Militarist plus what?

[Roundman]

Yeah, the Celts are very good, I agree. I don't think I've ever played the Germans. I'm put off by the UU. It must be one of the most useless.

I don't understand how you can say the Panzer is useless. The only downside to it is that it comes relatively late in the game. If your games get to that point (as my games tend to), they're very powerful (especially if you use them to trigger your GA and then go into mobilization). I have crushed many AI empires with Panzers, which are effective against everything up to Mechanized Infantry. I'd put them close to the top. Other than the Gallic Swordsman, the Mounted Warrior, the Chinese Rider, the Immortal, and maybe the Berzerker and Sipahi I'm hard pressed to think of a better UU.

 

[Roundman]

As for the topic of the thread, I give another vote for Germany. They start out with strong units (Archers & Spears), and can immediately research Iron Working for early Swordsmen. If you happen to start near Ivory, then the SoZ can turn Germany into an early game wrecking ball.

The Scientific trait gives you some cheap culture buildings as well as free techs to start each age. This allows you to consolidate your territory fairly quickly with libraries, and it enables you to be flexible in your approach to the game. You can fight wars when you need to (supported by cheap walls and barracks, as well as swifter promotions), and you can consolidate your holdings and keep up in the tech race.

If you can stay in the running until the late Industrial period, I've found the Panzer to be a very powerful UU as detailed above. It can allow you to demolish civs that are in tech parity with you, especially if it triggers a Golden Age to allow your factory cities to churn out a Panzer every other turn.

The biggest downside to Germany that I've found (keeping in mind that I play on Monarch) are that the Germans tend to bog down in the early Middle Ages, when many other civs are getting their UUs and hitting their GAs. My recommendation is that German players who find themselves starting next to the Dutch, the Vikings, or any civ with a Knight replacement try to significantly weaken those civs early.

 

[Theov]

The Panzer (+1 movement, zoc, blitz) is a very powerful unit. And because you're MIL you get leaders more often.
Panzer armies are near-unstoppable and can send an AI civ back to the stone age.

A good point can be made for the Aztecs, their UU is nothing that will win awards, but the extra speed is nice for scouting.
The AGR and MIL combo though; you grow faster and start with pottery.

The COM Romans start with the alphabet, have a great UU, have lower corruption and more income and are MIL too.

 

[walletta]

I don't understand how you can say the Panzer is useless. The only downside to it is that it comes relatively late in the game. If your games get to that point (as my games tend to), they're very powerful (especially if you use them to trigger your GA and then go into mobilization). I have crushed many AI empires with Panzers, which are effective against everything up to Mechanized Infantry. I'd put them close to the top. Other than the Gallic Swordsman, the Mounted Warrior, the Chinese Rider, the Immortal, and maybe the Berzerker and Sipahi I'm hard pressed to think of a better UU.

That's six that are better! Yes, it's the lateness I don't like.

 

[Roundman]

That's six that are better! Yes, it's the lateness I don't like.

I look at it the other way- out of 31 UUs, the Panzer is in the top 5 (or, at worst, the top 7). I'm in the minority, but I prefer the Panzer to the Immortal due to speed. I listed the Immortal as being better due to general consensus.

Lateness is an issue to consider- as great as the Panzer is, it isn't as game changing as a horde of Mounted Warriors of Gallic Swordsman. Even putting that aside, it's not reasonable to me to call the Panzer useless considering that there are UUs like the Carrack in the game.

 

[Theov]

I look at it the other way- out of 31 UUs, the Panzer is in the top 5 (or, at worst, the top 7). I'm in the minority, but I prefer the Panzer to the Immortal due to speed. I listed the Immortal as being better due to general consensus.

Lateness is an issue to consider- as great as the Panzer is, it isn't as game changing as a horde of Mounted Warriors of Gallic Swordsman. Even putting that aside, it's not reasonable to me to call the Panzer useless considering that there are UUs like the Carrack in the game.

the Carrack allows you to travel oceans before everyone else - giving you the chance to trade techs with everyone and to expand to empty islands/continents.
On continent or archipelago maps, this can be very very useful.

 

[walletta]

I look at it the other way- out of 31 UUs, the Panzer is in the top 5 (or, at worst, the top 7). I'm in the minority, but I prefer the Panzer to the Immortal due to speed. I listed the Immortal as being better due to general consensus.

Lateness is an issue to consider- as great as the Panzer is, it isn't as game changing as a horde of Mounted Warriors of Gallic Swordsman. Even putting that aside, it's not reasonable to me to call the Panzer useless considering that there are UUs like the Carrack in the game.

Well, OK, 'useless' might be a bit strong but in a lot of games it will be because the decisive phase will be over.

 

[Roundman]

the Carrack allows you to travel oceans before everyone else - giving you the chance to trade techs with everyone and to expand to empty islands/continents.
On continent or archipelago maps, this can be very very useful.

Good point- which goes to show that there aren't any truly useless UUs.

 

[justanick]

How about the F15?

 

[tjs282]

Take a tip from a master - never play random maps. Always stack the odds heavily in your favour

From which I infer that your definition of 'mastery' is (how shall I put it politely?) rather less... rigorous than mine...

Or perhaps that I am more of a than you are...

 

[walletta]

Just kidding tjs282. I'm still a noob here.

 

[Lord AJ]

I think you refer to the bonus in base commerce, but that is 2 in cities and 3 in metropolises. So metropolises give 6 base commerce before any further increasement from resources, seafaring, river, colossus, government or golden age apply. I hope i did not forget anything.
.

Are you sure the Commerce bonus is cumulative?

 

[justanick]

Are you sure the Commerce bonus is cumulative?

Yes. The german wiki detailed it.

http://wiki.civforum.de/wiki/Stadtfeldertrag_(Civ3)

 

[Theov]

How about the F15?

I couldn't tell you, never built one

 

[Lord AJ]

Yes. The german wiki detailed it.

http://wiki.civforum.de/wiki/Stadtfeldertrag_(Civ3)

Can't read German but I take your word for it.

 

[Desertsnow]

F-15 is probably the single most useless UU in the game.

 

[Nathiri]

Ive heard it is quite useful especially when the AI have a large amount of planes. I myself havent used them much as I dont really play America.

 

[justanick]

The problem with the F15 (beside its late availablity) is the lack of improvement in its strenghts. The fighting values remain constant, so it has no direct advantage against AIs with many planes.

The low bombardement value of 1 times 3 has been increased to 2 times 6 and been augmented with leathal land bombardement and stealth attack. So it can choose which unit of a stack it will attack, most notably it can attack transport ships and sink them.

Except the ability for stealth attack the F15 has no singnificant advantage over the jet fighter. The bomber has a bombardement value of 3 times 12, the stealth fighter of 2 times 6, the stealth bomber of 3 times 18. The later 2 can perform stealth attacks aswell. The F15 is bested at bombardment by many alternatives but it cannot best the regular jet fighter in air to air combat. The most significant advantage the F15 creates is reducing the penalty for not having the tech for the regular stealth planes.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

been augmented with leathal land bombardement and stealth attack. So it can choose which unit of a stack it will attack, most notably it can attack transport ships and sink them.

Except Stealth Attack is broken and won't work for air units, so the F-15 doesn't even get that benefit.

 

[tjs282]

leathal land bombardement and stealth attack. So it can choose which unit of a stack it will attack, most notably it can attack transport ships and sink them

Even if stealth attack for planes wasn't broken, please explain how this would work...? Shurely it would rather need lethal sea bombardment...? Yes, Justanick made a mistake! Ha! He is not omniscient!

Vaguely on topic, I'm having a go at the current COTM, seeing as it's just about my level (Americans, Monarch). I decided I'd rather have my GA sometime before the Modern Age, since I'm hoping to have the game won (long) before then... So I'm building GWonders instead...