Micromanagement

Regarding hammers, Civ4 still has a significant "discretization" effect in that total hammers are rounded before being applied each turn. For example, in the early game where many cities might have 3 or less base hammers per turn, the OR civic or a forge has no effect (unless you decide to whip). All of the hammer bonuses I can think of come in 25% chunks or multiples thereof, which means every city can lose potentially up to 0.75:hammers: per turn thanks to the hammer rounding.

I found it interesting that EmperorFool modded in "fractional trade routes" as an option in BULL mod for BtS. This single change was another step in the direction of removing discretization because it meant that if you had four trade routes each with a value of 1.75:commerce: (e.g. early game you could get +25% for connection to cap, +50% for harbor and the 4 trade routes from GLH and reaching Currency), each would get truncated to 1:commerce: totaling only 4:commerce: where you really deserve 7:commerce:.

Examples of discretization like that IMO really ought to be addressed.
 
i still cant understand the Micromanagement thing so i hope by Civ V comes out i would understand the Micromanagement
 
Regarding hammers, Civ4 still has a significant "discretization" effect in that total hammers are rounded before being applied each turn. For example, in the early game where many cities might have 3 or less base hammers per turn, the OR civic or a forge has no effect (unless you decide to whip). All of the hammer bonuses I can think of come in 25% chunks or multiples thereof, which means every city can lose potentially up to 0.75:hammers: per turn thanks to the hammer rounding.

I found it interesting that EmperorFool modded in "fractional trade routes" as an option in BULL mod for BtS. This single change was another step in the direction of removing discretization because it meant that if you had four trade routes each with a value of 1.75:commerce: (e.g. early game you could get +25% for connection to cap, +50% for harbor and the 4 trade routes from GLH and reaching Currency), each would get truncated to 1:commerce: totaling only 4:commerce: where you really deserve 7:commerce:.

Examples of discretization like that IMO really ought to be addressed.
Agreed. And I will definitely look up the option of the fractional routes...

Also the Civ5:Discretiztion title that popped up in my head because of this thread made me lol. :lol:
 
Absolutely. Civ4 removed a lot of these, with removing the rounding issues (as you say) and with spillover over hammers and beakers onto the next project/tech.

Hopefully we'll see a little more of this in Civ5 to remove the last few issues like this.
(Example: you get hammers for each turn a worker spends on forest chop, and each turn you chop the forest has an X% chance to remove the forest, where X is 100/number of turns needed to chop the forest in civ4.)
Though this would also cause a few other problems.
hammer rounding nerfs IMP and EXP, especially EXP. IMP is still fine with +50% prod to settler because you will have more than 2hammers anyway.
EXP: +25% prod worker doesn't give any bonus for the initial worker building if you have less than 4 hammers. if it was not rounded, EXP would get 3.75 from 3 hammers.

rounding commerce also should be nerfing sth. still, it isn't a very important loss, that i agree.
 
Oh, I agree that there are still *some* rounding problems, and I'd like to see them fixed. But (particularly with mods) we're much better off than we were in Civ3 on rounding issues.

Discreteness issues should be removed whenever possible to do so in a simple manner.

[Some discreteness is a good gameplay simplification though, like cities of large discrete population sizes, where each citizen can work one tile.]
 
What? Where'd you get that info? Or are you just assuming they are going to leave things exactly the same as they are?

For discussion's sake I was making the perhaps unreasonable assumption that everything we don't know about CIV5 will remain the same as it was in CIV4. Probably not such a wise idea, but there you are.


Hopefully we'll see a little more of this in Civ5 to remove the last few issues like this.
(Example: you get hammers for each turn a worker spends on forest chop, and each turn you chop the forest has an X% chance to remove the forest, where X is 100/number of turns needed to chop the forest in civ4.)
Though this would also cause a few other problems.

If I was going to make the function, I'd make it so selective logging was possible. Give a forest so many hammers and let a worker remove so many hammers per turn. Once the hammers in the forest fall to zero, it's no longer a forest. And if the worker stops chopping before then, the forest can "heal" itself.

Of course, it could be argued that this would increase the need for micromanaging. But I would hope that along with a "Chop Forest" button, I would also have the option of hitting a "Selective Harvest Forest" button. And even beyond that, be able to set defaults somewhere, like how one can tell workers to leave forests and existing improvements alone in CIV4.
 
Give a forest so many hammers and let a worker remove so many hammers per turn. Once the hammers in the forest fall to zero, it's no longer a forest. And if the worker stops chopping before then, the forest can "heal" itself.

Thats problematic. Then you would want to chop every hammer contained in the forest except 1 in a single turn, and then leave the foreset there.

Making it random is the only way you can keep the marginal incentives the same each turn.

Or, just remove the chop bonus entirely, and make deforestation something that contributes nothing but is required in order to build other improvements.
 
please remove the chop - the AI has never used it effectively if at all. That it exists is only one more reason they needed the AI to "cheat" at higher levels.
 
Thats problematic. Then you would want to chop every hammer contained in the forest except 1 in a single turn, and then leave the foreset there.

Yeah, basically.
Unless the regrowth rate was tied to hammers left remaining in a forest. Then there is an incentive to only do a limited chop.

Of course, one could make the decision to chop a forest even more difficult by actually allowing a forest to grow stronger over time. Like a cottage, a worker could be allowed to build an Orchard or a Hunting Reserve in a forest. And then like cottages, they slowly get better over time as they are worked. Chopping an improved forest would then be like looting one's own Towns and Villages.
 
I like "intelligent" micromanagement, that requires strategic decisionmaking, like choosing which improvements to build on each tile.

I dislike tedious "working the system" micromanagement, like exploiting the mechanics of how whipping works, or when tech progress and hammers didn't roll over across projects.
I want to add my vote to this. I really wish there were different names for these two things instead of calling them both micromanagement. The "intelligent" type is a tough strategic decision where the various options have qualitatively different pros and cons. The "working the system" type isn't a decision, you do it because it gives a result that is just plain better. This is especially bad if it is a simple repetitive task. That is not fun, that is work that should be done by a computer.
I have no problem with converting population/food into hammers. I intensely dislike the "optimization" factor to it; that it is more valuable to whip when your food box is nearly full than when it is nearly empty, because of the increasing food box sizes needed to increased each population level.
This is a great example of both types. Slavery gives a good choice between food and production, and between short-term and long-term benefit. But another "optimization" in slavery comes from how whipping two population at once causes less unhappiness than two whips of one population each. You get a much better ratio of hammers to unhappiness if you whip when your building is at 29/60 hammers than you do at 30/60 hammers. You can benefit by watching all of your cities all of the time and whipping their projects at just the right times.

So, in conclusion: good micromanagement is good, bad micromanagement is bad.
 
I want to add my vote to this. I really wish there were different names for these two things instead of calling them both micromanagement. The "intelligent" type is a tough strategic decision where the various options have qualitatively different pros and cons. The "working the system" type isn't a decision, you do it because it gives a result that is just plain better.
Seconded, lumping these two into the same name creates confusion. I suspect there are very few people indeed who would be against reducing the latter type, but the former type is clearly quite popular - we want the game to result in big decisions, but we also want to craft an empire, and we want those decisions to be based on the empire we crafted. It is the crafting requires smart micromanagement (not the dumb, repetitive sort).
 
I like "intelligent" micromanagement, that requires strategic decisionmaking.

I dislike tedious "working the system" micromanagement.

To me the first is making policy decisions.
And the second is implementing them, a.k.a. pushing buttons.
I don't like pushing buttons.

I believe it would be easy to implement higher level policy decisions in an automatic worker by simply opening up the AI desion tree the game currently uses to determine worker actions into a chart (perhaps, terrain type versus possible improvements) and then letting a player fill in what they wanted on the chart.

Thus if a player (like me) pretty much always builds cottages on a flood plains, all they'd have to do is open the chart, indicate that flood plains should get cottages, and then an automated worker would always build cottages on floodplains.

Setting up the chart might take some time, but if the chart (or tree) were started with the AI's default decisions in place, it would only be a matter of tweaking the system. And if these charts could be saved as mods/options one would only have to do it once, or load up a "Best Practices" outline from a forum (instead of manually implementing the same as one is now forced to do).

As to exploits, the way to deal with them is remove them.
It is my understanding that one of the major problems (loss of efficiency) with automating a worker is that beyond simply getting the worker to do what one wants it to do (where and when) there remains the problem of controlling he EXACT keyboard click sequence of how the worker performs the action. And this EXACT keyboard click sequence matters, not because gamers enjoy clicking buttons to tell a worker to build cottages, but because it is built into the system.

For example:
Asked to build a farm three tiles away on a road, an automated worker moves three tiles, ends its turn, and then starts to build a farm. (2 turns, 1 turn building target farm)
A worker being manually controlled is moved two tiles, chops/builds/farms, backspace is hit to end the chop/build/farm at the end of the turn, and the next turn the worker moves one more tile and begins to farm the target tile. (2 turns, 1 turn building target farm, one turn doing something else).
Net gain, 1 turn of "work" for manually controlling the worker.

To remove this exploit, all that needs be done is implement partial turn credit for chopping/building/farming (a 1/3 turn chop = 1/3 of a chop). And without the exploit, the strategic need for manually controlling worker diminishes greatly. Which is to say, if the results were the same between manually controlled workers and automated workers, I doubt anyone would manually control workers.

There are other ways to streamline the efficiency of automated workers, not significantly more complicated than I have outlined. It's not a matter of programing skill, it's a matter of desire and intent, and since I am under the impression "opening" the code for players and making the game more modable is part of the plan for Civ 5, I can't see why something of this nature can't or wouldn't be done, either before Civ 5 hits the market or after by gamers.

Further, since the computer has an AI function for every aspect of the game (troop movement, placement, and fighting; city production, tile selection; tech queue; etc.), automating each of these functions should be just as easy for the human player.
One would not have to avail themselves of these automations, but one could if one wanted to, letting the game play itself and only tweaking and correcting habitually bad moves or decisions made by the AI. Undoubtably in time, correcting these bad moves would become known as exploits, as well.
 
please remove the chop - the AI has never used it effectively if at all. That it exists is only one more reason they needed the AI to "cheat" at higher levels.

I hope they dont! Chopping is an aspect of the game I really like! Chop early units? A wonder even? Save them for maths? Chopping made for many intriguing descicions and i loved it :)

And am I the only one loving the AI "cheat"?
 
I for one can say I never used the chop intelligently.

But I don't think the chop is going anywhere, too many people like it.
 
chop is a clever type of micromanagement, prechopping is even further.

i think friends who don't support chopping to be IN may be considering it not to be realistic. well maybe not, but still a good micromanagement.
in very early game, when your capitol pop is low, there is not much to do with your worker after a few resource hooking/road buildings.
 
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