Minor Religions

[Dom Pedro II]

Ok, I've got an idea... I wouldn't want these religions in the game if they're just there to be pushed aside by what we might call full religions. With that said, I think "minor" religions ought to be modifier religions. By this, I mean that they exist in a civ abstractly... through buildings etc., and then when a religion is founded in their civilization, these modifier religions modify the big religion.

So, for example, the Aztecs have a minor religion that involves ritual sacrifice. If they found Buddhism, Buddhism becomes a religion with human sacrifice. For the Mayans, they incorporated a lot of astronomical features into their religion, so if they found Christianity, astrology will be an important aspect.

What do these things actually change? I don't know. New idea... But it's something to consider.

EDIT:

Thinking it over some more, this would be a good way of removing the interchangeability of the different religions without having to actually go to the length of actually making them inherently different. Rather they would inherit specified traits of the civilization's culture. So converting to Taoism from Buddhism would have different strengths and weaknesses, but those strengths and weaknesses would be defined by who founded those religions and not as part of some built-in difference between the two.

I think this is important since, as a modder, you want to reach the maximum audience possible and offend the least number of people possible without compromising your views and beliefs, and when you make one religion spread faster or deny them health benefits from certain kinds of prohibited food, or have them build units like Jihadi or Crusader or something, you put yourself at risk for criticism from people who think it's inappropriate or inaccurate. So with this, you can minimize that... but that's not the major benefit. More of a side one...

Also you don't have to come up with ridiculous names like Cult of Quetzalcoatl or Greek Pantheon, etc. etc.

And lastly, it makes things more dynamic and would help prevent beelining to Religion X because it provides this benefit or that benefit.

 

[dh_epic]

Was more directed at dh_epic. Sorry.

My problem was not that he was supposing that religion spread through conquest. My problem was that it seemed like he was saying that religious spread through conquest was something peculiar to the polytheistic religions mentioned.

Oh, no. I definitely wasn't trying to say that religion spreading through conquest was unique to the ancient religions. Let me try to clarify:

There is no home for Roman Polytheism outside of Rome. There is no home for Egyptian Polytheism outside of Egypt. No home for Greek Polytheism outside of Greece.

There IS a home for Islam outside of Arabia, a home for Christianity and Judaism outside of Jerusalem, and a home for Buddhism outside of Nepal.

That's the point. You'd be adding a lot of unnecessary complexity and you'd be harming realism if you simply added 14 new minor religions that behave the same way as the world religions. The minor religions are minor in that they are incapable of spreading beyond their borders.

Okay, okay... so someone is going to say that Greek Polytheism spread to the Romans? No, it didn't. Roman religion and Greek religion long operated separately. It wasn't until the Romans conquered the Greeks that there was a natural syncretic movement to merge the two religions: Neptune and Poseiden are actually the same god.

Spoiler :

That's how Greek polytheism existed in the first place. As the first kingdoms formed, so did the first memorable pagan religions. One tribe with their gods conquered a city with their local gods. Because one tribe managed to conquer another tribe, it must be true that their god is superior. The mythology of the heavens grew to describe that. Before too long, you had a story of numerous gods and relationships that were inspired by what they had seen on earth. Eventually, as a kingdom emerged, so did a notable animistic or polytheistic religion.

Yes, all religions engage in some syncretism in order to survive and transmit. In fact, many religious scholars believe that Judaism made its transition from Henotheistic to Monotheistic due to its time under the Persian empire, and they picked up some ideas from the Zoroastrians. Certainly, the Roman Catholic Church chose the date of Christmas in order to compete with the pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice (not because of any accurate birth date).

But for the pagan religions, the influence of its priests end at the borders. As a kingdom's borders grow and shrink, so too does the influence of its priests grow and shrink.

To sum it all up, you should implement the minor religions as pagan temples. That is because every ancient civilization of every size had an autonomous and polytheistic/animistic cult, which inspired temples long before world religions arrived. These temples probably even allowed religious civics to operate -- theocracies and otherwise. But once a world religion like Buddhism or Christianity arrives, these pagan temples will be quickly assimilated to that world religion. The arrival of world religion makes minor or pagan religion irrelevant. (Not to say the minor religions don't exist, but they have insignificant power as far as the game goes.)

 

[Optimizer]

I would drop Confucianism (not a religion, Chinese religion is already represented by Taoism) and replace it with Hellenism (understood as worship of any of the Graeco-Roman gods) since it is well-known, and a plausible religion for several leaders: Alexander, Pericles Augustus, Hannibal and Julius Caesar. (Ragnar, Brennus and Boudica could also be considered, due to the cultural links between Norse, Celtic and Greek religion.)

 

[Ekmek]

There is no home for Roman Polytheism outside of Rome. There is no home for Egyptian Polytheism outside of Egypt. No home for Greek Polytheism outside of Greece.

There IS a home for Islam outside of Arabia, a home for Christianity and Judaism outside of Jerusalem, and a home for Buddhism outside of Nepal.

That's the point. You'd be adding a lot of unnecessary complexity and you'd be harming realism if you simply added 14 new minor religions that behave the same way as the world religions. The minor religions are minor in that they are incapable of spreading beyond their borders.

So are you saying that these religions should be options in the game but you cant build missionaries? just let the natural game spread do any spreading. sounds reasonable and then leave the missionaries to the big proselytizing religions.

 

[dh_epic]

So are you saying that these religions should be options in the game but you cant build missionaries? just let the natural game spread do any spreading. sounds reasonable and then leave the missionaries to the big proselytizing religions.

I think you should have pagan religion exist wherever there is no religion. Once you discover polytheism, all your cities automatically become "pagan religion" cities. This offers no bonuses, but does allow you to leverage religious civics in cities with pagan religion (cities with no religion). It allows you to build pagan temples in those cities, for happiness and culture. (Probably not pagan monasteries, since that would be weird.)

The moment that a world religion (Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism...) infiltrates a city, there is no more pagan religion in that city. That means that the city cannot receive a religious civic bonus with paganism as your state religion -- you have to switch to the world religion.

This would be similar to how the Roman religion gradually eroded in the face of Christianity, with a few centuries before Rome finally caved in and chose Christianity as their state religion.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Oh, no. I definitely wasn't trying to say that religion spreading through conquest was unique to the ancient religions. Let me try to clarify:

There is no home for Roman Polytheism outside of Rome. There is no home for Egyptian Polytheism outside of Egypt. No home for Greek Polytheism outside of Greece.

There IS a home for Islam outside of Arabia, a home for Christianity and Judaism outside of Jerusalem, and a home for Buddhism outside of Nepal.

That's the point. You'd be adding a lot of unnecessary complexity and you'd be harming realism if you simply added 14 new minor religions that behave the same way as the world religions. The minor religions are minor in that they are incapable of spreading beyond their borders.

Okay, okay... so someone is going to say that Greek Polytheism spread to the Romans? No, it didn't. Roman religion and Greek religion long operated separately. It wasn't until the Romans conquered the Greeks that there was a natural syncretic movement to merge the two religions: Neptune and Poseiden are actually the same god.

That's how Greek polytheism existed in the first place. As the first kingdoms formed, so did the first memorable pagan religions. One tribe with their gods conquered a city with their local gods. Because one tribe managed to conquer another tribe, it must be true that their god is superior. The mythology of the heavens grew to describe that. Before too long, you had a story of numerous gods and relationships that were inspired by what they had seen on earth. Eventually, as a kingdom emerged, so did a notable animistic or polytheistic religion.

But for the pagan religions, the influence of its priests end at the borders. As a kingdom's borders grow and shrink, so too does the influence of its priests grow and shrink.

Well, I pretty much have to disagree with you on virtually every point you made.

The made problem I see with your claim is that you provide absolutely no evidence to substantiate it. You provide no explanation for the critical question of "why"? You have neatly divided the "world religions" from the "pagan religions" without providing anything to define them as being different.

Certainly it's not monotheism... Hinduism is not monotheistic and neither is Buddhism. Certainly it's not proselytism since Judaism has pretty much never gone out looking for converts. It's not the message since Judaism's message is that there is only one group of people who received God's covenant, and meanwhile there is virtually nothing in any of the "pagan" religions of the Mediterranean that excludes people outside of their ethnicity from participating. Indeed, you say that Greek gods had no place outside of Greece and Egyptian gods no place outside of Egypt. This is an outright error. Zeus was worshipped outside of Greece, Adonis was too. Osiris was worshipped outside of Egypt. Cities like Rome and Alexandria had dozens and dozens of religions being worshipped within their bounds. And not only that, but they were all competing for followers. Heron of Alexandria made good money developing progressively more convincing miracles using technology to help these temples gain and keep adherents.

You also say that Greek religion played no part in the development of Roman religion. This too is false. The Greeks had a cultural influence over Rome and Italia long before Rome had conquered Greece. In a lot of instances, too, where you had people saying "this god of yours is the same as this god of ours" is really no different than saying that Allah, Yahweh, God, Dios, Deus, etc. etc. is all referring to the same being.

And then take Zoroastrianism which has far more in common with the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) and in spite of the number of adherents. Yet Zoroastrianism was replaced almost entirely by the Hellenistic religions that you claim could not extend beyond their political realms... how could that be? I mean, Greek rule didn't last particularly long, and by your formula, they would've incorporated Zoroastrianism rather than just destroyed it. So the Greek religion must've drawn these non-Greeks into the fold somehow.

My point ultimately is that there is no defining characteristics of the two groups you have created that make them different. The distinction is completely arbitrary. They are governed by the same mechanics of human sociology and psychology in spite of each and every one being different and unique in their own particular way. However, all that being said.... (see below)

To sum it all up, you should implement the minor religions as pagan temples. That is because every ancient civilization of every size had an autonomous and polytheistic/animistic cult, which inspired temples long before world religions arrived. These temples probably even allowed religious civics to operate -- theocracies and otherwise. But once a world religion like Buddhism or Christianity arrives, these pagan temples will be quickly assimilated to that world religion. The arrival of world religion makes minor or pagan religion irrelevant. (Not to say the minor religions don't exist, but they have insignificant power as far as the game goes.)

This is the only point I actually agree with you on. I don't think I would just limit it to one building, I like my idea of modifying a world religion's effects based on the civ it is founded in, but I certainly don't think that the various indigenous religions should all be represented in the game. I didn't make that explicitly clear earlier.. but in spite of coming to their defense intellectually, I still think they would do nothing but clutter up the map in the game if they were all added. But my point was before that if they ARE to be in, then they should be in as full religions and not some kind of half measure. Personally, I think it's better to abstract them as I mentioned above.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

out of curiosity, why not just add another religion? Add paganism, with a very high spread rate but no monastary or cathedral, founded at mysticsm. (Well, at mysticsm is probably too much benefit since civs with mysticism will probably get another religion anyway... Tech tree would need some adjustment)

Hinduism were called "Indian Polytheism" or if Judaism were simply "Israeli Monotheism",

Interesing examples, since Hinduism would be translated as "beliefs of the Indus people" and Judaism as "beliefs of the people of Judea." But that's neither here nor there, I guess.

I like my idea of modifying a world religion's effects based on the civ it is founded in

Me too, but there are so many civs in the game now. But to give effects like cultural groups would be interesting. But even then you are probably not going to have a different effect for each civ group/religion combo (35? or 42?). Easiest implementation would be to create one addtional building per cultural group that could be build by followers of the faith they found.

No wait. Easiest implementation would be: Check the founder of your state religion. You can build their unique building as well, but it reverts to normal if you change state religions. (If you follow a religion you found, maybe your own unique building is cheaper.) Also, it would make sense for followers to get a bigger bonus with the founder if you are positing that their culture so influences their religion and its followers.

 

[dh_epic]

I somewhat agree with you, Dom. The distinction between a world religion and a pagan religion is not easy to define. I have a few theories of my own -- mostly starting from the premise that polytheisms have a hard time forming any cohesive and unified cult, and then going on to explain what makes Hinduism distinct from the Greek or Roman pantheon -- but that's really beside the point.

Ideas of God obviously spread all over the place. In fact, there were cults of supposedly Persian gods in Rome and so on and so forth. But ideas of God are not the same as *religions*. Monotheism may have originated in Persia and now dominates 2/3 of the world, but it does not make it a cohesive religion. And ties to the real point which we agree upon: only certain religions were able to make it beyond their borders. Otherwise, it's just a very fluid bunch of gods and spirits.

(That said, I know nothing about a marked shift away from Zoroastrianism under Alexander's brief rule. Maybe a lot of Zoroastrians were killed, and certainly a lot of their texts were burned. But Zoroastrianism was quite strong after Alexander's domination, as far as I know.)

 

[Phallus]

We had two fairly productive discussions in the RFC forums about this a while ago, but unfortunately the suggestions never got off the ground.

Here's one of the threads. Eventually the topic shifted from Judaism vs. Zoroastrianism to how to best implement paganism.
Blasphemous proposed reforming the Paganism civic to make it a viable alternative to major religions in the early game:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190934&page=8

Edit: and the discussion returns to Paganism on this page

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190934&page=12

 

[TheLastOne36]

Guys, is this a discussion or a mod?

I like my idea of religion splits as a random event, I also like the idea of adding more polythiesm, but i also think that "Free Religion" And Athiesm should be in the game.

 

[dh_epic]

I think the closest thing to reality is still close to the "True Prophets" mod with Pagan Temples. I think that's an excellent starting point point for describing how minor religions work, and how they would be absorbed into the international religious organizations like Christianity and Buddhism.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Me too, but there are so many civs in the game now. But to give effects like cultural groups would be interesting. But even then you are probably not going to have a different effect for each civ group/religion combo (35? or 42?). Easiest implementation would be to create one addtional building per cultural group that could be build by followers of the faith they found.

No wait. Easiest implementation would be: Check the founder of your state religion. You can build their unique building as well, but it reverts to normal if you change state religions. (If you follow a religion you found, maybe your own unique building is cheaper.) Also, it would make sense for followers to get a bigger bonus with the founder if you are positing that their culture so influences their religion and its followers.

Well, that is one way or doing things and something I considered... and no, I wouldn't expect a different "minor religion" for every civilization... rather it would just be an abstraction highlighting the characteristics of the pagan religions. So you'd collect together the pagan religions in which astronomy was very important, the others in which sacrificial rites were important, etc.

But giving a civ adopting the religion of another their UB or UU could be interesting but potentially disastrous in terms of balance... unless they lose their own UB, and even then their traits might form a deadly combination. Also, you'd have no incentive to found your own religion anymore since you'd just be getting your own UB then.

 

[Ekmek]

Blasphemous proposed reforming the Paganism civic to make it a viable alternative to major religions in the early game:
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Yeah that civic always got to me. How could you be paganism if your state religion is X. I think it should be rename to 'local faith' or 'fractious' or something in line with te other civics (not sure why free religion isn't Secularism either)

 

[Optimizer]

The strange thing about the Paganism civic is that it allows a state religion.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

The strange thing about the Paganism civic is that it allows a state religion.

It's not strange because the simple explanation is that Firaxis didn't spend more than 30 seconds picking a name for the default religion civic.

 

[dh_epic]

Yeah, if you look at their original prototype of the civics screen, it looks like "Paganism" was in there from the start. Surprised someone didn't critique that and offer something better.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230648

 

[OzzyKP]

I like the idea.