MOD: Patch Suggestion - C3C version

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by kettyo
I feel boosting feudalism is unnecessary.
It's quite powerful even as default, combined with 'massive city placement'.

The problem with this government is that your civ is in a republic when you get feudalism. Changing from a low warweariness gov. with bonus commerce to a low warweariness gov. without bonus commerce just ain't right.
I suggest setting the warweariness of Feudalism to none while keeping the maintenance at 3/unit.


*Oh, and about the balance changes of this mod:
Decreasing defense of Modern armor is not a good idea.
By decreasing to 14, the AI will have SERIOUS problems attacking a human player. Even if the human player only has TOWs and artillery, he can just sit back, soften up the modern armor and then pick them off with the TOWs one by one.
A high defense for modern armor encourages quick assaults straight towards enemy land and makes for fastpaced and fun gameplay.

*I also think Bombers should be nerfed. (not nessesarily remove lethal land bombard. I would rather suggest a Rate of fire of 2 and a bombard rating of 10).

*The ancient cavalry should be 3.1.2, +1 hitpoint IMHO.
Changing attack to 2 makes them useless since you get them in late ancient age.

*About musketeers... I would actually like to change these to something different than that nobrainer +1 defense.
Seeing the uses of the Musketeers weapons historically, they were more mobile versions of the musket and thus, better offensively.
So I'd say musketeers should be 4.4.1 Bombard strength 2, rate of fire 1, range 0. With a cost of 50.
I tried a game with the french when using this modified musketeer and it worked great. Definitely not an underpowered unit. And also, a very interesting unit tactically. Especially since I didn't have military tradition when my enemies came charging at me with Cavalry.

*Chasqui scout.. How about a 1.1.3 ignore mountains and hills, cost 20.. No?.. No?? I think they would be quite interesting this way.

*Ok, dont FRIKKIN' decrease the cost of Conquistadors!!
Seeing as any strategic or luxury recource within 5 tiles from spanish territory can be pillaged WITHIN ONE TURN (!), They are indeed the best pillagers in the whole game.
And now that they come with astronomy instead of navigation, they are quite effective as regular attackers as well. Basically, nothing is safe, no matter how far away it is. The high cost and low attack justify this pretty nicely IMHO.

 

[kettyo]

War weariness of feudalism should remain IMO to make it harder to conquer everybody in feudalism in single-player.

 

[kettyo]

War weariness of feudalism should remain IMO to make it harder to conquer everybody in feudalism in single-player.

 

[player1 fanatic]

*Oh, and about the balance changes of this mod:
Decreasing defense of Modern armor is not a good idea.
By decreasing to 14, the AI will have SERIOUS problems attacking a human player. Even if the human player only has TOWs and artillery, he can just sit back, soften up the modern armor and then pick them off with the TOWs one by one.
A high defense for modern armor encourages quick assaults straight towards enemy land and makes for fastpaced and fun gameplay.

On the other hand, it encourages human players just to build ton of Modern Armors without wasting shields for Mech. Infatry (faster and just slightly lower defense).

Still, it's not high difference between defense of 14 and defense of 16. So it does't really add some great advantage to human.

On the other hand, difference between defense of 14 and 18 is big enough to promote use of Mech. Infanties as support.

And as far as I've seen, even AI uses that sometimes.

The problem with this government is that your civ is in a republic when you get feudalism. Changing from a low warweariness gov. with bonus commerce to a low warweariness gov. without bonus commerce just ain't right.
I suggest setting the warweariness of Feudalism to none while keeping the maintenance at 3/unit.

Well, you are not supposed to change from Republic to Feudalism.
You go in Fedusalim when you were unable to have effective Repubic. Like when you have not enough luxuries and your cities are up to 6 pop (then unhappiness and mil. support would kill republic).

In those conditions it's even better then Monarchy due to better mil. support. I just moded it to increase it's strenght (good military upkeep for rural civs), without removing its weaknesses (needs to be rural, WW, no commerce bonus).

I though at one moment to make it 1/gp support, no WW government, but it that case it would be some sort of "upgraded Despotism", which I would not like.

*I also think Bombers should be nerfed. (not nessesarily remove lethal land bombard. I would rather suggest a Rate of fire of 2 and a bombard rating of 10).

That's something to be put into consideration. I'm still not sure should I change anything.

But, I would rather go to no leathal land (otehrwise it's weaker then Artillery). And in that case I would remove it from Stl. Bomber too (since they can't be shot down by almost anything).

*About musketeers... I would actually like to change these to something different than that nobrainer +1 defense.
Seeing the uses of the Musketeers weapons historically, they were more mobile versions of the musket and thus, better offensively.
So I'd say musketeers should be 4.4.1 Bombard strength 2, rate of fire 1, range 0. With a cost of 50.
I tried a game with the french when using this modified musketeer and it worked great. Definitely not an underpowered unit. And also, a very interesting unit tactically. Especially since I didn't have military tradition when my enemies came charging at me with Cavalry.

Well, I just want to keep them close to original.

But in case of building 4/4/1 unit, I would remove defensive bombardment and choose price of 50 shields.

*Ok, dont FRIKKIN' decrease the cost of Conquistadors!!
Seeing as any strategic or luxury recource within 5 tiles from spanish territory can be pillaged WITHIN ONE TURN (!), They are indeed the best pillagers in the whole game.
And now that they come with astronomy instead of navigation, they are quite effective as regular attackers as well. Basically, nothing is safe, no matter how far away it is. The high cost and low attack justify this pretty nicely IMHO.

It's interesing how people on one side shout make Conquistadors better and on another don't make it better.

Still I think that 60 shields price is just abot right.
Compared to Keshik, it's more mobile, comes later in tech tree, but with worse attack and no def. bombardment.

By the way, Explorers are great pillagers too.
3 times less expensive and expendable.

*Chasqui scout.. How about a 1.1.3 ignore mountains and hills, cost 20.. No?.. No?? I think they would be quite interesting this way.

That is interesting proposal.
Only question that remains is: Overpowered or not?
I think that it could even be just plain 1/1/3, cost 20, normal movment. That would mean 3 tiles on open, 1 on mountain and 2 in all other cases.




EDIT:
So much posts in one way.

 

[Dogmeat]

1. 15 maybe, not 14.

2.

3. Seriously? I'm quite sure they would still be powerful even at a Rate of fire of 2. Because they still have lethal bombard.
Bombers are definitely too powerful at the moment. They have to be nerfed in some way.

4. Well, the original musketeers are 3.4.1 from vanilla Civ3.
If you make musketeers have 4.4.1 then dont remove the defensive bombard. Too weak otherwise..

5. Whatever.. I gotta try some more games with the Spanish..

6. To keep some of the fluff you know. An Off:1, Def:1 with a cost of 20 shields ain't too overwhelming.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by Dogmeat
1. 15 maybe, not 14

I played with this for a looong time, and I really think it's not big deal.

TOW knocking 1hp from Modern Armor (14 def): 46,2%
TOW knocking 1hp from Modern Armor (16 def): 42.8%
Effective difference around 8%

Average number of shields taken by Bomber (14 def): 1.38
Average number of shields taken by Bomber (16 def): 1.29
Effective difference around 8%

Originally posted by Dogmeat
3. Seriously? I'm quite sure they would still be powerful even at a Rate of fire of 2. Because they still have lethal bombard.
Bombers are definitely too powerful at the moment. They have to be nerfed in some way.

Well, I'm still considering what to do.
But I would rather not want to lower their RoF.
Makes them then barely better then F-15.
And would make bombing cities much more difficult (max 2hp taken).

Originally posted by Dogmeat
4. Well, the original musketeers are 3.4.1 from vanilla Civ3.
If you make musketeers have 4.4.1 then dont remove the defensive bombard. Too weak otherwise..

I don't think that 4.4.1 without DB is weak.
But, you are right, even with DB it isn't overpowering.

Hmm...
I'll think about it.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
5. Whatever.. I gotta try some more games with the Spanish..

Just look what they did in AU mod (from Apolyton forums).
They gave him both defense of 3 and cost of 60.
Too much if you ask me.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
6. To keep some of the fluff you know. An Off:1, Def:1 with a cost of 20 shields ain't too overwhelming.

Fluff is nice, but moving 3 tiles on mountains with expansionistic civ is a little bit too much.

Hmm...
When I think about it, movement of 3 tiles itself makes great pillagers (move in, pillage, move out).
Currently, I'm not sure how balanced it is.

 

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
you are not supposed to change from Republic to Feudalism.
You go in Fedusalim when you were unable to have effective Repubic. Like when you have not enough luxuries and your cities are up to 6 pop (then unhappiness and mil. support would kill republic).

Or more often when you go for conquest/domination victory: 5 free units per town + monarchylike economy. It's very powerful.

With massive city tactic, you know, placing lots of 1-2 sized towns closed together at some remote territory (tundra is perfect) creating 'unit factories'. That way, each one providing 5 free units, you could have almost as huge army as you have the capacity and time to build.

Feudalism is very effective this way.
3gpt/unit is good to make you defend your 'unit factories' harder.
Other way your feudalism would collapse.
With 1gpt/unit even this is more little problem.
Feudalism with 1gpt/unit is unstoppable.

The AI is no match even with 3gpt/unit though.

 

[player1 fanatic]

double post

 

[player1 fanatic]

triple post

 

[player1 fanatic]

grrr...

 

[player1 fanatic]

3gpt/unit is good to make you defend your 'unit factories' harder.

Well, I changed this one just to make transition more smooth and not drastical when you start getting cities.

Of course WW can always make problems if there are too many wars.

EDIT:
Something about nerfed attack of Ancient Cavalry:
-Statue of Zaus is cheap wonder
-It can be got early if you try
-AC with attack of 3 and extra HP is comparable to knight

With attack of 2:
-It's still durable because of extra defense and HP
-It's not bad attacker due to extra HP
-It's not overpowered

 

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well, I changed this one just to make transition more smooth and not drastical when you start getting cities.

When you start getting cities you build settler and build a new remote town for 5 more free unit. That's what feudalism is all about.

Removing the ultra high extra upkeep you remove the essence of this govt form.

 

[kettyo]

Under feudalism you should not have any units over the free amount. Because it's so easy to make so many free units.

 

[player1 fanatic]

When you start getting cities you build settler and build a new remote town for 5 more free unit. That's what feudalism is all about.

That was my favorite tactic for long drawned Despotism wars.
But, that surealy didn't make Despotsim a good government.

 

[kettyo]

But feudalism, unlike despotism, doesn't suffer from economy penalties. So you can build big productive cities as well when having good terrain. A good opportunity to crush your neighbors...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Sure, I just say that if it is easy to make new cities then it's no difference would you put 3gp cost of 1gp cost.

Anyway, when cost starts getting higher you know that you need to switch to something else.
With 3gp version it will just happen a little bit earlier.

 

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
With 3gp version it will just happen a little bit earlier.

Losing your 'freeunit' towns will ruin your economy earlier but i like this threat.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, I think that Feudalism already pays enough with having WW and no trade bonus.

It's not like that it will become unbalanced or something.

 

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well, I think that Feudalism already pays enough with having WW and no trade bonus.

It's not like that it will become unbalanced or something.

I think it's a bit unbalanced this way.
But it's a matter of taste.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Plans for next version:

Inca Scout cost decreased from 20 to 15 shields
Inca Scout gets old movment bonuses (hills and mountains only)
Jaguar Warrior gets an extra HP

Rider cost increased from 70 to 80
Ansar Warrior cost increased from 60 to 70
Cavalry cost increased from 80 to 90
Siphai cost increased from 100 to 105

Celts can't build Medieval Infantry anymore (Galic Swordsmen is better)
Changing Musketeers to 4(2).4.1, cost 50

Dromon cost increased from 30 to 40
Dromon upgrades to Frigate
Galley upgrades to Caravel
Byzantines can build Galley (only way not to break upgrade chain)

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer upgrade to Destroyer (for real)

Cruise Missiles cost decreased from 60 to 40 shields

Removed lethal land bombardment from Bombers
Increased interception of stealth aircrafts from 5% to 15%