In addition to @Dawnpromise , I can't remember when was the last time I was able to make Pledge of Protection early on. I'm pretty sure it wasn't during supply cap times. So what's the point of it? Maybe just give AI some maluses towards it.
Military Supply Reduction From Tech level
- Thread starter Bobisback
- Start date
Did something happen to the supply cap during these latest patches, I seem to hit the roof much earlier these days? I usually build most of the buildings rasing the cap, but still it hits the roof in no time - one really has to satisfy with having just a few units around. I often find myself chosing between a underdeveloped navy or land army, it's seems one can't have enough of both at the same time. I can't say I enjoy it, but perhaps it takes more evaluation before I can be really certain of this being a good thing or not.
After playing several games with the new supply cap system after being gone for a year here is my initial thought: it is too restrictive if you are not playing a conquest style game without enough proactive ways to increase the cap. Every game I've played as a passive style I've only been able to field a very small offensive military. I'm fine that you have to think about your supply cap more now, but I feel like if you focus on building every military building at your tech level you should actually be able to field a decent army.
Two games ago I played an Authority, Fealty, Imperialism, Imperialism game with Japan. Then I had plenty of supply. But I feel like most of my extra supply was due to conquering my neighbor. So I ended up with 90+ supply in the modern era, plenty of supply. But I'm in the middle of a Netherlands game, and am just about to get Sea Beggars. But I I'm at my supply cap of 16/16 with six cities. So either my offensive army will be a mix of about 6 naval units, and 4 land units, or I'm going to have to leave my home cities pretty much defenseless.
Thinking about it more, it actually seems like navies are a bit of a problem for the supply cap. If I didn't need a navy, 10-12 units would probably be fine. But trying to get a mix of land/sea units really restricts what you can field. Would it be possible for lighthouses, harbors and other sea building provide even more supply? Or maybe defensive buildings provide 10% population increase and +1 unit supply? It just seems like the only solution now is to build lots of cities with barracks/armories etc. It would be nice if there was a better way to buff up fewer big cities.
Two games ago I played an Authority, Fealty, Imperialism, Imperialism game with Japan. Then I had plenty of supply. But I feel like most of my extra supply was due to conquering my neighbor. So I ended up with 90+ supply in the modern era, plenty of supply. But I'm in the middle of a Netherlands game, and am just about to get Sea Beggars. But I I'm at my supply cap of 16/16 with six cities. So either my offensive army will be a mix of about 6 naval units, and 4 land units, or I'm going to have to leave my home cities pretty much defenseless.
Thinking about it more, it actually seems like navies are a bit of a problem for the supply cap. If I didn't need a navy, 10-12 units would probably be fine. But trying to get a mix of land/sea units really restricts what you can field. Would it be possible for lighthouses, harbors and other sea building provide even more supply? Or maybe defensive buildings provide 10% population increase and +1 unit supply? It just seems like the only solution now is to build lots of cities with barracks/armories etc. It would be nice if there was a better way to buff up fewer big cities.
tu_79
Deity
I've played peacefully for a long time and even without filling supply limit, I've had no problem defending and even conquering some neighboring cities.
You are probably not growing enough.
You are probably not growing enough.
Txurce
Deity
His problem seems to have to do when circumstances call for a legitimate navy, on top of a reasonable defensive land force, and you are not going Authority/Dominance. It's not an issue when playing Progress/Carthage, but it can be an issue when playing Tradition Netherlands (especially post-Sea Beggars). I think the cap rules should be flexed to support more sea-focused tall civs. If separate caps are possible, this clould be one solution. Otherwise, it's hard to address the issue without just loosening the cap (which I agree is in a pretty good place overall).
tu_79
Deity
I don't know about Netherlands. I just played a tradition Byzantium in Emperor and I managed to stop incoming armies with 12 out of 22 units, five cities. Then I earned enough gold to fill my supply and took on China, the huge. I was helped by a technological superior Portugal, but isn't it the point of playing in disadvantage?
What I cannot do yet is defending against two neighboring by land empires at the same time. Being attacked by being considered weak is a death sentence most likely.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
The problem is the navy. On water tile heavy maps you need much more ships. Something you can greatly ignore on pangea or even communitas maps.
I would suggest a scattered land/water tile modifer for the supply cap.
More water tiles and more shatterd land leads to a higher base cap.
I would suggest a scattered land/water tile modifer for the supply cap.
More water tiles and more shatterd land leads to a higher base cap.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
I'd prefer if buildings that give extra supply cap % of your population, would also give a base +1 to the cap.
Also, IIRC lighthouses don't affect supply cap, but I'd prefer if they did increase it, simply to reflect that having coastal cities means you need more supply cap.
Also, IIRC lighthouses don't affect supply cap, but I'd prefer if they did increase it, simply to reflect that having coastal cities means you need more supply cap.
tu_79
Deity
Harbors and Seaports increase supply limit. Lighthouses not, as G doesn't want a too early navy. It could make defense too difficult without catapults. You don't need a fleet in every sea. Use one trirreme and one or two siege units to protect one coast, and your navy on the other. Or avoid having more than one coast.
kawyua
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
- Messages
- 226
For anyone that has rushed terracota army, the military supply reduction from tech becomes pretty trivialized. That wonder alone is the reason I find so much success with early game warmongers even without going authority. 1 supply per city is insane along with the free copy of unique units. I don't understand how wonders are not part of this conversation.
Txurce
Deity
I don't think anyone is having a problem with supply at the stage where one trireme would do the job. It's once the AI builds up their fleets that a tall civ needs more numbers -- especially since there's no defensive terrain in the water. And "avoid having more than one coast" is obviously heavily map-dependent.
Txurce
Deity
I think there's an inherent imbalance to land vs sea, in that you need to have x land units to defend your territory, leaving a limited number for the sea. Land always comes first. This is why I'd prefer, if possible, to have an additional method of adding naval units.That said, I'm now playing on Immortal again, and do get by with the present supply cap. The only insuperable problem I have is dealing with runaways; at some point, they can overwhelm you, especially on the water.
This usually takes me to a broader complaint about the relative difficulty of winning while going tall in these circumstances. But this time, your last sentence finally broke through my thick skull. If my game's circumstances evolve in such a way that the guy on the other continent can only be stopped with a large force, then I have to adjust, forget about my original tall/Tradition strategy, and metastasize my empire. There is more than enough time from Astronomy or so to do it.
This is a fair critique, we could add more supply to coastal buildings. Maybe we could also add some supply to the great lighthouse
tu_79
Deity
There's a few wonders that give supply limit. You may be ignoring them because you are tall and you want to win culture or science... well, you shouldn't. If you want your army to be relevant, even when being a small empire, you can: fight often so you gain great generals, build every military building, focus on your cities growth and build military wonders. I can't remember them all, but Terracotta gives 1 supply per city and great wall gives 3 or so. Mid game, I'd swear there's one wonder giving 10 supply.
Honestly, I don't think it's a matter of buildings, I just think the supply-loss from researching techs is too big, especially combined with how fast your supply-cap drops from war weariness. I mean even with the best infrastructure available, 20 turns into war and you suddenly can't supply garrisoning your cities.
matlajs
King
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2015
- Messages
- 807
Runaway AI loves build Himeji, Red Fort And Brandenburg gate.
I too think the supply system is fairly restrictive as of right now (I almost always play emperor and go for authority>fealty 95% of the times and on Huge maps, so barracks/armory and castles are always built asap, walls I might delay a bit), and while fielding a defensive force is easy on maps with bottlenecks, any big map where you are not only interested in defensive bottlenecks or just defending yourself against a superior force/2 sided war are going to be a nightmare, because as soon as you start incurring loses its a downward spiral of reduced cap, and with a reduced cap defending is always harder. The most painful part is trying to stop a runaway that is relatively far, as your big army being far away leaves you very vulnerable. I also feel civs like the Huns or units like the Sea beggars are on the losing side with this, as creating a new unit that is at 50% and unpromoted is just asking for it to get beaten into submission as soon as its born, though I don't know if losing these counts toward reduced supply cap from losses.
While the wonders do help out a lot in this regard , I think it creates a situation (at least for me) where I will feel forced to get terracota army (for wide) and brandenburg (great for tall), or capture the cities where they were built, so I can avoid being a situation where I suddenly hit a cap problem from losses/tech. Also kind of makes me avoid rationalism, or at least bulbing scientist with faith because my cap will not be able to keep up with my tech (too much tech for the population/hammers available to keep up late game military buildings built, which take a fair amount of turns).
On the same topic, how do you guys manage when playing the Huns? I already had some trouble with the cap when you were able to gift units at 50%hp to cs, but now that they need to be at full health from what I read on the latest patch notes I kind of feel like avoiding doing last hits with chivalry units, which is bothersome because they can usually safely retreat and avoid me loses that I could incur with melee units.
While the wonders do help out a lot in this regard , I think it creates a situation (at least for me) where I will feel forced to get terracota army (for wide) and brandenburg (great for tall), or capture the cities where they were built, so I can avoid being a situation where I suddenly hit a cap problem from losses/tech. Also kind of makes me avoid rationalism, or at least bulbing scientist with faith because my cap will not be able to keep up with my tech (too much tech for the population/hammers available to keep up late game military buildings built, which take a fair amount of turns).
On the same topic, how do you guys manage when playing the Huns? I already had some trouble with the cap when you were able to gift units at 50%hp to cs, but now that they need to be at full health from what I read on the latest patch notes I kind of feel like avoiding doing last hits with chivalry units, which is bothersome because they can usually safely retreat and avoid me loses that I could incur with melee units.
tu_79
Deity
Maybe here's the difference, I only play small-standard.
Txurce
Deity
These suggestions are valid, but they're not enough for players with persistent cap issues. Building military buildings is a de facto requirement that pretty much every complainer lists as something they already do. Great Generals are almost a non-factor if you're mainly fighting in the water (which is almost wholly my issue). And there is major competition for the military Wonders.
This is a great point that I forgot to mention: the irony of getting into cap trouble due to teching for a military edge vs a larger opponent who won't go down quickly. But there's also something very frustrating from a gameplay perspective in the impactful downside to an essential, positive action like advancing through the tech chart.