CheScott
Prince
Yes, the Serpent does. I am not aware of any passage where 'Satan' is refered to as 'The Serpent'. I believe he is usually called 'The Beast'.
But, then again, I don't read a lot of fiction. Bwahaha!
Missing Major Religion
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Yes, the Serpent does. I am not aware of any passage where 'Satan' is refered to as 'The Serpent'. I believe he is usually called 'The Beast'.
But, then again, I don't read a lot of fiction. Bwahaha!
"The Beast" is from Revelation in the Christian Bible. Christians reinterpret OT passages including Isaiah's message to Lucifer (King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon), the snake in the garden (a snake), and Satan (an angel who is never suggested to be "fallen," disobedient to God, or in poor standing in Heaven) to refer to this Beast/Devil. According to Oldschooler, this means Jews must believe in him too.
Christians do the same thing with Jesus Christ, reinterpreting Old Testament passages to refer to him. Oldschooler hasn't ruled yet on whether Jews therefore believe in Christ.
caketastydelish
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They believe Jesus once lived, there is no denying that. They just don't think he is the messiah.
caketastydelish
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So alright, they believe in Satan, not the devil. I never knew there was a difference.
I said Jesus Christ. Jews don't believe in Christ, except for Jews for Jesus, who are Christians. Was there a guy named Yeshua in Judea 2000 years ago? I'm sure there were hundreds.
In Christianity, there isn't, because as I've explained to you Satan is folded into the figure of the devil, along with the snake and Nebuchadnezzar. In Judaism, there is no devil, which explains 1.) the fact that a Jew has been telling you we don't believe in him, 2.) the sources provided saying that we don't believe in him, 3.) the absence of sources provided saying we do believe in him, and 4.) the complete absence of mentions of him in Jewish writing and theology.
caketastydelish
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I stand corrected. If Satan is NOT the devil what is it? The devil's cousin?
I thought I'd mentioned that in Judaism there is no devil, so he could hardly be the devil's cousin. As has already been explained many times, Satan is an unpleasant but not fallen angel, the adversary of man but not of God.
caketastydelish
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So God created Satan, to be the advisery of man?
God created everything. I don't know what specific purposes He had in mind for that one particular angel. If I'm not mistaken angels predate humans, so Satan probably wasn't created specifically to annoy us. I don't think the Bible lists any other role for Satan, but it doesn't tell us very much about angels. Satan is mostly known from the Book of Job, where he challenges God's pride in Job's devotion and gambles with God to try and prove Job unworthy.
Grimz101
King
Satan for Jews would be like temptation.
We have temptation there to test us, and make sure we are worthy in God master plan.
I think there was an Ask a Jew thread in offtopic forums under a month ago.. contact the guy who started the topic..
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caketastydelish
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So God created Satin just to piss him off?
That may not be why he was created, even if that's what he did.
GooglyBoogly
Freakamongus
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Oh my goodness. Do people have children just to piss them off? Do they anyway? Anyway, if you'll read the book, God won the bet not Satan.
caketastydelish
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True enough, but thats not the point. Did Satan create itself, or did God create Satan? If God did, then why?
war ensemble
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To know the intentions of a supreme being would be to put yourself on the same level as that being. Which would be making yourself a god. So, God created Satan, but his intentions are unknown to humans.
Of course God created the angels, I thought that was understood. As to His intention, if it's explicitly revealed I don't remember it.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
OK. This goes down to systems of law, and how the ancient Hebrews envisaged God's justice.
Broadly speaking, there are two systems of court: the adversarial system and the inquisitorial system. In the adversarial system, the judge is neutral, he hears the case from two advocates, one for, and one against. From their adversarial sparring the facts emerge, and the neutral judge makes a decision. Each side presents the best possible case, no holds barred, for their particular advocacy, the defence or the prosecution. This is the style used in criminal courts in Britain, the US, and elsewhere, the kind of court depicted in courtroom dramas.
In the inquisitorial system, a judge or a panel of judges participate in the fact-finding. The judge is an active inquirer, rather than an arbiter. He questions witnesses, gathers evidence, etc. This is basically the system used in the Grand Jury in the US, but inquisitorial courts are also found in legal systems throughout Europe and other parts of the world. The term doesn't refer to the Inquisition (though it did use an inquisitorial system).
The ancient Hebrews had, more or less, an adversarial system of law, and their imagining of God's means of justice and decision seems to be a reflection of how they practiced their own law. Christians seem to imagine God practicing justice in the inquisitorial fashion, he finds things out for himself, but the ancient Hebrews did not, they saw him as an arbiter in an adversarial sort of system. The Satan (not just "Satan" - it wasn't a name, but a job title held by an angel appointed to the role) was the one who acted in the role of prosecutor, presenting the best possible case for condemnation of man, and in that capacity he was charged with finding evidence. With the permission of the judge (God) he could carry out tests designed to elicit a response, to make evidence for his case. This is what you see in Job - an angel, appointed to the role of prosecutor (the Satan), is tempting and testing Job to get evidence in order to present a case for his condemnation.
Crowqueen
Token forum woman
So you don't know any Jews? Have you ever met one? Talked to one about your faith and theirs? Don't go pronouncing on what other religions believe in until you have actually talked to them personally or read something more accurate than Wikipedia can be. That was my point, I'm sorry you missed it.
Also, I'm a she, that's why I'm Crowqueen and not Crowking and have a boyfriend. Not all Civ players are blokes.
Sharp, you have some interesting points. Zoroastrianism is a faith which has a number of adherents and there is an attempt to resurrect it, but I still maintain that what you probably have are a few people (the equivalent of Wiccans in Western society, but drawing on an established tradition rather than just making it up as they go along) re-igniting an interest in a religion which, for various reasons, was superseded by Islam in mainstream Iranian society. All the religions in the game have withstood the passage of time quite genuinely on their home turf (I'd rather Taoism was replaced with Shinto, but never mind, you get it with Philosophy anyway so it may be that it is just where religion and philosophy collide, and with Shinto you'd have to give it away with Mysticism, which with several Civs beginning with that tech means that you would have an interesting scrap on your hands...)
EDIT - removed most of what I was going to say. BUT - Michael would see it differently. He agrees that "HaSaTaN" is what he is described as here, but that he as a practicing Jew and growing up in a reasonably orthodox background says that the actual practice is that Satan is BAD and that he definitely is COGNATE with the Christian idea of the Devil, even though theologians such as Federow have a point to say that technically since God created all therefore nothing is out of place. (He once told me off for saying that a certain species of hawk owl which weirded me out a bit looked like something that "God had got wrong".) God is infallible and could not create evil if it was not part of his plan. But Satan, to all intents and purposes in Jewish folklore and practice is evil and is essentially there to tempt man (even if part of God's overall plan; there can be no good without evil), and the legions of dybbuks and other little imps and gremlins should prove otherwise than to say that Jews have no concept of evil entities or spirits as you are trying to prove. I don't know what the purpose of this debate is other than to claim that the Jews have no concept of evil, which is certainly not true, or that the Jews have no personification of evil, which is not true either. Technically you are right that evil could not exist without God's say-so, but I'm really not sure why you don't trust me when I say that in Michael's belief - and mine as a Christian - there is evil in the world and God is there to depend upon when it comes knocking - and you have to keep to his rules unless you want to succumb to it. That's largely what most religions worth their salt believe, in one form or another. Modern New Age or Gnostic theology is largely bent on proving the opposite - that you can do what you like because there is no evil or devil or Hell or whatever - but religious people understand, in varying ways, that God is Good and is ultimately protection from evil in all its forms, mortal or immortal.
BTW www.chabad.org is better than the Federow site because it is more mainstream and more thorough. It's the closest I can find to an official site and having looked at Federow he is mainly trying to do down Christianity rather than actually explain Judaism.
