[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

[jselsmark]

I have three questions:

Even I think Tower victory is a a little bit impossible. :

If I can do it you should be able to do it too... although last time i did win this way was in 0.23 for vanilla... but it isn't impossible.

Last thing is about MP.
If I am playing in a team, with AI in team of 2 elements, why manas, rituals and features are not condivised?
I can't give vampirism to my friend units, I have built Blood of Phoenix and his units aren't immortality..
It's a bug or not?

Thanks all...

1. Sharing of mana would just make it too easy to make über mages this way I think, its not like you share the bonus for food he has if not trading it either is it?

2. If you want you allies to have vampires, give them one of your vampire units and let them spread it themselves.

3. One army enjoying the incredible bonus that blood of phoenix gives should prove to be more than worth the effort of building it... its not like the costs are tripled when you play 3 players in one team but the benefits sure would be... that would just make the "project" even more über than it already is.

Just my 2 cent on the post

 

[Ambreville]

First up you are missing the religion victory, spread your religion and purge the unfaithfull (using the inquisitors) and burning down other religion holy cities. Don't forget to have the "other religions won't spread to your territory" for this one, and try to force your "freinds" on the same continent as you to adopt this civic too.

For a tower victory you need I two mana types of each category (alteration, necromantic, divine, enchantment) so you don't need ALL of them... second more there is (or used to be) a project that produces even more mana nodes... this might be what you need to look into especially since you cant change mana types on nodes you have already build on.

That's a bit of a theoretical answer I think. The religious victory conditions, as they stand, are very difficult to meet, even with judicious use of the Inquisitor unit. I'm far more likely to win in another way before ever hitting the religious mark. I think there needs to be a more balanced way of managing the Armageddon Counter in general. Unless you run an Evil Civ or Elohim specifically, you are pretty much railroaded. I think that fix is coming up in version 0.30.

I keep reading that only two mana types are needed to build the corresponding towers, but for whatever reason, the BtS version seems to require the full suite of three or four. I did manage to win once with the Tower of Mastery, but that's because I was lucky enough to have a good supply of nearby mana early in the game (large map -- big & small islands, and I did use the Rite of Oghma just for that last missing mana). That's uncommon though. On the other hand, as I was surprised to see how eager some Civs are to trade precious mana for some cheap resource commodity! That did help...

The Altar can be pretty easy to build in some cases. It did happen in a couple of games that I had a plentiful supply of Great Prophets -- completing the Altar circa 400 turns in both cases. This usually does not work out that way however. In most cases, I just don't have enough great people to finish the Altar (I sure like their bonuses though!)

By the time I get to the end game, I'm usually close to several winning conditions (Altar, Tower, Domination, or just points). That's actually a good thing! This means that, although winning conditions are by no means easy to achieve, they seem relatively balanced. I do not win every time, far from that, and I don't think that's an issue because otherwise the game would be too easy. So, for those of you grappling with a chance to win, play the game more than once obviously. Give yourself a better chance to learn the long-term strategies of the game in the first place. You will get shoe-horned into unwinnable positions often enough -- if so, toss the game, try again.

Hint: avoid starting positions in jungle or fully forested areas, unless you run the elvish Civ. Hope this helps...

 

[Ambreville]

Having posted this longish note -- there is the issue that some Civs seem to have lower production and/or research abilities than others. Where would I be able to see the actual numbers on this?

For example, I could not accomplish much of anything at all with the Clan. But I could sure do a whole lot with Khazad among others.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In order to get the 12 mana needed for a tower victory, I would recommend founding multiple religions and building their shrines (or capturing the holy cities once the shrines are built, which might be easier) for their free mana. This can get you 6 free mana (order shrine=Law, Rok=Earth, Leaves=Nature, OO=Water, AV=entropy, CotD =Chaos), of course it can be quite difficult to get all of them (especially since CotD isn't founded until the Kuriotates/Sheaim very late game heroes are built). Also, get as many vassals as possible, especially through colonization. Vassals, especially colonies, are extremely willing to give up all their palace mana at a very low price. Of course, the number of colonies you may liberate is strongly influenced by the number of contenents/island big enough to house 2 cities. It isn't hard to get 12+ mana this way,but they may not be of the right types. Always remember about trading excess mana or other resources for the types you still need, and if that isn't enough, try the rites of Oghama.

 

[Nor'easter]

Having posted this longish note -- there is the issue that some Civs seem to have lower production and/or research abilities than others. Where would I be able to see the actual numbers on this?

For example, I could not accomplish much of anything at all with the Clan. But I could sure do a whole lot with Khazad among others.

The Clan gets minus 10% to its tech rate. I just played my first game as the Clan and definitely fell behind technologically. One way to partially mitigate this might be an early cottage spam, combined with building as many research buildings as possible.

The wiki recommends an early aggressive strategy, which I did in my game -- I started out sharing a continent with the Hippus and the Svartalfar and went after both of them early, wiping them out and securing my entire continent, then filled it in with cities to generate more commerce and science. What really saved me, though, was building the Eyes and Ears Network. I know that comes late in the game, but it's a nice one.

 

[War Chicken]

I've just tested a new kind of game - I turned the option "no Settlers" on in Custom Game menu.

I thought not being able to build settlers would slow down the spreading of the AI Civs. It indeed did - everyone had only one city, including me.
But I hoped, I could get some settlers from "goodie huts", since the popup help said that theyre just not buildable. But this wasn't possible - all goodie huts gave scouts or money. Are Settlers completely banned with this option?
If yes, wouldn't the possibility to find them in goddie huts spice that gametype up a little? just an idea...

Another thing - many people have said, that the goodie hut bonusses are too strong, and therefor the "no tribal villages" was implemented. I personally think, that the bonus huts are quite nice and the AI-Civs hunt them down, too - why not also make an option "double tribal villages" - that would be especially great with the option only to be able to get settlers through them.

Besides that the new options are absolutely great (labruscum, living world...).

 

[Breunor]

In order to get the 12 mana needed for a tower victory, I would recommend founding multiple religions and building their shrines (or capturing the holy cities once the shrines are built, which might be easier) for their free mana. This can get you 6 free mana (order shrine=Law, Rok=Earth, Leaves=Nature, OO=Water, AV=entropy, CotD =Chaos), of course it can be quite difficult to get all of them (especially since CotD isn't founded until the Kuriotates/Sheaim very late game heroes are built). Also, get as many vassals as possible, especially through colonization. Vassals, especially colonies, are extremely willing to give up all their palace mana at a very low price. Of course, the number of colonies you may liberate is strongly influenced by the number of contenents/island big enough to house 2 cities. It isn't hard to get 12+ mana this way,but they may not be of the right types. Always remember about trading excess mana or other resources for the types you still need, and if that isn't enough, try the rites of Oghama.

Thanks magister,

I guess this is what I was looking for. It was my first game; I can take the other religious centers, but in that case, I have in reality a domination victory (if I take EVERY shrine) and just happen to decide to win by buidling towers.

I can understand if you TRY to build all of the religions, but this seems very, very difficult. I guess it works best if you can get the religions, and then have the right great men needed to build the shrines?

My main question I guess what I'm trying to ask, is there a way to win a tower victory where you haven't already won the game anyway?

I guess you can mix, get about 4 shrines, 8 nodes, but this really seems like its a bit unlikely. I did build a wonder that gave me one, there may be others, but it still seems like a longshot.

My point isn't that you can't get a tower victory, it just seems like you can only get it if you have effectively won anyway.


Thanks,

Breunor

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Terra map type is great for Tower of Mana victory.

I thought not being able to build settlers would slow down the spreading of the AI Civs. It indeed did - everyone had only one city, including me.
But I hoped, I could get some settlers from "goodie huts", since the popup help said that theyre just not buildable. But this wasn't possible - all goodie huts gave scouts or money. Are Settlers completely banned with this option?
If yes, wouldn't the possibility to find them in goddie huts spice that gametype up a little? just an idea...

On noble difficulty level or higher you won't get settlers or workers.

 

[Breunor]

OK, I think I figured out how the tower victory works:

You need 12 mana sources (my first error -- I thought you need 15, which is a BIG difference.)

Second, I have mana sources that aren't showing up in my city display. I think I still have them, though, so this may be a display message.

Now, we start with a palace. This gives 3. Say we get 2 religions, at least 1 . This gives 4 or 5. Now, if we build the Soul Forge, we get a death mana, and the Tomb of Sucullus gives a life mana. If we try for this, this is what we have to do. Now we have 6 or 7. Ought to be able to expand or capture a few, say 3.

I haven't gotten to it yet, but I'm guessing the key to this victory is the Rite of Oghma? This will apparently open up more nodes. I guess this is intentional; I guess it shouldn't be too easy to get a tower victory early in the game! If this opens up a few nodes, it shouldn't be too hard to get those towers.

Is this right? It sounds pretty neat, it takes more planning than a spaceship victory in regular Civ. WELL DONE!

Breunor

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Heres one sure way to get a tower victory before you've already won: disable all other victory conditions


Personally I don't have much experience going for a Tower victory, since I rarely play to win. Winning too soon (especially unexpectedly for seemingly pointless reasons, like in cultural or domination victories) often irritates me. I usually only allow conquest victories. I still go for the Altars, but for their intrinsic values not as a victory condition. Since the Tower of Mastery offers no bonus other than winning (and isn't even buildable if its victory condition is turned off), I almost never build it.

 

[Breunor]

OK, now I'm really confused.

I have three of the nodes for a Tower of Elements, and I can't build it wothout the fourth. Are you sure you need 3 out of 4? I'm sure I can upload the file if needed. So it looks like we really do need 15 nodes.....

Breunor

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm sure it was that way in .22 and .23 and that it is probably still supposed to be like that, however from the comments in this and the bug thread it seems like this may not have been carried over to BtS. In vanilla FfH there was a global define
<Define>

<DefineName>BUILDING_MAX_BONUSES_NEEDED</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>​

</Define>
which seems to be missing from the BtS version's global defines.


Personally I never liked this limit anyway. I would rather the towers be harder to get, but much more powerful. e.g., each tower could provide 1 of each mana type needed to create it, and the Tower of Mastery could grant channeling 2 and 3 to all arcane units built in the city (or possibly even those who just spend a turn there). That would essentially mean unlimited Archmages and Summoners, plus faster leveling for adepts. (Obviously, The Tower of Mastery would also have to be buildable even when not a victory condition for this change to even make any sense)

 

[Lucius Sulla]

OK, now I'm really confused.

I have three of the nodes for a Tower of Elements, and I can't build it wothout the fourth. Are you sure you need 3 out of 4? I'm sure I can upload the file if needed. So it looks like we really do need 15 nodes.....

Breunor

On 0.25 I think you need them all... it was that way only in 0.23.

 

[Kyrian]

Kael said that the necessity of 4 manas instead of 3 is a bug of 0.25 in BTS, and He will solve it in 0.30 (shadow), coming about for the end of December.

 

[Nor'easter]

@Breunor:

Remember that the Rites of Oghma creates new mana nodes all over the world, not just in your territory. In one game I played where I completed the Rites of Oghma, none of the new mana nodes appeared in my territory, even though I was the largest civ in the world at that point. It only happened to me in that one game, but it was REALLY annoying to spend all that time and all those hammers and get no benefit in return.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Can i make a small request? can FFH2 be regimentalized? i think it would give a great epic feel to the game to see Rosier take on a regiment of bannor swordsman... and i always like the huge armies of lord of the rings... i think it would give an even more realistic feel to the game, to be comanding huge armies of units
I mean, i can imagine the clan going to war in huge hordes, and the hippus sending out a division of cavalry to stop them.

i thought of a list of units that shouldn't be regimentalized:
Heroes
Summons
Ships
Artillery
Crusaders
Golems
Ogres (though they could have a couple of orc handlers go along with them... that shouldn't be too hard to do, right?)
Most doviello,
Elves,
sidar
Magic users

sincerely
thomas

 

[Breunor]

@Breunor:

Remember that the Rites of Oghma creates new mana nodes all over the world, not just in your territory. In one game I played where I completed the Rites of Oghma, none of the new mana nodes appeared in my territory, even though I was the largest civ in the world at that point. It only happened to me in that one game, but it was REALLY annoying to spend all that time and all those hammers and get no benefit in return.

Good point. I've never gotten this far in the game, but I guess what you are telling me is that the 'Tower' victory isn't really like the spaceship victory in CIV; in Civ, if you get a big lead, you can declare yourself the winner, or build the spaceship, you don't have to beat everyone up.

Here, it looks like you can't rely on getting a Tower victory even if you have a large lead. You probably can't get an Altar victory if you haven't planned it from the start; you probably need to plan for culture early also.

So, if you find yourself with a big lead in the middle of the game, you have to beat up people to get domination, or just win on score. Is this conclusion correct? Right now, I may just declare myself the winner in my game, i don't want to wait for the end of the game.


Breunor

 

[Breunor]

Kael said that the necessity of 4 manas instead of 3 is a bug of 0.25 in BTS, and He will solve it in 0.30 (shadow), coming about for the end of December.

Thanks Kyrian, so I guess a Tower Victory for now is quite hard. Are the towers worth building otherwise?

Breunor

 

[Nor'easter]

Thanks Kyrian, so I guess a Tower Victory for now is quite hard. Are the towers worth building otherwise?

Breunor

Well, the various towers do provide in-game benefits, so I try to build them if I can. The Tower of Mastery doesn't (other than winning the game, of course), but in another thread not long ago a bunch of us kicked around the idea of having the ToM affect gameplay in addition to winning the game, like the final Altar does. Don't know what the design team is thinking or planning on this one.

In your other post you asked about the difficulty of an Altar victory. I think it depends. Remember that only good and neutral civs can build the Altar. You need to set yourself up to generate a series of great prophets to build the first six Altars, then build the final one physically. Religious Discipline's a good civic for that, with the unlimited priests.

 

[Omegon3]

It appears as if I may have initially asked these questions in the wrong forum or place. If these questions appear to be duplicates from somewhere else, I initially posted it in the Beyond the Sword forum (and, subsequently, received absolutely NO responses!!). HOWEVER... After seeing the conversation in this thread I'm hoping that one of you fine people can assist me.

OK... I'm lazy. I could weed through the 300+ pages of correspondence on the "Fall from Heaven" link, but I'm hoping that someone (?) might point me to the exact threads that will help.

Since I downloaded FFH and started playing it late last week (I'm the proverbial "newbie" for FFH), I'm finding that it takes Civ 4 to an entirely new level of play. However, I'm getting a little frustrated by my inevitable charge towards Armegeddon -- especially since, for whatever reason, my wife doesn't seem to progress nearly as fast...

I have three basic questions right now that I'm hoping that someone can answer or indicate where I can get further information:

1. How to slow the progress towards Armegeddon. I read one link that indicated that if you destroyed the city that founded the Ashen Veil this would take some off the counter. Well I did so and... it dropped exactly one (1) point. I figured if I razed a few more Ashen Veil cities this would drop if further. Unfortunately as soon as I did so it ROSE the counter by five; didn't figure I had better destroy any more cities. I don't go after "bad" technologies; I don't build "bad" wonders; I don't adopt the "bad" cult. I spread "good" religion just as fast as I can... Yet, inevitably, the counter rises quickly. My last game (going fairly well) is already up to 62 and I'm hardly past turn 250. And, to top it off, I'm only playing at CHIEFTAIN level!!

Before anyone suggests it, I'm aware of the "Harrowing of the Elodrim". But I would like to play some of the other civilizations (and cults!) since FFH has a BIG variation from civ to civ and cult to cult. I just REALLY don't like Armegeddon...

2. I'm not quite sure what you call the burning terrain that lays waste to all of the good land but, due to the above, inevitably the land around my cities turn to wastelands. My previous game my CAPITAL (quite religious and quite cultural!) had nothing BUT wastelands surrounding it. My question is whether or not one of the mages or conjurers (or their next level) have a spell that willl reverse this? Will "bloom" help?

3. OK... My very first game I actually went to the Armegeddon level (quite fast actually!). Much to my surprise practically my entire army (and all but 2 workers) vanished. Is there a way to combat this (i.e. do either mages or conjurers have a spell to help you KEEP your people -- like loyalty, courage, or something else)?

I'm hoping there are some things to combat these problems since I really enjoy playing this mod, but I am getting frustrated by the Armegeddon counter and its effect on both your land and people. As I said before, I've only made it all the way to Armegeddon once -- mainly because I quit the game before reaching that state.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the big post.