Missing Major Religion

[a4phantom]

Dunno ... Taoism has about twice as many followers as Judaism (25 million to 13 million), and I'd guess that Judaism being "more recognizable" is largely a Western thing. I think Taoism is probably more familiar than Judaism in the Far East (eg, one-third of Taiwan is Taoist).

I'd say they're very similar, actually.

Well yes, when you crop that sentence halfway through it does look like I'm saying that Judaism is more recognizable than Tao. Also, if I were to say "I don't think killing people is fun. I think kicking puppies is bad too." and and you took out the "bad too.", it would look like I thought kicking puppies was fun.

 

[frekk]

Well yes, when you crop that sentence halfway through it does look like I'm saying that Judaism is more recognizable than Tao. Also, if I were to say "I don't think killing people is fun. I think kicking puppies is bad too." and and you took out the "bad too.", it would look like I thought kicking puppies was fun.

Oops my bad. I thought you had said Taoism is hugely insignifigant.

How embarrassing!

 

[a4phantom]

Oops my bad. I thought you had said Taoism is hugely insignifigant.

How embarrassing!

Not as embarrassing as being known as the guy who likes kicking puppies is going to be for me.

 

[caketastydelish]

The first recorded convert to Judaism was Ruth, heroine of the Book of Ruth.





Taoism is hugely significant (and is the same thing as Daoism). And Judaism is more recognizable, more influential, and apparently more resilient than Zoroastrianism. It's also closer to purely monotheistic, Zoroastrianism is actually dualistic.

If in that since Zoroastrianism is dualistic, Christianity is tristic (ok, thats not a word, but you know what I mean)

Ok, so maybe Zoroastrianism being unlocked by the same tech that unlocks Judaism is bad. Maybe that wasn't the best example. But I think you get my point.

the seven religions is the game are:

Judaism
Hinduism
Buddhism
Islam
Christianity
Confustinism (ok that was spelled wrong)
Doaism.

In modern times, in terms of raw numbers of believers, yes Doaism has quite a bit more! But civilization is not a game limited to modern times. The modern age is just 1/6 of the game!

Here in the west, Judaism is more influential and recongnizable. If you went to India, that might not be the case. Just like civilization is not limited to the modern age, its not limited to the west either.

You make it sound like I'm trying to kick Judaism out of the game and replace it with Zoastranism. This is far from the case. I recomend not kicking out ANY of the religions that are presently in the game. All I'm suggesting, is add some other religions in as well! (and of coarse, let the players "choose" during the game, so as not to upset the perfect gameplay balance of 7 religions.)

Let us not forget that Zoastanism had an influence on the Abrahamic religions (Judaism Christianity and Islam) after Zoastranism influenced Judaism, Judaism influenced Christianity and Islam. So in a since, Zostranism influenced Christianity and Islam through Judaism. If you read some of the belives and striptures of Zoastranism, you'll find some of it shockingly simular to Chrisitanity.

This would also be great for RFC. This way, Rome Greece, Persia, Aztec, etc won't have "no religion" until they convert to one of the modern world religions. I guess they could mod in "roman polytheism" for rome, "greek polytheism" for greece, "zoastranism" for Persia, you get the picture...

The Persian empire was once the biggest empire in the world. You can't say they had little to no impact on anything.

 

[frekk]

Well, with intecessionary saints, Christianity could be considered truly polytheistic. Not to mention angels etc ... they may not be worshipped, but they are accorded much the same powers and qualities, including patronages in the case of saints, as gods of various pantheons. In some cases (esp archangels) vastly exceeding the power and scope of many gods. Also not all gods of a pantheon were worshipped, for instance in the Greek pantheon, Cronus, Ouranos, Ananke, etc were not worshipped and had no temples, priests, or devotees.

What really is the difference between, say, Michael and Thor? Neither of them have (had) dedicated priests or temples to themselves. Or between a patron saint and the mortals who became patron gods like Asclepius?

 

[caketastydelish]

Well, with intecessionary saints, Christianity could be considered truly polytheistic. Not to mention angels etc ... they may not be worshipped, but they are accorded much the same powers and qualities, including patronages in the case of saints, as gods of various pantheons. In some cases (esp archangels) vastly exceeding the power and scope of many gods. Also not all gods of a pantheon were worshipped, for instance in the Greek pantheon, Cronus, Ouranos, Ananke, etc were not worshipped and had no temples, priests, or devotees.

What really is the difference between, say, Michael and Thor? Neither of them have (had) dedicated priests or temples to themselves. Or between a patron saint and the mortals who became patron gods like Asclepius?

The saints are mainly just a catholic thing.

 

[BCampbell]

If you have the Civ Chronicles box and read the interviews in the book that comes with it, there's a mention that early in the design phase of Civ 4 they were going to let the players name religions as they were founded. I forget exactly why they went with the names they did, but I think it was to give the game a more historical "feel".

I would welcome the ability to name the religions, personally. Why not, if we get to name cities and units?

 

[war ensemble]

Good points, but that's wrong. Christianity emerged from a Jewish rabbi and mystic, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ, who founded a creed which was exportable to Europe and universalist in nature rather than Judaism, which although it appears to be linked solely to blood rather than a missionary faith, accepts converts (my Russian-Jewish boyfriend says that it is a misconception that Judaism is solely passed on as an ethnic/cultural dogma/set of rules rather than being an actual religion with spiritual and mystical sects of its own - e.g. the hasidim of Eastern Europe).
Don't be tempted to beat about the bush for political reasons. Christianity split from Judaism with St Paul, and even he found it difficult to proselytise outside Jewish synagogues in Greece, Rome and Asia Minor. It is largely because Christ's message is universalist in nature rather than culturally limited (like Judaism and, in my opinion, Islam) that it has spread further than anything else.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, as in they all originated from Abraham. Abraham lived within the Fertile Crescent. The Council of Jerusalem was the major cause for the spreading of Christianity, with Paul arguing with Peter and the Apostles over the issue of Gentiles. Once it became commonplace for Gentiles to enter Christianity without following Jewish laws (ie, circumcision), Christianity began to be realized as its own distinct religion and, as a result, persecutions began. It has spread so far, like you said, because of its universality, summarized so nicely by the Nicene Creed.

That image of Judaism prevails because of the fact that it is slowly decreasing in numbers, and is very different than Christianity, which is much more dependent on missionaries. They accept converts but do not actively seek them.

Let us not forget that Zoastanism had an influence on the Abrahamic religions (Judaism Christianity and Islam) after Zoastranism influenced Judaism, Judaism influenced Christianity and Islam. So in a since, Zostranism influenced Christianity and Islam through Judaism. If you read some of the belives and striptures of Zoastranism, you'll find some of it shockingly simular to Chrisitanity.

Actually, Zoroastrianism was influenced itself by Christianity and Islam as it adopted an even bigger sense of syncretism than its supposed descendants in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. These influences can be seen in either way; however, the majority of changes that can be seen in modern Zoroastrian preaching is because of the fact that it, in a sense, adopted the Abrahamic beliefs after coming in contact with it, much in the same way the Roman Empire did when in contact with Aristotle's teachings, brought over by the Muslims.

By the way, Zoroastrianism is not dualistic. All worship is ultimately directed to their one universal and transcendental god, Ahura Mazda. You must be confusing them with Manichaeism, who believed in two gods: one evil and one good, equal in power.

 

[buffalo6542]

Well, with intecessionary saints, Christianity could be considered truly polytheistic. Not to mention angels etc ... they may not be worshipped, but they are accorded much the same powers and qualities, including patronages in the case of saints, as gods of various pantheons. In some cases (esp archangels) vastly exceeding the power and scope of many gods. Also not all gods of a pantheon were worshipped, for instance in the Greek pantheon, Cronus, Ouranos, Ananke, etc were not worshipped and had no temples, priests, or devotees.

What really is the difference between, say, Michael and Thor? Neither of them have (had) dedicated priests or temples to themselves. Or between a patron saint and the mortals who became patron gods like Asclepius?

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons:[1] the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Since the beginning of the third century[2] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "that the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".[3] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism; and the Trinity has been described as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[3]

Opposing nontrinitarian positions held by some groups include Binitarianism (two deities/persons/aspects), Unitarianism (one deity/person/aspect), the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints view of the Godhead as three separate beings, one in purpose, and Modalism (Oneness).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

 

[frekk]

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine

I'm not talking about the Trinity, I'm talking about the arch-angels and the saints. They may not be called "gods" but the difference is largely just semantics; for all intensive purposes they are equivalent to the lesser gods found in many pantheons.

The saints are mainly just a catholic thing.

"Mainly" .. but not entirely. And let's not forget the Anglicans and Episcopalians.

Also, as far as I know, Michael (literal meaning: resembling God/El) retains his status in practically all Protestant denominations, as does Gabriel (but not Raphael, for whatever reason).

 

[a4phantom]

If in that since Zoroastrianism is dualistic, Christianity is tristic (ok, thats not a word, but you know what I mean)

I don't regard Christianity as a purely monotheistic religion, but it's also not associated with the Monotheism technology.

 

[a4phantom]

By the way, Zoroastrianism is not dualistic. All worship is ultimately directed to their one universal and transcendental god, Ahura Mazda. You must be confusing them with Manichaeism, who believed in two gods: one evil and one good, equal in power.

I did not realize that Manichaism didn't count as Dualism. If that is the case then I was wrong about Zoroastrianism being Dualistic.

 

[troytheface]

major religion? all ten members going to be upset? I think it would be interesting to have paganism a bit more nationalistic/facistic in stats and then each area has its "greek, norse, ect religion under paganism-

 

[The Fishman]

Loads of people seem to want to include other major religions, such as Zoroastrians, Sikhs etc. But others, including the game designers, think that seven religions is the best for gameplay and there shouldn't be anymore.
The obvious answer:
Only have seven techs which found religions, but have a choice which religion you are going to found! That way there will be more religions and more people represented, but the gameplay will be the same with only seven religions.
For example, if I researched 'monotheism', and got it first, I would have a choice between founding Judaism and Zoroastrianism. If I researched 'theology' I would have a choice between Christianity and Islam. If I researched 'meditation' I would get a choice between Bhuddism and Confucianism.
Maybe some religions can be founded by two techs, for example, if you chose Judaism when you got monotheism, Zoroastrianism might still be available via 'Code of Laws', along with Confucianism.

However, this also means that no more than seven religions appear in the game, therefore not affecting gameplay any more than having 'choose religions' turned on does.

 

[a4phantom]

I think this thread has officially jumped the shark. I can't tell which posts are serious suggestions and which ones are satire anymore.

 

[caketastydelish]

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, as in they all originated from Abraham. Abraham lived within the Fertile Crescent. The Council of Jerusalem was the major cause for the spreading of Christianity, with Paul arguing with Peter and the Apostles over the issue of Gentiles. Once it became commonplace for Gentiles to enter Christianity without following Jewish laws (ie, circumcision), Christianity began to be realized as its own distinct religion and, as a result, persecutions began. It has spread so far, like you said, because of its universality, summarized so nicely by the Nicene Creed.

That image of Judaism prevails because of the fact that it is slowly decreasing in numbers, and is very different than Christianity, which is much more dependent on missionaries. They accept converts but do not actively seek them.



Actually, Zoroastrianism was influenced itself by Christianity and Islam as it adopted an even bigger sense of syncretism than its supposed descendants in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. These influences can be seen in either way; however, the majority of changes that can be seen in modern Zoroastrian preaching is because of the fact that it, in a sense, adopted the Abrahamic beliefs after coming in contact with it, much in the same way the Roman Empire did when in contact with Aristotle's teachings, brought over by the Muslims.

By the way, Zoroastrianism is not dualistic. All worship is ultimately directed to their one universal and transcendental god, Ahura Mazda. You must be confusing them with Manichaeism, who believed in two gods: one evil and one good, equal in power.

Lets not forget the Persians INVADED Isreal. Not the other way around. When the spanish conqured the Aztecs, did Aztec belives influence the Spanish in any way? Now thats on exageration. I'm not saying the hebrews gave up there faith and basically converted to Zorastranism, as that as FAR from the truth.

What I AM saying, is its just a fact that Zorastranism influenced Judasim more than vise-versa. As the book by Boyce, Mary titled " Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices," puts it "probably had more influence on mankind directly or indirectly than any other faith"

Check out this link to find out more about the religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#CITEREFBoyce1979

And about the "dualistic" thing because they belived in one good supernatural force and one bad, this is not true. Judaism, a strictly monothestic religion, belives in the devil. Wouldn't the devil have supernatural powers? Zorastians believe the "good" supernatural force is superior over the "evil" one. Just like abrahamic religions believe God is superior to the devil. I wouldn't call that dualistic. They don't worship the evil force.

Not only was Zorastranism founded before Judaism, but Isreal was once part of the Persian empire. If you look up the facts, you'll see that Zorastranism influenced the Abrahamic faiths more than the other way around.

 

[a4phantom]

Judaism, a strictly monothestic religion, belives in the devil.

What the are you talking about? Who told you that?

 

[war ensemble]

Lets not forget the Persians INVADED Isreal. Not the other way around. When the spanish conqured the Aztecs, did Aztec belives influence the Spanish in any way? Now thats on exageration. I'm not saying the hebrews gave up there faith and basically converted to Zorastranism, as that as FAR from the truth.

What I AM saying, is its just a fact that Zorastranism influenced Judasim more than vise-versa. As the book by Boyce, Mary titled " Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices," puts it "probably had more influence on mankind directly or indirectly than any other faith"

Check out this link to find out more about the religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#CITEREFBoyce1979

And about the "dualistic" thing because they belived in one good supernatural force and one bad, this is not true. Judaism, a strictly monothestic religion, belives in the devil. Wouldn't the devil have supernatural powers? Zorastians believe the "good" supernatural force is superior over the "evil" one. Just like abrahamic religions believe God is superior to the devil. I wouldn't call that dualistic. They don't worship the evil force.

Not only was Zorastranism founded before Judaism, but Isreal was once part of the Persian empire. If you look up the facts, you'll see that Zorastranism influenced the Abrahamic faiths more than the other way around.

Haha. I should look up the facts, and then you give me a link towards wikipedia? That's a great source!

Zarathustra was born in 1080 BC, or at least is estimated around there by most historians. Abraham? Oh, how about around 1812 BC. Way to totally attack my facts as wrong, telling me to look up the facts and then giving totally wrong facts. Good job!

 

[caketastydelish]

Haha. I should look up the facts, and then you give me a link towards wikipedia? That's a great source!

Zarathustra was born in 1080 BC, or at least is estimated around there by most historians. Abraham? Oh, how about around 1812 BC. Way to totally attack my facts as wrong, telling me to look up the facts and then giving totally wrong facts. Good job!

If wikipedia isn't a good enough source for you, which is understandable, perhaps this would be? http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm
Oh and by the way, even a "bad" source is better than no source at all, which is what you've done.

 

[SharpMango]

Hey, just thought i'd share my rather limited knowledge about my own interactions for fellow posters.....

Having hung out with the parsi (zorastarian) community in Bombay... i have to say that the amount of influence they have had over india is rather considerable. They have had several incredible businessmen and entrepreneurs amongst them, the most famous being Tata....his multinational will quite probably be one of the top3 largest companies in the world within 50 years. It is still owned by parsis, and i do believe that 66percent of tata's profits are devoted to community work, cultural centres, upliftment that kind of thing. This type of work is hugely beneficial and positive for all indians, and as tata becomes more and more globalised, it will be positive for their own employees too..the belief that the stakeholder is key-rather than the shareholder...this is zorastarian philosophy at work...and marvellous it is too..the parsis also were and are pivotal in the bollywood film industry, which is absolutely huge, especially in the non-western world. Their role i guess is akin to the jews of hollywood. the only reason i mention this is to give an idea of parsi influence on global culture...

another thing about the parsi community in particular is that they seem to be run by some rather interesting people who believe it isnt possible to convert...in fact having read in a zorastarian newspaper about some heated debate....they believe that zoraster himself was zorastarian and he didnt actually convert anyone, i think he just renewed the faith.....its a bit of an interesting take to say the least.....
the long and short of it all is that the parsi community in india is slowly dying out, which is a real shame for all indians....

and finally....i've had the priveledge of knowing many iranians in my time having even gone out with one...(damn they're hot)...anyway....the point is..most iranians i met were born after the islamic revolution...i've come to the realisation taht nothing turns people off religion more than being forced to follow it.....before women in iran were banned from wearing hijab, now being forced to wear it, a lot of them hate it.....i've never met an iranian girl who wears the hijab for instance...interestingly enough, they seem much more interested in zorastarianism, holding zorastarian cultural events and what have you..they regard it as a much more authentic iranian religion than shi'ite islam (rightly or wrongly), its part of this nationalistic vibe of ridding their country of the clerics in charge.......in effect they are merely muslims by name, and when the next revolution comes to iran, one will see a massive revival of zorastarianism...so the 200,000 figure of worldwide zorastarians is erroneous, i'd say the true figure is much higher, we'll only notice this when the next revolution comes.

my conclusion..
zorastarians have had quite a large influence on the world stage...in islam they are even regarded as 'people of the book' alongside jews and christians..so historically muslims regarded them as a sister religion (less now due to less enlightened currents prevailing in the muslim world)......
if firaxis was publishing civ4 out of jeddah, saudi arabia or cairo, i'd fully expect to see zorastarianism included as a civ4 religion.....
but lets face it, civ4 is by and large played in the western world and then japan/korea/china....you have to include the western religions and the major eastern philosophies...this is more of a marketing issue than a religious issue....

by the way about including sikhs.....there are less sikhs in india than christians...in game terms, thats like founding islam just before rifling and having it in like 2 cities =p