Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (deca)

[AlcTrv]

Originally posted by mrtn
Besides, isn't uruk hais and half orcs the same? That's always been my impression...

Orcs=/=Goblins
http://forums.middle-earthonline.co...ighlight=goblins+AND+orcs+AND+same#post186654

Necessary for Uruk-hai debate
http://forums.middle-earthonline.com/showthread.php?threadid=10940&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

As I understand it from many debates
Uruk-hai=Alpha-Orcs Uruk means orc, hai means people or race
Goblin-Men (or half-orcs) are inventions of Saurman, that could be used as spies and stuff

 

[PCHighway]

AlcTrv is right, they were a race of men and goblins, specifically bred by Saruman during the Third Age. However, these were also militant units and the defense of the hornburg were assailed by legions of them, noting how they were stronger than Orcs, but weaker than men. I can’t say if they were better than the Uruk-Hai, but I would imagine they were.

I too viewed the Wainriders as coming on wagons (A Wain is a cart\wagon). However it is said their "[...]nobility fought on chariots" -J.E.A.Tyler.
If you guys remember correctly, we have not agreed on the fashion of wonders yet. We haven’t agreed on whether to have few or many culture specific wonders. We did, however, agree on one specific wonder for each Civilization. We probably will have no more culture wonders unless there is a desire.
Isengard- Yes, way back when we did agree on Isengard being only a few cities civ. This is how it went:
Isengard starts with the Isengard City unit. This units has unassailable defense. No one unit in the game will be able to defeat it single handedly (best idea would be offensive armies). Not only does this add strategy, it gives much more depth to stealth attack units.
A wonder spawning multiple Isengard units, is a bad idea.
The Isengard civ will start with a unique palace, this Palace will spawn settlers every 40 turns, until it goes obsolete in a required tech to get into the 2nd era. Any other cities the civ will need to acquire by war. The civilization will also get no-maintenance factories, and earlier marketplaces to compensate for their weakness.

Compiled wonders, speak now or forever hold your peace.

Rohan- Meduseld
Capitalization, Spawns "Rohan Royal Guard" units every 7 turns. The wonder will increase the size of armies.

Northmen- Eldacar's Legacy
Costs 2 maintenance, -2 culture, a fair amount of shields, but doubles city defenses\doubles combat bonus against barbarians and halves unit upgrade cost.

The Shire- The Goldern Perch.
The hobbit adventurer (pathfinder?) will be made every 7 turns. +50% lux output. Acts as a Stealth Attack barrier
Requires: Three taverns, must be near a river.

Noldor- The Rings of Power
Effects: +1 trade in each trade producing tile. Treasury earns 5%

Sindar- Edhellond
+2 ship movement. Gives extra culture.

Gondor- Tower Beacons
Doubles combat bonus vrs Barbarians, Allows healing in enemy territory, requires 5 Keeps (second wall improvement) to build. (late third era wonder)

Arnor- Sceptre of Arnor(?)
Capitalization, creates ranger unit every 15 turns. (Fourth era wonder)

Numenor- The Voyages of Aldarion.
+1 ship movement, most be in a costal city, veteran sea units, Safe Sea Travel(?) late 2nd era.

Moriquendir- Halls of Thranduil
Gives extra Culture. Must be near a river. +50% Lux output. Tourist Attraction. Produces a Sylvan Longbowman (elven archer which requires no maintenance).

Isengard- Orthanc.
Produces Mannish Defense units. +50% Research Output.

Mordor- Chambers of Fire (Sammath Naur)
+3 production. +1 pollution. Increases chance of Leader Appearance. Allows Spy missions.

Dwarves- The Arkenstone
Increases chance of Leader Appearance. Doubles City Defenses. +50 Tax output. Build Larger Armies.

Angmar- The Barrow Downs
+50% Tax Output. Spawns Barrow Wights.

Easterlings- Reign of the Balchoth (?)
Allows healing in enemy territory. Increased Army Value. Halves Unit Upgrade Cost.

Southrons- The Stronghold of Umbar
Increases Trade in Water. Produces Veteran Naval Units. +2 Ship Movement. (Produces a stronger unbuildable variation of a Corsair ship every 30 turns.)

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by PCHighway
AlcTrv is right, they [i.e., half-orcs or goblin-men] were a race of men and goblins, specifically bred by Saruman during the Third Age. However, these were also militant units and the defense of the hornburg were assailed by legions of them, noting how they were stronger than Orcs, but weaker than men. I can’t say if they were better than the Uruk-Hai, but I would imagine they were.

Yes indeed. I thought we talked about this a few threads back, too, but I couldn't find it. No matter...

Originally posted by PCHighway I too viewed the Wainriders as coming on wagons (A Wain is a cart\wagon). However it is said their "[...]nobility fought on chariots" -J.E.A.Tyler.

Yeah, wagons. I guess a chariot could be a type of wagon, but no clue. Unless somebody makes Louis XXIV's four-wheeled chariot, we might not have anything wagon-ish anyway to use. We could, perhaps, all head over to that thread and bump it in the name of our mod!

Originally posted by PCHighway
If you guys remember correctly, we have not agreed on the fashion of wonders yet. We haven’t agreed on whether to have few or many culture specific wonders. We did, however, agree on one specific wonder for each Civilization. We probably will have no more culture wonders unless there is a desire.

Oh, I love having more culture-specific wonders! But I work with the options given:

6.) Who would like a Medium number of powerful wonders available to everyone, and many weak culture specific wonders?
The Last Conformist
Mithadan

Well, I voted anyway!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Isengard starts with the Isengard City unit. This units has unassailable defense. No one unit in the game will be able to defeat it single handedly (best idea would be offensive armies). Not only does this add strategy, it gives much more depth to stealth attack units.
A wonder spawning multiple Isengard units, is a bad idea.
The Isengard civ will start with a unique palace, this Palace will spawn settlers every 40 turns, until it goes obsolete in a required tech to get into the 2nd era. Any other cities the civ will need to acquire by war. The civilization will also get no-maintenance factories, and earlier marketplaces to compensate for their weakness.

Okay, sounds good to me!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Rohan- Meduseld
Capitalization, Spawns "Rohan Royal Guard" units every 7 turns. The wonder will increase the size of armies.

Sure! (Except I have no idea what capitalization does. Big deal. )

Originally posted by PCHighway
Northmen- Eldacar's Legacy
Costs 2 maintenance, -2 culture, a fair amount of shields, but doubles city defenses\doubles combat bonus against barbarians and halves unit upgrade cost.

Um hmm, we'll need a real nice Civilopedia entry for this one. What was his legacy? He was half-Gondorian, and only went North to gather forces to retake the seat of Gondor. Were we doing something extra-textual here?

Beorn will be included in the Northmen civ, no? Maybe we could think of an effect for a "House of Beorn" wonder. Maybe it would spawn Bear (shapeshifter) units or something fun?

Originally posted by PCHighway
The Shire- The Goldern Perch.
The hobbit adventurer (pathfinder?) will be made every 7 turns. +50% lux output. Acts as a Stealth Attack barrier
Requires: Three taverns, must be near a river.

Sure! Frankly, I think "burglar" would be the best name for this Hobbit dude. Yeah, I know only Biblo got called that by the Dwarves, but hey, it's such a great little title.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Noldor- The Rings of Power
Effects: +1 trade in each trade producing tile. Treasury earns 5%

Sure! (There isn't any wonder effect in Civ3 that can force peace treaties, like there was in Civ2, is there?)

Originally posted by PCHighway
Sindar- Edhellond
+2 ship movement. Gives extra culture.

OOOOH! I just had an epiphany!!! "THE GIRDLE OF MELIAN" is the Sindar wonder of wonders!!!! Of course, I'm cool with having Edhellond as a wonder (early Third age, late second, when exactly?), but the Sindar were at their most unified and powerful in the First Age, in Doriath, under Thingol. Dang, what kind of effects could we give to the Girdle of Melian???!!!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Gondor- Tower Beacons
Doubles combat bonus vrs Barbarians, Allows healing in enemy territory, requires 5 Keeps (second wall improvement) to build. (late third era wonder)

Sounds great!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Arnor- Sceptre of Arnor(?)
Capitalization, creates ranger unit every 15 turns. (Fourth era wonder)

I think the "Sceptre of Annúminas" sounds better. That's what it was called, apparently, anyhow. Alternately, we could have the "Palantír of Annúminas" with different, smarty-pants (science) effects, perhaps...

Originally posted by PCHighway
Numenor- The Voyages of Aldarion.
+1 ship movement, most be in a costal city, veteran sea units, Safe Sea Travel(?) late 2nd era.

Sounds great.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Moriquendir- Halls of Thranduil
Gives extra Culture. Must be near a river. +50% Lux output. Tourist Attraction. Produces a Sylvan Longbowman (elven archer which requires no maintenance).

First, there's no final "r" in "Moriquendi." Second, for Thranduil's elves I suggest (Sylvan) Spearmen, which (if I recall correctly) were the sort of warriors present at the Battle of the Five Armies. No defensive bonus, eh?

If SoCalian were still working with us (are you lurking somewhere, big guy?), he would be tooting his horn about Lorien. Now that I recall that Lorien would be counted among the Moriquendi (it was a Sylvan realm since the First Age, but ruled by Galadriel [a Noldorin elf] and Celeborn [a Sindarin elf] in the Third Age), it might be better to associate the "Golden Age" of the Moriquendi with Lorien somehow. Perhaps a "Mirror of Galadriel" scientific wonder or something...plus, I always associate Sylvan Archers with Lorien, so we would have them spewed out of her mirror or something else bizarre like that... Okay, well, uh, I'm talking crazy here. Try to ignore my bad ideas.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Isengard- Orthanc.
Produces Mannish Defense units. +50% Research Output.

Suuure. So long as we get half-orcs and infernal combustion pits somehow!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Mordor- Chambers of Fire (Sammath Naur)
+3 production. +1 pollution. Increases chance of Leader Appearance. Allows Spy missions.

Great idea.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Dwarves- The Arkenstone
Increases chance of Leader Appearance. Doubles City Defenses. +50 Tax output. Build Larger Armies.

Sounds great!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Angmar- The Barrow Downs
+50% Tax Output. Spawns Barrow Wights.

Sounds great!

Originally posted by PCHighway
Easterlings- Reign of the Balchoth (?)
Allows healing in enemy territory. Increased Army Value. Halves Unit Upgrade Cost.

If we wanted a First Age wonder for these guys we could have the "Treachery of Ulfang," with similar effects. If we want a fourth-era wonder, then your Balchoth idea is great. I don't like the "Reign" word, but am having trouble coming up with something better. "Balchoth" means "Powerful Horde" (I'm surmising, though), so maybe "the Hordes of the Balchoth" (?), even though that's redundant. "Invasion of the Balchoth"? Ugh.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Southrons- The Stronghold of Umbar
Increases Trade in Water. Produces Veteran Naval Units. +2 Ship Movement. (Produces a stronger unbuildable variation of a Corsair ship every 30 turns.)

Well, it really was called "the Haven of Umbar" (although for some reason, I always pluralise it to "havens"). Lets call it that, pretty please. I don't think a "haven" has to be positive in the "good vs. evil" sense, just in the sense of "good for harbouring ships" sense, even if those ships are Corsair ships.

 

[The Last Conformist]

"Balchoth" is simply balc "horrible" plus hoth "horde, uncivilized people". Westron-Sindarin hybrid compound, where the Westron bit is a Sindarin loan to boot (S balch "horrible").

The Girdle of Melian ought to help with defense - how 'bout creating an unbuildable +25% defense improvement in every city? Would probably go obsolete within an Age or so.

 

[Mithadan]

Ah, a Westron-Sindarin compound. No wonder I was befuddled.

Yes, the Girdle of Melian would go obsolete at the end of the First Age, roundabouts. I think the defensive bonus it would offer would need to be pretty much gigantic!

 

[mrtn]

Quotes from PCH:

Northmen- Eldacar's Legacy
Costs 2 maintenance, -2 culture, a fair amount of shields, but doubles city defenses\doubles combat bonus against barbarians and halves unit upgrade cost.

-2 culture? Would this decrease culture?

Gondor- Tower Beacons
Doubles combat bonus vrs Barbarians, Allows healing in enemy territory, requires 5 Keeps (second wall improvement) to build. (late third era wonder)

You don't have many barbarians to battle in the third era... So if it is redundant it's a bad idea.
While we're on gondor, will the White Tree be a High Mannish wonder?

I think that the Easterners could use the vanilla chariot.

The Isengard civ will start with a unique palace, this Palace will spawn settlers every 40 turns, until it goes obsolete in a required tech to get into the 2nd era.

Can you start with different palaces? Besides, this "forces" Isengard to go with 0% science the first era, and that's a bad idea. Why not just let it* spawn settlers the whole game? Most of those settlers will just hide in the city, as the land will be taken by other civs.
*it may not be the palace here, if that don't work. But it could be a very cheap small wonder, maybe.

Isengard starts with the Isengard City unit.

I know this is probably my idea in the first place, but how does it work in practice? Is it Start Unit 2, or will this give Orthancs to everyone, regardless of if they can build it (this is my guess)? I fear we have to spawn it in some way.

I also think that Isengard should get a fourth era wonder that spawns half orcs quite often. This way Isengard will get more than one civ specific wonder, but so what? This civ is already special in all sorts of ways.

 

[the mormegil]

OOOOH! I just had an epiphany!!!

Nice. Girdle of Melian sounds a lot better than wotsit of dudernamar which I've never heard of. Don't you think it would need to be more than 25% bonus though? I don't know how this compares to defense bonus imps because I wasn't there when you did them.

Besides, this "forces" Isengard to go with 0% science the first era

What's all that about?

Is it Start Unit 2, or will this give Orthancs to everyone, regardless of if they can build it (this is my guess)?

You can choose what units a civ starts with I think. If that's what you mean.

 

[PCHighway]

mrtn-
-2 culture? Would this decrease culture?
You don't have many barbarians to battle in the third era... So if it is redundant it's a bad idea.
While we're on gondor, will the White Tree be a High Mannish wonder?

As for Gondor, they did not build the white tree, it was a gift from the elves in Valinor, IIRC. You could attribute it to Isildur for saving it, but is that really a wonder? Is a white tree really a wonder? I view it as a sign as heraldry rather than a sign of Gondors might.
Yes -2 culture represents the Kinstrife of Gondor. You can not have a wonder called “Eldacar’s Legacy” without taking away from culture.
There are plenty of barbarians, especially since they will be able spawn on Mountains, Dark Forest, Marshes, Desert, and possibly Tundra p), all of these are un-settle able. How strong we make them, is up to a vote later. But to remind you:

mrtn wrote on Dec 05, 2003-
I agree. If one can't deal with these barbarians, one can always step down a level in difficulty.
And you can always get rid of them with culture....

mrtn-
I think that the Easterners could use the vanilla chariot.

I think that is a bad idea. That is not how I imagined them.

mrtn-
Can you start with different palaces? Besides, this "forces" Isengard to go with 0% science the first era, and that's a bad idea. Why not just let it* spawn settlers the whole game? Most of those settlers will just hide in the city, as the land will be taken by other civs.
*it may not be the palace here, if that don't work. But it could be a very cheap small wonder, maybe.

You talking about anarchy or something? 0% science?
Spawn settlers the whole game? If we have 600 turns in games, we then have 15 cities. What is the point of a “one city empire” at this point? Isengard should get no more than 4 cities without taking them in military moves. Other wise all these ‘bonuses’ you talked about are lost and useless. May as well make the civilizations just like all the rest. Settlers hiding in the city? More like Isengard becomes a colonization civ with cities on other continents, or hidden in any gap they find.

No, we can’t have more than one palace to start with. But a new palace that gives capitalization is easy. Obviously it would be nearly free, costing only 10 shields but certainly should be a new wonder.
Now that you mention it, will the AI build a wonder if it has capitalization checked?

mrtn- I know this is probably my idea in the first place, but how does it work in practice? Is it Start Unit 2, or will this give Orthancs to everyone, regardless of if they can build it (this is my guess)? I fear we have to spawn it in some way.

Huh? We will have to have custom scenario properties. For this and many other aspects of the mod. Obviously, most other mods have this.

mrtn- I also think that Isengard should get a fourth era wonder that spawns half orcs quite often. This way Isengard will get more than one civ specific wonder, but so what? This civ is already special in all sorts of ways.

Yes, it is special in all sorts of ways. It relies on a unique factory line, better low cost improvements, it is too special! Why not just let all of Isengards barracks spawn no maintence units? We could do a lot, but I don’t see the need for a Isengard 4th era wonder. Especially since Isengard did nothing more special than the other civs in the 4th era, besides betray the good guys. They will be able to build half orcs, isn’t that enough? Do they really need a wonder that spawn units they can build anyway?
We could build a wonder to signify their 'betrayal', which might be in order. But why should it give free units?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by PCHighway
...Yes -2 culture represents the Kinstrife of Gondor. You can not have a wonder called “Eldacar’s Legacy” without taking away from culture. ...

I don't like the idea of decreasing culture. This goes against a bunch of wonder-related stuff. It is reason enough for me not only to not build the wonder, but not play as the Northmen at all. It's better to rename the wonder than include such a whacky idea.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...You talking about anarchy or something? 0% science?
Spawn settlers the whole game? If we have 600 turns in games, we then have 15 cities. What is the point of a “one city empire” at this point? Isengard should get no more than 4 cities without taking them in military moves. Other wise all these ‘bonuses’ you talked about are lost and useless. May as well make the civilizations just like all the rest. Settlers hiding in the city? More like Isengard becomes a colonization civ with cities on other continents, or hidden in any gap they find.

If Isengard puts all it's money into science it gets through the first era in 100 turns or something. This equals 3 settlers. If Isengard don't study at all it will stay "indefinitely" in the first era, and getting a settler every 40th turn.
You wont become a colonization civ with one new settler every 40th turn, as 90% of all cities are built in the first era.

Originally posted by PCHighway
...No, we can’t have more than one palace to start with. But a new palace that gives capitalization is easy. Obviously it would be nearly free, costing only 10 shields but certainly should be a new wonder...

So it isn't a palace then, but a wonder? You should call a spade a spade.


I don't get what that december quote has got to do with anything.

 

[PCHighway]

mrtn-
I don't like the idea of decreasing culture. This goes against a bunch of wonder-related stuff. It is reason enough for me not only to not build the wonder, but not play as the Northmen at all. It's better to rename the wonder than include such a whacky idea.

I like the idea (which is apparent) And it is commonly used throughout other mods! I even remember it in a conquest. To have such a powerful wonder, all you need is to have is a temple and hopefully by then you have something like that in the city. IMO It is not a real crazy idea, it just uses something unique that the player needs to be aware of.

mrtn-
If Isengard puts all it's money into science it gets through the first era in 100 turns or something. This equals 3 settlers. If Isengard don't study at all it will stay "indefinitely" in the first era, and getting a settler every 40th turn.
You wont become a colonization civ with one new settler every 40th turn, as 90% of all cities are built in the first era.
So it isn't a palace then, but a wonder? You should call a spade a spade.

It can’t be, as civ3 does not allow civ specific palaces. They should start with this improvement (sucker). Moreover, I believe I said earlier that this wonder will include Capitalization, which will mean that whatever city is building it, they will be compensated during said time. Capitalization acts as wealth. I’m not sure that this has been done before, but if it works as it should (as I think, that is), then it will be important.

I agree, you won’t become a colonization civ, but the AI will. They will use every means possible (just like the current civs in game now) to gain cities. When they have 4 settlers hanging around, you can bet they will go found as man cities as possible. 40 turns, while a large amount of time, isn’t really that much. It takes about 20 turns to build a settler in the beginning.
You don’t need to worry about taking time building settlers. You can concentrate on exploration (they should start with some type of build-able warrior defense scout).
This will help in where exactly you choose to found your city. I would say you get ‘hedged in’ by other civs in a varying 100-200 turns, which goes fairly quickly in the beginning ages. Settlers should stop at this point. So we will need to plan it with techs, like this.
An average of 3 other cities besides your start city(ies).
Moreover, I also mentioned how Isengard should start with 2 settlers. One ‘special’ immobile settler (to ensure the super unit is in Isengard) and another more-regular one. We will have to research this, as we don’t want the civ to settle with the mobile one, and be stuck with the immobile one in their city.

The quote references that at one point you agree that there will be many barbarians, common for longer than they should (thanks to unsettle able terrain).
I just explained why we should have the barbarian bonus for this civ, which you seemed to magically forget. Do you agree or not? I don’t want you saying “This wonder idea is stupid” 2 days before the beta.
I don't see the Barbarian Combat Bonus redundant, as (and I may very well be wrong) we have no generic wonders that will have this bonus.

 

[The Last Conformist]

If we want to force Isengard to stay at 4-5 cities without conquest, they could get 3-4 free starting settlers, but no ability whatsoever to build new ones! Of course, this would require some sort of penalties to stop them from being uber-powerful early on, or everyone else could also get a few free starting settlers.

 

[embryodead]

Isengard, simple solutions:
- make the settler-producing wonder produce settlers at some acceptable rate, but also make it obsolete with an early tech
- or make the settler upgrade to simple military unit (without requirements) with a tech.
I sort of skipped some of the topics lately, so I'm sorry if this was proposed already...

 

[the mormegil]

Isengard should get no more than 4 cities

Why 4? Why not just 1?

 

[The Last Conformist]

The problem with both of those is that a human Isengard player will do everything in his/her might to avoid hitting that tech till he/she has run out of space to expand into.

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by the mormegil
Why 4? Why not just 1?

Because of Dunland, I think. And maybe for gameplay reasons???

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
The problem with both of those is that a human Isengard player will do everything in his/her might to avoid hitting that tech till he/she has run out of space to expand into.

I don't suppose there's any way to keep the human player in the dark about which tech obsolesces the settlers? (Or at least forces the player to look in the editor for the answer?)

 

[embryodead]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
The problem with both of those is that a human Isengard player will do everything in his/her might to avoid hitting that tech till he/she has run out of space to expand into.

But aren't things becoming obsolete when any player hits that tech? Secondly, this may be an early obstacle, so to speak, a tech that is the only option.

 

[Celeborn]

Wonders become redundent when anybody researches the tech that renders it as such... For this reason Isengard can stop its Settler wonder from becoming obselete...

So if we make a cheap non-era wonder for Isengard that makes settlers, it should work out just fine...

Will we not have The Mines of Moria for a Dwarven wonder???

It just seems wrong not to have it...

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by Celeborn
Wonders become redundent when anybody researches the tech that renders it as such... For this reason Isengard can stop its Settler wonder from becoming obselete...

You mean cannot, right?

Originally posted by Celeborn
Will we not have The Mines of Moria for a Dwarven wonder???

It just seems wrong not to have it...

Whoops. But won't Moria be a city? I guess it would be a little redundant having the Mines of Moria built in Moria, but also fitting. And heck, a little redundancy never hurt nobody.

Thing is, though, we might find that most of the wonders we come up with (came up with?) would be better off being civ- or culture-specific. My big worry is finding generic names for all the LotR-style Great Wonders that will be buildable by most all civs. Like, I don't really think it's right having Rohan, say, building Hornblower's Farms, or having the Shire, say, building Elostirion... Yeah, I know in epic civ we have the Mongols building the Hanging Gardens (of Babylon), but that's silly, ain't it? I mean, how counterfactual do we really want to go with this mod of ours? It's pretty counterfactual as it is, what with a random map, and Third-Age civs in the first era -- but that's pretty much not moddable...

Course I'm real tired right now, so that might just be the fatigue talking.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by embryodead


But aren't things becoming obsolete when any player hits that tech? Secondly, this may be an early obstacle, so to speak, a tech that is the only option.

Not as far as I know. If you have the Great Library, then that stops working when you get Education. If you get it through the GL this means that two other civs have researched it already.

I agree with Mithadan that it's strange to have a city called Moria and a wonder also called Moria.

 

[Celeborn]

You mean cannot, right?

Whoops... My bad...

I tought we hve Moria (city) in the mod by it's Dwarven name ie. Kazad-dúm...

In which case we could have the Mines of Moria... But if there isnt enough support for this then no-worries...