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Mines vs Quarries

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by HungryForFood, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    I've been playing VP for a while, and I can't help but notice that Quarries feel weak in the late game, so using SQLiteSpy I compiled all of their yields they can get. I did not include Policies as both are affected exactly the same way. Also not counting resource yields when unimproved and from buildings.

    Mines
    Unlocks at Mining.
    Can be built on resources, and any hill.
    1 :c5production: base yield
    0 to 1 :c5production: for connecting resource, and sometimes 1 of another yield on top of that, eg Gems get 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold: from connecting)
    1 :c5production: from Forge
    1 :c5production: at Machinery
    1 :c5production: at Steam Power
    1 :c5production: at Industrialisation (no fresh water) or Steel (fresh water)

    Total: Ranges from 5 to 6 :c5production:, as well as 1 of another yield for certain resources
    Note: Russia gets Ostrog, which gives another 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:, and then another 1 of both on top for Strategic Resources. Earth Mother gives 1 :c5gold: and 1 :c5faith:.

    Quarries
    Unlocks at Construction.
    May only be built to connect resources
    0 :c5production: base yield.
    0 to 2 :c5production: for connecting resources (max 2 :c5production: for Stone and Marble, min 0 :c5production: for Uranium and Amber, can get 1 or 2 other yields. Examples: Jade gets 1 :c5production: 1 :c5culture:, Uranium gets 0 :c5production: 1 :c5science:, Amber gets 0 :c5production: 2 :c5gold:)
    1 :c5production: at Steel (no fresh water) or Electricity (fresh water)
    1 :c5production: at Dynamite (no fresh water) or Steam Power (fresh water)
    Bonus 1 :c5production: from God of Craftsmen belief

    Total: Ranges from 2 to 5 :c5production:, as well as 1 of another yield for certain resources.
    Note: Russia's Ostrog only affects Uranium. God of Craftsmen gives 1 Production and 1 Faith.

    To make Quarries equivalent to a regular hill Mine, you would need a Stone or Marble, and the God of Craftsmen belief as well. Since Quarries are rarer and resource dependent, shouldn't they be stronger rather than weaker? Not to mention they unlock at a later tech.

    I think Quarries should get the same amount of :c5production: from technologies as Mines. Perhaps 1 :c5production: in one of the Renaissance techs.

    Since Forge gives 1 :c5production: to Mines, Quarries should get 1 :c5production: from a building too. Stone Works is an obvious choice, but is that too early in the game?

    As you can't control the placement of Quarries, perhaps there should be no difference from fresh water.

    Side note, Oil Wells give 4 :c5production: 3 :c5gold: at most by game end. Yields from Oil are not increased by buildings (except Ostrog), and no Policy affects Oil Wells. Perhaps some love here?
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    What we are missing is a building that enhances quarries. There are also no buildings enhancing pastures, by the way.

    On the other hand, those are good places for setting up some great people tile improvements, since very little is lost.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The new agribusiness is supposed to enhance pastures I believe
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Stable also say hello.

    Stone works enhance quarries. Quarries do fall off a bit, but that’s largely by design. Gotta have somewhere for GPTI.

    G
     
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I'm not exactly sure that this argument works...GPTI are just by the fact of the matter superior tiles; while you might be picky about which kind of GPTI to put on what kind of terrain or resource for a variety of reasons, the existence of GPTI is not a reason for Quarries to function in a different manner than other tiles from a balance perspective. It's precisely when there aren't Quarry tiles around that the placement of GPTI gets interesting because you want to maximize output without spurning good regular tiles that would be quite good as regular tiles. Omitting Quarries from this is...odd.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Stable enhances horses, catle and sheep, but no pastures. Stone works enhances stone, marble, salt and lapis?, but no quarries.
     
  7. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    More to the point - Stable's bonus is higher than Stone Works' bonus, if I remember correctly, even if it is a rather expensive building, I do find that it pays off.
     
  8. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    That's not intuitive at all.
     
  9. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Stone Works already buffs the non-luxury quarry resource (Stone) and most luxury mining resources have fairly early bonus buildings; from memory Amber at Temple might be the latest. If any building is going to buff quarries it should probably be a something in the mid-game.

    Two solid options that come to mind, and one slightly radical option:
    1. Windmills add 1:c5production: to quarries. The Forge equivalent solution.
    2. Temples add 1:c5gold: to quarries. Differentiates quarries from mines and makes some real world sense; Temples need building material.
    3. Temples add 1:c5culture: to quarries. Quarries start to get interesting.
     
  10. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    There are certain resources that require a quarry but that do not unlock a Stone Works. I'd love it if that were changed.

    If quarry resources are meant to be ideal spots for GPTI later in the game, it'd be nice if the pantheon placed its bonuses on the resource and not the quarry.

    I also feel quarry resources are a bit weak, which is strange given how important stone was to humanity's early days.
     
  11. Giza

    Giza Chieftain

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    I took God of Craftsman for the first time since the pantheon and quarries got revised. I find it very weak, precisely because quarries are not a good tile.

    I agree that quarries need some love, but it could be different than mines. For example, it could be gold instead of production (I like the temple proposition).

    Also, it would be nice if Stone Works required a Quarry to be built instead of an improved Stone, Marble, Jade or Salt (why salt ?).
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Unless its undocumented change, amber is a quarry and is not buffed by stoneworks. Furthermore, I cannot build a stoneworks for having connected Amber. This is an issue with the quarries pantheon.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Mm, that's an oversight for the building aspect, however Amber is still supposed to get its bonus from the Temple. That's intentional.

    G
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the temple is buff is fine (amphitheatre for lapis lazuli), but its not the same as mines being buffed by the forge.

    Planations all get buffed by herbalist + another building. Mines all get buffed by forge + another building. However, amber gets buffed only by temple. We should add another yield for quarries to some building (even the forge itself would be fine)
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Stone works makes the most sense for it, but it is already pretty heavy. Could toss it on the forge, but it feels a bit tacked-on.

    G
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Stone works to me is the best home, and also allows amber to build the stone works, making the building more commonly seen in certain games.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I think the question is: which are reasonable improvements that can be replaced with GPTI? We, pretty much always, want a GPTI over a resource tile, since it a) connects the resource and b) makes sure it's going to be worked on.

    Wheat. Farms are enhanced by imperialism, cathedrals and agribussiness. Also, it may break a farm cluster. Wheat is enhanced by Granary and god of sun.

    Camp resource. Deer and buffalos are enhanced by granary, ivory by circus, camps are enhanced by goddess of hunt, forest (that are going to be destroyed) are enhanced by workshops, goddess of renewal, but nothing else.

    Mineable resource. Mines are enhanced by forges, mother earth, and industrialism. Most mineable resources are buffed by buildings.

    Plantation resource. Plantations are enhanced by herbalist, imperialism and goddess of spring. Resources are all buffed by buildings.

    Pasture resource. Resources are buffed by stable. Pastures are enhanced by goddess of open sky and Fealty. EDIT- Agribussiness buffs pastures now, I think.

    Quarry resource. Resources are buffed by stone works and temple. Quarries are only buffed by god of craftmen and industrialism.


    Briefing. Farms, mines and plantations are not good places, since they are going to be buffed eventually by a building. Pastures are good places when not going fealty-imperialism, and missing horses for agribussiness. Camps are good places, except for rare pantheons. Quarries are good places when not going industrialism.

    Also, uranium, oil and alluminium I don't remember them being enhanced by any building, but all strategic resources get extra science in rationalism, IIRC.
    And placing GPTI in a Tradition capital is pretty much useless.
     
  18. Barak

    Barak Emperor

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    Moving Lapis, Amber and Jade from a mined to a quarried recourse took away some production from all three resources. While they all get buffed by future buildings, all three still fall behind the buffs that Gems, Silver and Gold receive as mined resources. Perhaps those three quarried resources should get an +1 production somewhere? They used to get that from Forge as a mined resource, perhaps they still should.
     
  19. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    What if watermills / wells added either a hammer or a gold to quarries?
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Given the upcoming changes to Workshops and Lumber Mills/Logging Camps, what if the yield bonuses from the Workshop also affected Quarries? It makes sense that a Workshop could potentially be enhancing the output of all quarries as more workspace and specialized tools are available to help refine the output of marble, amber, lapiz, etc.
     

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