p
Stochastic
Mikehendi
Asaf: Has been playing for the last 3 pages straight! :lol:
 
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