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[MOD] LOR Balance Tweaks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Legends of Revolution' started by Chronis, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    It seems I have calculated wrongly the combat odds. What a tricky function it is, I calculated the probability of the first combat round to be won by the attacker, but not the entire battle. By now I still have no idea how to do these counts, so I'll keep trying to discover to post my answer

    EDIT: I found Raize's calculator of odds, and it works perfectly, I'll do my testings now and give my answer
     
  2. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    *EDIT: Until I got some time to come here correct this, do not take into account all battles with the attacker having Combat ups (it seems one function on the calculator is working wrongly, so I'll need time to correct all the info I displayed on the SPOIL tag). Everything is corrected now, no worries anymore.

    Indeed we have totally different gameplays, I'm solely focused on Totestra, Huge, Deity, Marathon, with most standard options on (plus Permanent Alliance, Barbarian World, Start as Minors and Raging Barbarians, but the last one is being reconsidered because it facilitates us players, and normally open the path for a single AI superpower). And I may be saying some things that sound strange to you, but with thousands of LoR games behind my back, and a few hundreds on Deity (I started playing on Deity for 2-3 years), I did some research about those things I said. So I'll try to be more clear about what I stated, following your answers:

    1 - The fact for BRs to be almost useless is the number of troops that an AI has on Deity (mostly for the beggining of the game, when the difference is much more absurd then on the late game). Making it weaker only increases my desire to forget about them. The AI has no idea how to use them (actually the AI has no idea how to use Siege weapons at all);

    2 - Ideally CIV wouldn't give the AI 4 starting techs, 8 warriors, 2 archers and 2 settlers, plus all facilitation on the support cost and the extra decrease in cost the AI gets if your difficulty is above noble (and it gets worse to you as you go harder). LoR even goes beyond that: Minor civs which pop from barbs start with 15-30 units (after the event of forming the state, which comes a small time after the popping), from archers to swordsmen, passing through spearmen, axemen and chariots (normally it even gets a GGen). As the AI always know where everyone else is, it doesn't matter if it starts right beside you, or far away: It'll come, sooner or later. The only two ways for that not happening are: Start on a small island or use the Shield Glitch. So if you can't use the shield glitch, you're doomed. With OP Nomads things get even harder (mostly on Raging Barbarians). But the other side of the question coin remains: Why a 2:move: Nomad with 5:strength: coming as early as barb archers (3:strength:) to be replaced by a Horseman (6:strength:) by the time of barb swordsmen (6:strength:)? I still think they both are too close in :strength:, one being the evolution of the other and each appearing with such a big gap in age between them (barb horsemen are rare, most of my games I'm full of neighbors before I see one, normally I only see them if I border a desert, and a long time after barb swordsmen have arrived);

    3 - About Grenadiers, I have no idea how you did these countings, but in your first scenario (which is the same of mine :confused:) a CRIII Grenadier attacks a CGIII Musketman fortified and gets 30% chances of winning? I assume you're talking about the former LoR Grenadier because you put CRIII on it. Previously I have made a mistake doing the math of it, but now I'll give the real numbers (thx to Raize's Odds calculator):

    Spoiler :
    Old Grenadier CRIII vs Musketman CGIII & stationary = 78.21%

    Old Grenadier Combat III vs Musketman CGIII & stationary = 33.76%

    New Grenadier Combat III vs Musketman CGIII & stationary = 37.11%
    if Combat II & Pinch = 66.20%

    Grenadier vs Musketman = 96.16%
    if stationary = 78.21%

    Old Grenadier CRIII vs Hvy Foot Combat II & Shock & stationary = 98.83%

    Old Grenadier Combat III vs Hvy Foot Combat II & Shock & stationary = 67.12%
    if inside city = 76.98%
    if Combat II & Shock = 72.87%
    if both = 90.06%

    Old Grenadier vs Hvy Foot = 90.06%
    if stationary = 72.87%
    if inside city = 98.83%
    if both = 90.06%

    Old Grenadier vs Hvy Foot Combat II & Shock & stationary = 27.13%
    if inside city = 50%

    New Grenadier Combat III vs Hvy Foot Combat III & stationary = 98.83%
    if inside city = 99.49%
    if Combat II & Shock = 99.26%
    if both = 99.64%

    New Grenadier vs Hvy Foot = 99.49%
    if stationary = 98.83%
    if inside city = 99.91%
    if both = 99.49%

    New Grenadier vs Hvy Foot Combat III & stationary = 88.86%
    if inside city = 96.64%

    Old Grenadier CRIII vs Pikeman Combat II & Shock & stationary = 96.16%

    Old Grenadier Combat III vs Pikeman Combat II & Shock & stationary = 25.79%
    if inside city = 33.23%
    if Combat II & Shock = 28.66%
    if both = 50%

    Old Grenadier vs Pike = 78.21%
    if stationary = 70.19%
    if inside city = 95.58%
    if both = 78.21%

    Old Grenadier vs Pike Combat II & Shock & stationary = 27.13%
    if inside city = 34.73%

    New Grenadier Combat III vs Pike Combat III & stationary = 98.83%
    if inside city = 99.49%
    if Combat II & Shock = 99.26%
    if both = 99.64%

    New Grenadier vs Pike = 99.96%
    if stationary = 99.89%
    if inside city = 100%
    if both = 99.96%

    New Grenadier vs Pike Combat III & stationary = 98.95%
    if inside city = 99.55%


    As we can see the Grenadier got worse against Muskets (Old CRIII got 12.01% more then New Combat II & Pinch, respectively with 78.21% and 66.20%) and extremely better against Hvy Foots and Pikes, what creates a vacuum of city attacking unit for this age. Without City Attacking Grenadiers, the next City Attacking unit will be the Marine or Armor, because all mounted units will perish to this new set: Cuirassiers will face Grenadiers while Cavalry will face Riflemen. The Grenadier now becomes a defensive unit with a good bonus against melee attackers (which is pointless, because a musketman was already well armed against old melee units) and the possibility of achieving CGIII, becoming itself the new unbeatable defensive unit. Not even riflemen will be able to win against them, and by the time they arrive, they will become the best defensive troop, so we will enter a non-conquests age from the advent of Muskets to the discovery of the Armor/Artillery. Of course Siege units may change this scenario, but as of now, when we needed a few, we will be needing a lot, because cannons will have a hard time against CGIII Grenadiers. I think original LoR did great to change the Grenadier to a melee unit because it plays better this role. They were the leading lines of the army, not city defenders.

    4 - Actually the military oriented players will keep going for Military Science because of the following path:

    Military Science opens Grenadiers, Cuirassiers, Frigate, Ship of the Line and Ironclad Cruiser, 2 great units for the time they come and 3 needed ships to survive in this era. It needs Civil Service (which gives Hvy. Footman) and Muskets (which gives Musketman, Pathfinder, Cannon and Privateer), and this needs Gunpowder (which gives Bombard and Galleon) and Engineering (which gives Pikeman and Trebuchet). Engineering needs Construction which gives War Elephants and Catapults, and Gunpowder needs Guilds, which gives Knights and Galleass. Guilds and Engineering also need Machinery (which gives Crossbowman and Hvy Footman), and Guilds needs Feudalism (which gives Longbow) too. This is clearly a Military path, and if it's intended to keep on it'll go to Chemistry and then it may choose if it's better to get Military Tradition + Rifling or Steel. But in this case, Military Science comes later as it'll only make later units available, so it will start this new era's trait of not having a defined military path, as from now on everything will be hardly mixed.

    To reach Military Tradition, you have to take this path:
    Military Tradition needs Nationalism and Music, and Nationalism needs Civil Service (the only tech of this path which liberates a unit, but this unit needs Machinery too) and Divine Right. From Music and Divine Right to the beggining of the tech tree there is no possible path that has a single tech which liberates a unit, besides the Legends, which are liberated by Polytheism, Monarchy and Divine Right.

    So if you're really interested on units, you'll keep going for chemistry even having to forget about cuirassiers in Military Tradition. And the Techers will have a powerful unit available for them. So it'll be a unit better for techers then military focused players, and may have a really short lifespan (or not a lifespan at all). I still disagree with the change.

    5 - Try a game with the Iroquois and focus on doing espionage things. When you discover you can put all your commerce on espionage and use it to steal gold and tech from your neighbors, spread culture to get tiles, influence and enemy cities revolting for you and spawning troops, settlers and GGens for you and giving you a momentary discount on troops maintenance cost, you'll never forget about doing some espionage from now on. It even allows you to remove a city's entire defense in 1 turn, nullify cities with unhappy, unhealth or revolt missions and change civics to provoke instability (nothing better then to change a free religion AI into a theocracy of a minority religion within its empire, specially if that minority has its shrine on your land and is your state religion).

    6 - I think the numbers I told didn't impress you as they did to me. Maybe it's because I already lost uncountable times in the beggining of the game because 30 troops suddenly popped right outside my known area. It doesn't matter if they pop near you or far away, nor if you used your initial troops to get woodsmen III and Guerilla III. If you have 8 troops (some archers and some warriors), what can you do against a massive stack of swordsmen and chariots? Let's say 20, a standard number for these situations. Remember that one is always a General, so some of them got some ups too. And I didn't try the collateral damage option because I'm sure the AI will fail to use this correctly and it would be easily exploitable. But even with such a bonus, a shield would be required for the time when you still hasn't catapults to train.

    The AI knows where you are, and maybe I'm not correct but I guess I am, on the fact that it targets not exactly the closest, but something between the closest and the weakest. And as a small dose of EPs already gives the AI info about my military prowess, I don't think it's coincidence it normally targetting you instead of another AI, just because you can't have the same number of troops as they have. The same 8 troops are the maximum required to make a shield around a single city, so the AI simply ignores you as a target for its armies (it seems the AI has a Full Army script and some skirmishings scripts, the full army targets cities, the skirmishing just wander around, which may fight against your shield eventually).

    7) Then I would put them only in Legends, and the rest would be put in a city. Maybe if I couldn't make an early Legend I would make one General. An uber unbeatable unit is always nice to have, but to produce powerful units is even better. 100% withdrawal rate changes this drastically. The snowball effect of making more and more generals like this is stupid. And in the end breaks the war engine of the game. I think that my current game on LoR multiplayer with a friend of mine will reach the time where we will fight each other with 100% withdrawal Helicopters. After this game I'll have a better opinion about this, but maybe it should be reverted to have a cap.

    For me it's sad to need to use the shield glitch to survive on deity, but that's expected from a game which compensates higher difficulties giving unfair bonuses to the AI, because they can't improve its overall abilities as players. If the AI knew how to use Siege Weapons, the need for so many troops would be drastically decreased. But it keeps leaving all siege weapons at home for defense and attacking with SoDs without a single siege weapon. I hope I can give you some inspiration for your work, I love this mod and it's good to see its community being alive again. Great Job!:goodjob:
     
  3. nfw

    nfw King

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    Wouldn't a better balance for battering ram be make it so it cannot attack (seriously I can't get my mind around using the battering ram against an archer) but can still bring down walls, assuming it's possible to code of course.
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

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    A workaround would be to just set the maximum damage it can cause to 1%.
     
  5. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    It’s nice to get detailed feedback from someone who is quite obviously a LOR veteran
    1) Regarding Battering Rams I will up their bombard rate to 5% in the next version. This makes them equal to catapults in taking down city defenses. I don’t think they should be better than catapults.
    2) Regarding the Shield Bug I typically play Marathon Deity and Raging Barbarians as well but I don’t play with Barbarian World, or Start as Minors. Those two options are the cause of some of our difference of opinion.
    a. Raging Barbarians will destroy the AI if you also play with Start as Minors.
    This is because the AI does not get any of the normal Deity tech bonuses if you select the Start as Minors option. They only get a single free archer a bunch of warriors and two settlers. This means they might not have any archers to defend their cities when the hordes arrive. They have a much higher chance of losing one of their cities early on to barbarians and even if they don’t they will definitely lose a lot of warriors crippling their early development. One of the tweaks I just implement in version 1.7 restores these bonus techs. However
    the AI is now more likely to swarming the player early with archers so this may eventually need some AI code adjustment if the difficulty becomes impossible on higher difficulty levels. ​

    b. Barbarian World this is the reason why you are getting wiped out by new barbarian civs if you don’t use the shield bug on Deity. I agree that it is nearly impossible to win on Deity with this game option unless you use the shield bug. Having barb cities there from the start guarantees an early barbarian civ next to you. Barb civs are not balanced to appear so early and if one forms near you it is game over pretty much no matter what you do. However, without the barbarian world option it is totally possible, although hard, to prevent these civs from forming near you. With optimal play and proper placement of fogbusters and a little luck you can prevent any barbarian cities from spawning near enough to attack your empire. It’s actually quite challenging and fun and if you screw up you get a barbarian city that forms and is probably going to end up destroying your civ eventually. Personally I recommend playing with Barbarian World off. Having this option on in combination with the start as minors and raging barbarians is setting up the starting AI civs to be totally destroyed by a new barbarian civ which is why I think you are seeing your games dominated by a single huge AI.​

    3) Regarding Grenadiers: I repeated your calculations using Raize’s calculator (you forgot to add in the fortification bonus for the defender btw) I agree with you to a degree. See spoiler tab for calculation details.
    Spoiler :

    (all numbers given are odds of attacker winning the fight)

    First let’s start with some baseline numbers to compare to that of swordsman versus archers
    Swordsman CRIII vs fortified Archer CG III (on flatlands) = 55.26%
    Swordsman CRIII vs fortified Archer CG III (in hills) = 19.15%

    It’s pretty easy for swordsmen to conquer a city not in hills with only archers to defend it and pretty darn hard to capture one in the hills so we probably want a number for Grenadiers vs Musketman somewhere between 55 and 19.

    Now lets look at original BTS Grenadiers vs Musketmen
    BTS Grenadier CIII vs fortified BTS Musketmen CGIII = 29.28

    When we compare that to original LOR Grenadiers vs Musketmen
    Old Grenadier CRIII vs fortified Musketman CGIII = 66.2%

    So LOR more then doubled the effective city attack strength of Grenadiers over base BTS

    Now lets look at the what happens with the tweaked Grenadiers
    Tweaked Grenadier CIII vs fortified Musketman CGIII = 29.28%

    The LOR Grenadier vs the Musketman wins a 66.2% which is just too high
    This is just simply unbalanced in my opinion. However, the tweaked Grenadier
    Wins at a much more reasonable 29.28% which is vanilla BTS odds.

    However we must also remember that LOR tweaks gave the Musketman a 25% city defense bonus.

    LOR Grenadier CRIII vs fortified Tweaked Musketman CGIII = 30.70%
    Tweaked Grenadier CIII vs fortified Tweaked Musketman CGIII = 23.09%

    So with both New Grenadiers and New Musketmen the defense of cities becomes similar to early game hill cities with archers. And importantly defenders become more powerful then in vanilla. This is a bit too much I agree. I think 30% is probably the sweet spot and both changes together are overkill.

    After crunching the numbers I still strongly feel that Grenadiers in base LOR are too powerful. However, I also now think that the (25% city defense bonus I added to musketmen might be enough for balance. I will revert grenadiers back to Melee in the next version of LOR tweaks.

    4) Regarding Cuirassiers: You make a good argument and I never felt that strongly about this move. I will put them back at military science in the next version of LOR tweaks. I will probably swap them with Trafalgar Square and put that wonder at Military Tradition as it fits well there with all the other military experience buildings.

    5) Regarding max spy success rates and max withdraw rates: Sounds like we are in agreement here. My question for you is what do you think the maximums should be for each. Would a 98% cap on withdraw and a 99% cap on spy mission success and a 98% cap on spy escape after mission rate be sufficient or do the caps need to be lower? Let me know what you think as my knowledge in this area is limited due to my limited use of espionage in my games.

    6) Regarding nomads at strength 5. You are going to have to do better if you want to convince me to change them to a lower strength. The fact that they mess up the shield bug is a good thing in my opinion. They are powerful at 5 but that makes the game more interesting. Also they usually come after axemen so that makes for a nice progression Archer 3, Axemen 4, Nomad 5

    Edit: So I uploaded version 1.7 I reverted the changes I talked about above.

    New In Version 1.7

    Mechanics Tweaks
    Deity and Emperor tech bonuses restored to the Start as Minors game option (Warning: will significantly increase Start as Minors difficulty)

    New World Tweaks
    New World Tweaks should now work with start as minors option

    Revolution Tweaks
    Stability Bonus given to AI on Deity increased to 20%, Player stability penalty on Deity increased to 20%.

    Unit Tweaks
    Special Forces are now the only unit that can obtain a 100% withdraw from combat rate
    Guerrilla III promotion withdraw rate lowered (50%-> 20%)
    Woodsman III promotion weakened slightly (-1 first strike, heal rate 15% -> 10%)
    Pathfinders now upgrade to riflemen instead of cavalry withdraw rate lowered (20%->10%)
    Privateers production cost increased to vanilla BTS cost (65 hammers -> 80 hammers)

    Wonder Tweaks
    Trafalgar square moved to Military Tradition and whale bonus removed
     
  6. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    The biggest problem I have with battering rams was not their bombard rate but their low max damage. With a 20% max damage they would almost never die. Instead they would take a free 20% damage off of the most powerful AI city defender at no cost. This makes it much easier to get experience for green swordsmen and get them to city raider III without taking many loses.

    I don't think the idea of restricting battering rams from attacking at all is a bad one but it would make the unit less valuable and it would probably be necessary to reduce its cost as well. If there is demand for this I will consider looking into adding this feature. However I am concerned that that AI might not understand this change or play correctly with the modified battering ram. Not that it does well now, but it may do even worse.
     
  7. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    Version 1.7 had a small bug that would sometimes allow minor civs in the new world spawn into full civs early. I uploaded a new file without the bug.
     
  8. Justinian519

    Justinian519 Chieftain

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    This might be a silly question but I am having trouble properly downloading the LOR tweeks. When I download the file there are many folders (assets, public maps) and sub-folders in assets (like the tweeks folder). Do I just move the tweeks folder into my LoR folder, and if so where to I place it? If not, what files should I be including to make these additions work, and where should I place them?

    Btw, this is an awesome mod and really the only one I use when playing civ!
     
  9. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    The LOR files are in your civ
    Directory go to the beyond the sword folder
    And then to Mods and finally to LOR.

    The files from LOR Tweaks should be copied into
    This LOR directory. If you did it correctly windows should ask
    You if you want to merge these directories together and after
    That if you want to copy and replace several files. If you don't
    Get this prompt you probably copied the files to the wrong place

    Edit: if you copy the assets folder from LOR tweaks so that it merges with
    The assets folder in base LOR you have installed the tweaks correctly.
     
  10. Justinian519

    Justinian519 Chieftain

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    Thanks for the help Chronis! So I'm still having trouble installing the tweeks. I get the message to replace files but then the following error comes up. I got this error using both winrar and 7zip. If you have time maybe you can figure this out because I'm not sure what is going on. Btw I'm using 64-bit vista if that makes a difference

    Edit:
    Never-mind I got it to work. I hate vista. I had to open winrar with administrator privileges for files to copy into the LoR directory. Excited about the balance tweeks. Thanks again for your help!
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Justinian519

    Justinian519 Chieftain

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    Ok so I noticed a possible problem. I am playing a game attempting religious victory and noticed that my inquisitor unit has no option to purge cities of other religions. I'm not sure where the button for the unit went. I can only move inquisitors and gift them (they are useless). I have inquisitions turned on and it used to work in the base LoR so I'm not quite sure what happened. Any ideas?
     
  12. gfurst

    gfurst Warlord

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    Hello there, I still have the whole thread to read, but a quick suggestion on balancing.

    On my last game I had no Iron, Copper and Horse sources anywhere near me( actually an iron in the middle of a desert). So I've noticed I couldn't build most of the old era units, literally my only options were archers and battering ram.
    I couldn't even take down a early barb city.

    The odds of not having neither of those resources is low, I agree, but just in case i think there should be some kind of failsafe.

    In the game I've actually focused on technology while buying off the AI patience.
    Only when I got musketman i could go to war.
     
  13. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    No idea what went wrong. Nothing in LOR Tweaks
    Changes anything with religion so I doubt
    The problem is with my stuff. I have heard of a bug like this
    it was reported recently in the RevDCM thread. I believe you may have hit a known
    Bug in RevDCM (part of the base LOR) But check your civics to make sure you have the correct ones.
     
  14. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    Sounds like an interesting game. Odds are very low of this happening why make major game changes for things that almost never happen?
     
  15. gfurst

    gfurst Warlord

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    I'd realize that.
    The game is interesting yes, haven"t continued playing it yet.
    But its pretty awesome gameplay having to focus on citygrowth and tech so I could discover musketman and also explore the new world, which by the way, had small continent not far from where i currently started sailing, with Iron.
    Pretty awesome!!!
     
  16. snepp

    snepp King

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    I have also encountered this problem.

    When the save is loaded in a clean install of LoR the purge option is available and works properly. When the save is loaded with Balance Tweaks installed the purge option disappears.
     
  17. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    Ok I will look into it

    Edit: Confirmed. Something in the LOR Tweaks dll disables the inquisitor purge option.
    This may take me a while to track down and fix as I have a lot of work commitments at the moment.

    As a temporary fix you can overwrite the LOR Tweaks dll with the original LOR dll. This will restore purge but will disable the following LOR Tweaks features
    1) It is now possible to pillage your own roads
    2) Civilization culture no longer vanishes once their last city is captured
    3) Happiness per city from hereditary rule now capped at 5
    4) Deity and Emperor tech bonuses restored to the Start as Minors game option

    I will work on a fix for this but no promises on when I get to it.
     
  18. armorfiend

    armorfiend Chieftain

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    So my friend and I like to play LoR with the advanced start multiplayer with a bunch of AI civs we can stomp all over.

    What we've noticed is, if you or the AI buy techs that give religions, then the religion gets founded... with no holy city. And no missionaries. And none of your cities have it. So that religion is basically out for the rest of the game.

    Do these tweaks change that? Or is there any way we could prevent the AI from getting techs that give religions?

    Thanks!
     
  19. snepp

    snepp King

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    Note the following post from the bug reports thread:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11199005&postcount=753

     
  20. Chronis

    Chronis Chieftain

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    LOR Tweaks does not change this. I have never used advanced start so I never noticed this. Unfortunately I am not going to have time to update LOR Tweaks for some time.

    Like all hobbies there is a good chance I will circle back around to this at some point
    but I the chance of any updates in the near future is slim to none.
     

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