• We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.

Microsoft's Chinese factories not very "labor friendly"

It's not as much about the "dirtyness" of the job as the mind numbingness of it, the minimal pay & the 16-hour days, day after day.

My last job was taking care of farm animals (including cleaning up after them). It was dirty but it was meaningful work also. And I wasn't doing it 16 hours a day (with 20% of my salary cut for eating a few of the eggs during the day). I mean if you read even 20% of the article & hear about what's actually going on you'll realize how outrageous it is to be justifying this type of stuff.

Again, no one would want their sister or friend or even a neighbor they didn't particularly like to be treated this way but when it's someone 8,000 miles away they can envision as "starving to death" (many people starving in China?) without the "glorious opportunity to serve Market (Mammon), designing my new iPod/Pad/whathaveyou"! all of a sudden it's not only ok, it's morally good! :(

dont tell me you were eating raw eggs Narz
 
dont tell me you were eating raw eggs Narz
Well this is :offtopic: but yeah, I eat raw eggs all the time. By themselves they're kind of gross but I make & eat (uncooked) cookie dough on the regular (using Rye flour instead of wheat & honey instead of white & brown sugar). Most of the places I lived I didn't have an oven & besides cookie dough is way better than cookies.

It's not really a big deal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12022671?dopt=Abstract

Only about only 1 in every 30,000 eggs is contaminated with salmonella & when your source is clean, healthy uncrowded chickens I imagine it's more like 1 in 300,000. I worry more about getting in a car crash (the leading cause of death for young people).

I feel bad for you if your mom never let you try raw cookie dough.
 
It's not as much about the "dirtyness" of the job as the mind numbingness of it, the minimal pay & the 16-hour days, day after day.
Oh boo hoo. It's the price to pay for us to get cheap crap. Most are glad to get any kind of pay instead of being beggers or farmhands with NO PAY!

It's reprehensible from a human rights perspective. It's reprehensible from an environment perspective. And it's reprehensible from an ethical perspective. Especially considering this (their phony PR letter)

It's not reprehensible. It's a way of business. If the same device was made in the United States with American Labor, you'd most certainly would have to pay an arm and a leg for it. Where as if the device was manufactured in China with cheap labor, the price would not be as bad.
 
Well this is :offtopic: but yeah, I eat raw eggs all the time. By themselves they're kind of gross but I make & eat (uncooked) cookie dough on the regular (using Rye flour instead of wheat & honey instead of white & brown sugar). Most of the places I lived I didn't have an oven & besides cookie dough is way better than cookies.

It's not really a big deal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12022671?dopt=Abstract

Only about only 1 in every 30,000 eggs is contaminated with salmonella & when your source is clean, healthy uncrowded chickens I imagine it's more like 1 in 300,000. I worry more about getting in a car crash (the leading cause of death for young people).

I feel bad for you if your mom never let you try raw cookie dough.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/10/1716

Although cooked eggs are nearly twice as nutritious as raw eggs.
 
Not to mention cooked eggs are much safer.
 
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/10/1716

Although cooked eggs are nearly twice as nutritious as raw eggs.
No, that's wrong. You absorb more protein from cooked eggs than raw but that =/ "twice as nutritious". Most nutrients are more bioavialble raw, some are more bioavialble cooked (in the case of eggs for example, enzyme inhibitors block the absorption of some of the protein in the uncooked product).

But I'm assuming you didn't actually wanted to talk about eggs, just score a point for contrarianism. Since this isn't really the thread for this we can talk more about eggs via PM if you want.
Not to mention cooked eggs are much safer.
See above. Raw eggs are, for the most part, safe. And again, I feel bad for any kid who never got to eat cookie dough.

Oh boo hoo. It's the price to pay for us to get cheap crap. Most are glad to get any kind of pay instead of being beggers or farmhands with NO PAY!
I see why people don't like arguing with you.

It's not reprehensible. It's a way of business. If the same device was made in the United States with American Labor, you'd most certainly would have to pay an arm and a leg for it.
Good. Then maybe wouldn't be so wasteful & appreciate their belongings more.

Where as if the device was manufactured in China with cheap labor, the price would not be as bad.
I'd rather pay twice as much for a product that wouldn't be obsolete in a couple of years (if I'm lucky).
 
I see why people don't like arguing with you.

What's wrong with his argument? I mean, would you rather work 16 hours a day and have a home or sleep in a refrigerator box?
 
Factories were even less labor friendly in Europe some time ago, and if the rest of the world is gonna get anywhere they also gotta go through this nasty step of development.
 
Why do teenagers become prostitutes?
Why do parents sell their children into servitude?
Economic incentives. (Plus, the structures in place designed to protect children from abuse have in those instances failed.)
 
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034&t=1

This strengthens by resolve to minimize purchase of new electronics (I may get one of those cassette converter thingies for my car though :blush: (that you plug an MP3 player into).

I'm not going to quote the whole article but it's worth a read or at least a skim.

"The idea that ‘without sweatshops workers would starve to death' is a lie that corporate bosses use to cover their guilt."

This might shock your worldview, but there are people who think subsistence agriculture offers a significantly worse lifestyle with fewer economic opportunities than working like a dog in an unsafe factory. They're called factory workers who work like dogs in unsafe factories.
 
Narz, I guess you read the entire article? I read most of it (skimmed a few parts), so if you or anyone else feel like correcting me, go right ahead.

However bad anyone thinks this is, I can't really see that the Factory or their clients are actually evil.

The work schedule is bad, but again, not hellish:
Starts at 07:15, having to listen to supervisor, etc. Then 2 hours work. 10 minutes break. Another 2 hours work. Then 1.5 hours lunch/rest break. Then 2 hours work. 10 minutes break. Another 2 hours work. Finally, 50 minutes supper-break, and then 3.8 hours technically non-mandatory overtime. The workers choose to work the overtime (and the factory expects it [in fact, it seems workers must ask 'permission' to not work overtime]), because their hourly wages are to low to support a family on just 8 hours work a day. At 22:00 there's 15 minutes cleaning up and listening to the foreman. The workers dorm turns off the light at 23:00.

They do have extra overtime as well though: At least 4 times a month they work until 00:30 in the night. Note that all the overtime is paid.

No one is forced to work there. In fact, if I understand correctly, it seems the workers can quit at any time they choose, and nobody would physically stop them. However, if they expect to continue working there, it seems they can only enter/leave the factory compound roughly during lunch, and between 18:00 (just after supper, before overtime-work) and until 21:30 on most days, and between 07:00 and 21:30 on Sundays. Workers who stay out overnight are fined and fired.

(When thinking about it, if they stay out overnight they will actually not be allowed to enter the workplace until after they have lost several hours of work... Then again, it is supposedly possible for workers to live outside the factory compound and start and end work at the same times as other workers...)

It's damn boring work, and the working conditions set up will necessarily lead to faults in the products, and burnt out workers. Indeed, it seems the company is running with a yearly >90% turnaround of workers! The rules/discipline is a bit draconian, especially about not being allowed to talk or use the bathroom when needed. The humiliation of individual workers (having them clean the floors or bathrooms as punishment instead/in addition to fines) and destruction of some workers private property (mobile phones and mp3-players brought to the factory) is especially bad. And the pay is not a living wage, but more an alive-enabling wage.

The under-18 workers are students who for the most part works in the factories during their 3 month summer vacation. Granted, it's not much of a vacation, and if they're poor, they may even work up to 6 months (missing school in the process I assume). It can also be noted that it seems to be company policy to fire workers when they get to their late twenties, as more experienced adults are supposedly harder to control (Draconian-management-speak for 'they know their rights and their own value' or something I guess).

Note however, that the company is in fact in violation of Chinese law:
Article said:
These hours and conditions are blatantly illegal. Under China's laws, fourteen and 15 year-olds may not work, while 16 and 17-year-olds are classified as "non-adult" workers, who cannot work more than eight hours a day.

The foremen seems like power hungry bastards, and the factory seems to punish errors or 'bad behavior' through fining the workers in future pay. I can agree that the fines are quite high compared to the damages done, and they even use collective punishment, but we're not talking North Korea here.
Article said:
Fined for losing a finger: A worker from Shanxi Province had his index finger chopped off while operating a hole punch press machine while working on an internet camera. Management did rush him to the hospital for emergency treatment. However, after an investigation, management determined that the worker had disobeyed regulations related to operating the punch press machine, so the worker was fined 200 RMB ($29.26) and fired! The foreman and section chief in that department were also fined. Management then rehired the injured worker as a security guard.
Workers injured at KYE are generally fined, as management accuses them of violating regulations on safe production methods.
Yeah, the worker was fined (and a severely high fine at that), however the foreman and section chief was also fined, and the worker was rehired into another job!

Another good thing is that the company seems to pay the agreed upon/promised wages in full. Of course, they do use the fines already mentioned, and they always (illegally) withhold 2 weeks worth of salary (probably as an incentive for workers not to quit). Minimum wage in Guangdong province is split into five categories, with the highest one being ¥780 RMB per month. With overtime, workers at KYE earn ¥1200 to ¥1500 RMB per month. That is more or less a survivable wage in China these days.

As a summary:
Article said:
As things stand now, workers at the KYE factory told us they have absolutely no hope of entering the middle-class if things remain the way they are. To be a worker at KYE means you must learn to eke out a primitive existence, working enormous hours while earning below subsistence level wages, and having no access to the most fundamental human or labor rights protections.
These workers don't have an easy life and their current conditions don't really allow them to get anywhere in their lives. However, I'm sure this is far from the worst examples anyone can find of people having difficult lives, and in truth, it is quite what you would expect to find in late 19th century Europe, US and Canada. Boycotting this company is really not going to help anyone in the short or medium run. And probably not in the long run either.

In the absolute sense, it should be remembered that dirt cheap products made by poor people like this is what keeps people in the West content. Even though their salaries may not increase to much, at least the products they buy for those salaries are cheaper. However, China and other countries are getting richer. When this trend eventually reverses, people in the West will no longer be content.

Final note: I like how tables showing US trade-deficit with China and US industrial job losses was sprinkled throughout the article.
 
Back
Top Bottom