Missing Major Religion

[zeeter]

Hi,

I think the Zoroastrianism religion should be added.They are now 200000 people in world belive this religion.And 35% of Iranian people belive Zoroastrianism+Islam.
Islam in Iran(persia) is different from other muslim people and this difference come from Zoroastrianism.
Most of Arab muslim are terrorist.But most of Iranian(persian) people are not terrorist.

Thankss

My God this thread is so old that it still has my email address on it as a subscriber.

If you want to add zorowhateverism go for it. However since nobody but 200,000 people, plus a few religious scholars ever heard of it I would say it is justifiably absent. This is a game; not a history lesson. Everyone knows hinduism and confusionism (which really isn't a religion). Throwing in some religion about masked swordsman would just confuse people.

 

[zeeter]

Hi,

I think the Zoroastrianism religion should be added.They are now 200000 people in world belive this religion.And 35% of Iranian people belive Zoroastrianism+Islam.
Islam in Iran(persia) is different from other muslim people and this difference come from Zoroastrianism.
Most of Arab muslim are terrorist.But most of Iranian(persian) people are not terrorist.

Thankss

by the way - I see it's your first post. Welcome to the forums!

 

[dolvlo]

I think they handled religion in this game deftly, however I also think Zoroastrianism got the short end of the stick (and always has throughout history).

Please note that the quoted number of zoroastrians alive today is in no way indicative of the number of zoroastrians that have existed in the past. During the 1979 islamic revolution in Iran, an enormous amount of zoroastrians were executed and there has been similar persecution of those of zoroastrian faith throughout history.

I don't think zoroastrianism should be a religion in Civ 4 simply because most of the people who buy this game are ignorant of it. I am satisfied with there being a great prophet named Zoroaster. When I first saw him in Civ 4, I was very satisfied that they did not forget this religion entirely.

 

[caketastydelish]

That is brilliant!

My highly simplified take is that Zoroastrianism is the "missing link" between polytheism and monotheism. Being a two-god system it's technically a polytheistic religion, although it doesnt have very much in common with them dogmatically, where it is closer to Monotheistic religions.

This difficulty in classification is probably why it wasnt included.

That and many modern Christians harbor Zoroastrian beliefs, dont know they do, and dont want to know that they do.

Zoastranism is a Monothestic religion, not polythestic. If by that definition, Zoartanism has two gods, Christianity has three (God, Jesus, Holy Ghost)
Its all the same God, in different forms. Zoastarnism is the same thing.

They do belive in an evil supernatural force besides God, thats pretty much equavlent to what we would know as the "devil". Is the devil just another God? No. Its the devil. Its there belive that in the end of the world, there God, would defeat the devil (christians belive the same thing.)

While I do think Zoastranism is a very important religion, and respect it very much, I do not think it belongs in civ. Simply because, it has too few followers. However, there are exceptions. For instance, if they create a scenario that involves Persia in the ancient world, they should allow Persia to have the Zoatrain religion. Or, they could have several religions, but 7 are randomly selected to be the "7 religions of the world" for that game. And of coarse, Zoatranism would be one of those many.

 

[phatti]

Hi,


Most of Arab muslim are terrorist.But most of Iranian(persian) people are not terrorist.

Come on, this is a ridiculous statement. Just because many of the recent terrorists have been Arab Muslims, 99.99+% of Arab Muslims are not terrorists. I'm hoping this is a language issue and not what you believe.

 

[caketastydelish]

Come on, this is a ridiculous statement. Just because many of the recent terrorists have been Arab Muslims, 99.99+% of Arab Muslims are not terrorists. I'm hoping this is a language issue and not what you believe.

I agree with you. Its such a racist thing to say, that the majority of Arab Muslims are terrorist. There are 1 billion Moslems in the world. If even 1% of those are terrorist, (even if you take out the iranian moslems) think of how many terrorist that would be! Almost a million terrorist, thats how many!
I am not an Arab myself, infact I am of Iranian decent, not arabic.

However, racism is something that should not by tolerated, without exception.

 

[zeeter]

I wouldn't get too excited. I think we have a language barrier here.

 

[buffalo6542]

Come on, this is a ridiculous statement. Just because many of the recent terrorists have been Arab Muslims, 99.99+% of Arab Muslims are not terrorists. I'm hoping this is a language issue and not what you believe.

This is very true, I am not Muslim, but i have visited a mosque, and most of the people there are just like anyone else, the only differnece is that they are muslim. and if you read the history of Islam, you will see it is a peaceful religion. The problem is a few radical groups have formed and preach an extreme version of Islam. When The Prophet was alive, he accepted Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians.

 

[caketastydelish]

Influenced Judaism...yeah right.

More then likely Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism was just born as Ancient Israel was already at it's golden age.

Wow, that is so incorrect, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[zeeter]

I don't think that a conversation about Zoroastrianism has gone on for this long in over 2000 years.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Oldschooler, you are right.

Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism heavily. Judaism was vitrually developed in the Babylonian exile - after the Persians captured Babylon and Mesopotamia, most of the Jews stayed there, only a minority returned. The ancient form Zoroastrianism affected the religious life of Jews.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Otherwise, I strongly support Zoroastrianism to appear in the game.

Even more, I would welcome the distinction of religions (like in the Total Realism Mod - e.g. cow is a plus happiness if your state rel. is Hinduism, or pig is a minus health if your st.rel. is Islam, or other eccets.)

 

[Crowqueen]

Oldschooler, you are right.

Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism heavily. Judaism was vitrually developed in the Babylonian exile - after the Persians captured Babylon and Mesopotamia, most of the Jews stayed there, only a minority returned. The ancient form Zoroastrianism affected the religious life of Jews.

When did you last read your Bible? Thou shalt not have any other gods except me is from the Ten Commandments, given by Moses, thus establishing monotheistic Judaism. I am aware that Judaism, like most religions at a folk level, has a paganistic element (my boyfriend grew up in Eastern Europe and considers himself a "pagan Jew" because a large element of his upbringing was spiritualist - in the sense of communicating with those who have passed over - as well as orthodox Jewish, although of course there was little opportunity for the religious message to get out because of the lack of Hebrew education in the pre-1991 USSR where he grew up) but the religious orthodoxy rules out any kind of multiple gods or pagan element and has done since Moses (reckoned by some to have been only 2000 years before Christ).

Judaism if anything - and I go out with one myself - is based in the Mosaic laws, and was developed in the Egyptian exile. Much of the Biblical history of Israel was true (barring the obviously supernatural events which have no historical documentation) and when Judah was conquered by Babylon the Jews already had a thriving monotheistic religion based around the temple in Jerusalem.

Personally - and my boyfriend feels the same way - I would have Judaism not allowed to be a state religion, and give +1 commerce in each city it is in but -1 happiness for each other religion present in the city. I can see why Firaxis didn't make it this way but my boyfriend says that would be more accurate historically than having Jewish Japanese as he likes to play.

 

[zeeter]

None of the Civilization games are history games; they are build a civilization games. You can modify the religions all you want and even put your cat's name in as a religion. It doesn't matter. Firaxis will not and should not put any benefits or detriments towards any religion into the game. Each should be interchangable.

There is likely a mod out there where you can change the names of any of the religions. I would suggest changing Confusionism into Zoroastrianism, since Confusionism is more of a philosophy than a religion.

This way we can end this conversation once and for all over whether or not a religion that hardly anyone has ever heard about should be in the game. Personally, I am going to keep things the way that they are as the name of the religion is absolutely meaningless in the game.

 

[caketastydelish]

When did you last read your Bible? Thou shalt not have any other gods except me is from the Ten Commandments, given by Moses, thus establishing monotheistic Judaism. I am aware that Judaism, like most religions at a folk level, has a paganistic element (my boyfriend grew up in Eastern Europe and considers himself a "pagan Jew" because a large element of his upbringing was spiritualist - in the sense of communicating with those who have passed over - as well as orthodox Jewish, although of course there was little opportunity for the religious message to get out because of the lack of Hebrew education in the pre-1991 USSR where he grew up) but the religious orthodoxy rules out any kind of multiple gods or pagan element and has done since Moses (reckoned by some to have been only 2000 years before Christ).

Judaism if anything - and I go out with one myself - is based in the Mosaic laws, and was developed in the Egyptian exile. Much of the Biblical history of Israel was true (barring the obviously supernatural events which have no historical documentation) and when Judah was conquered by Babylon the Jews already had a thriving monotheistic religion based around the temple in Jerusalem.

Personally - and my boyfriend feels the same way - I would have Judaism not allowed to be a state religion, and give +1 commerce in each city it is in but -1 happiness for each other religion present in the city. I can see why Firaxis didn't make it this way but my boyfriend says that would be more accurate historically than having Jewish Japanese as he likes to play.

First of all, in my opinion, Zoastranism is not a pagan religion, so pagan dosen't matter in this case. Its a monothestic religion, with some striking simularities to Christianity. Anyhow, no, they didn't accept the Zoatrian God. Not only because of the 10 commandments, but just common since. Its a monothestic Religion, so all other Gods are false, so whats the point of worshiping them?

Just because they didn't accept the zoastrian God, dosen't mean it didn't influence them in one way or another. They can't accept the zoastrain God, without just flat converting. This isn't polytheism where you can accept more than one God.

They influenced Judaism, not in the God itself, but among other things. Such as how they concieve God, dates of religious anniverseries, and other religious belives. Zoastraism without doubt, influenced Chirstianity (although in a very indirect way)

 

[K.F. Huszár]

FIRSTLY ABOUT ZOROASTRIANISM BEING INCLUDED IN THE GAME

Anyhow, Zoroastrianism was a very important religion. If take a look on the tech tree, horse riding has lost its importance today. So, Zoroastrianism also lost its influence over the masses, however, it had serious effect on other religions.
But for a more adequete approach (and logically too) the mechanism of the decline of a religion should be included also - let's say, in the game a religion can not be wiped out from a city only thru raizuing the city. In reality, a religion can disappear from a city because of various causes. For example, Nestorian Christian communities disappeared from Central-Asia, just like Buddhism from Afghanistan.

SECOND, ZOROASTRIANISM AND JUDAISM

Let's see the Wikipedia on Judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Origins

"Most agree that the people who formed the nation of Israel during the First Temple era had origins in Mesopotamia and in Egypt, although some question whether any or all of their ancestors had been slaves in Egypt. Many suggest that during the First Temple period, the people of Israel were henotheists, that is, they believed that each nation had its own god, but that their god was superior to other gods.[21][22] Some suggest that strict monotheism developed during the Babylonian Exile, perhaps in reaction to Zoroastrian dualism.[23]

In this view, it was only by the Hellenic period that most Jews came to believe that their God was the only God (and thus, the God of everyone), and that the record of His revelation (the Torah) contained within it universal truths.

The origins of Yahweh himself may be rooted in earlier Canaanite religion, which was centered on a pantheon of gods much like the Greek pantheon.

The worship of the god known as Yahweh, not originally a Canaanite god, was probably developed in south of the Levantine region, in Midian [28] and brought to the region of the Levant by a group of nomads from the south (slaves from Egypt, according to biblical tradition). The foreign god Yahweh is believed to have become amalgamated with the native god El and taken on many of his characteristics: an aged god; a wise god; even the creator god [29]. "

So, the Old Testament's most books were written in a retrospective way.
Judaism was affected heavily by Zoroastrianism.
The concepts of angel, saviour, last judgement, structured afterlife etc were taken from Zoroastrianism

So that's it, no one has to create a fabricated past back to creation of the World if he/she is satisfied with his real past, and with the present and possible future.

 

[buffalo6542]

FIRSTLY ABOUT ZOROASTRIANISM BEING INCLUDED IN THE GAME

Anyhow, Zoroastrianism was a very important religion. If take a look on the tech tree, horse riding has lost its importance today. So, Zoroastrianism also lost its influence over the masses, however, it had serious effect on other religions.
But for a more adequete approach (and logically too) the mechanism of the decline of a religion should be included also - let's say, in the game a religion can not be wiped out from a city only thru raizuing the city. In reality, a religion can disappear from a city because of various causes. For example, Nestorian Christian communities disappeared from Central-Asia, just like Buddhism from Afghanistan.

SECOND, ZOROASTRIANISM AND JUDAISM

Let's see the Wikipedia on Judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Origins

"Most agree that the people who formed the nation of Israel during the First Temple era had origins in Mesopotamia and in Egypt, although some question whether any or all of their ancestors had been slaves in Egypt. Many suggest that during the First Temple period, the people of Israel were henotheists, that is, they believed that each nation had its own god, but that their god was superior to other gods.[21][22] Some suggest that strict monotheism developed during the Babylonian Exile, perhaps in reaction to Zoroastrian dualism.[23]

In this view, it was only by the Hellenic period that most Jews came to believe that their God was the only God (and thus, the God of everyone), and that the record of His revelation (the Torah) contained within it universal truths.

The origins of Yahweh himself may be rooted in earlier Canaanite religion, which was centered on a pantheon of gods much like the Greek pantheon.

The worship of the god known as Yahweh, not originally a Canaanite god, was probably developed in south of the Levantine region, in Midian [28] and brought to the region of the Levant by a group of nomads from the south (slaves from Egypt, according to biblical tradition). The foreign god Yahweh is believed to have become amalgamated with the native god El and taken on many of his characteristics: an aged god; a wise god; even the creator god [29]. "

So, the Old Testament's most books were written in a retrospective way.
Judaism was affected heavily by Zoroastrianism.
The concepts of angel, saviour, last judgement, structured afterlife etc were taken from Zoroastrianism

So that's it, no one has to create a fabricated past back to creation of the World if he/she is satisfied with his real past, and with the present and possible future.

remember its Wikipedia, anyone can edit it.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Anyone can edit Wikipedia - FOR A WHILE. Remember, Wikipedia has also an editorial comission. It is not a free encyclopedia.

Therwise the statements on Judaism fit the stuff I learnt in the university

 

[caketastydelish]

remember its Wikipedia, anyone can edit it.

I actually tried that before, and I couldn't and they banned my IP address for "vandalizing" the page.

Anyhow, I read in one of the dummies books called "religion for dummies" that Zoastranism DID. Check that book out for yourself, if you don't belive me. If you can't trust wikipedia, you can trust that book.

 

[TheDanish]

I think its more of an outrage that the game lacks Pastafarianism...