[MOD] S.P.Q.R. beta version

[jocapuani]

Annyone remember S.P.Q.R. for Civ3? Well, it was available in German only, so I bet, there are not that many users here, wich will know that C3C scenario. Like the name allready will tell you - S.P.Q.R. is a Mod about the time of the Roman Republic. Some kind of Rise of Rome, with many (planed) special features.

Now there is a first beta version 0.2a for Civilization 4 (1.61), made by a very small team of German modmakers. Some things are allready done, it is playable in general. But there are still many things on our to-do-list. A WARLORDS version belongs to the list. The English translation is very basic (and I guess it's poor to), for example there is actually no English readme and therare very few English pedia entries. It still will be long way to go. We still need some translators. (German to English, but much more than that we need help for translations:
German to French,
German to Spanish and
German to Italian.

Installation:

Mod Only (SPQR0.2a Mod without any special map with preplaced things):
Download SPQR02a.rar and extract the files. Take the folder labeled "SPQR0.2" and put it into your folder "Mods" (.../Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Mods) in the Civilization 4 directory. Start up Civ4, click "advanced" and then "load a mod". The SPQR0.2 Mod should be shown in the list.

additional Italy Map (70x80)
You need to DL seperatly and drag that WBS ile into your "Public Maps" folder. Of cource you need the full SPQR0.2 Mod to play the map. Now you could play this map by clicking on "load scenario" or by double clicking on mapfile SPQR_Italien.Civ4WorldBuilderSave.

Italy Map-Preview​

Civs/Leaders: We will start with some kind of general mod, playable each of 15 Civs in that very first version. Main focus is on Civilizations, that had direct contact to Romans, or at least had a chance, to met the Romans. This means there will be no Hethitians, no Mycenean Greeks, no Bablonians, Sumerians and so on. (Well may be, some day in later versions there will be such Civs too. But exept one little thing, there won't in the first version.)

Spoiler Leaders/Civs list and screenshot :

Leaders:

• Rome: Julius Caesar
• Greek (Achaia): Demosthenes
• Macedonia: Alexander
• Ptolomaier (Egypt): Cleopatra
• Seleukid (Syria): Antiochos
• Pergamon: Attalos
• Pontos: Mithidrates
• Colonial Greeks (Epirus and different greek Settlements all over the Med): represented by Pyrrhus
• Celts/Gaul: Brennus and Vercingetorix
• Germanic Tribes: Arminius (may be Ariovist?)
• Etruscians: Lars Porsenna
• Carthagians: Hannibal Barkas
• Celtiberians: Viriathus
• Dakians: Burebista
• Skythians: Ateas
• Parthians: not impelmented yet.
• Nubians: not impelmented yet.
• Numidians: not impelmented yet.
  
  We are using stagnant (not animated) leaderheads, this is intended for later versions too. Preview:

Religions: There are 7 Religions in that mod, all called "Cults". We choose NOT to use any of the "Great Religions" so we hope, it will allow, to feel a little different from Vanilla Civ4 religions. But we know, it still needs some adjustment.

Spoiler screenshots for SPQR-Cults :

religios Units:

Cult of Jupiter founded:

Ressources: Like it was in the Civ3-Version of SPQR, there are some "unique" ressources. For example "timber" is in again, like "olives" are too. Some other ressources are completely new (clay, linen) others are removed from game (sugar, rice) or replaced by others.

Spoiler screenshot showing some ressources on map :

Spoiler screenshot of some mounted units :

SPQR-Mod Version 0.2b Download (ca. 28 MB)

SPQR-Italy Map (70 x 80)

Report Bugs in SPQR0.2b (links to German Civforum), You could report bugs and things here too (of cource), but I'm not sure how frequently an how detailed I'm able to answer things here. However, I would be glad about much feedback.

Bugfix for SPQR0.2a

Thanks to everyone who provided city lists, arts and other forms of support.
Worse luck I had a HD crash and lost many, many things by that. So I lost my list with all the names of unit creaters and such here from civfanatics and elswhere. If I forgot to list your name in the readme file, just send me a PM and I'll include you on the list.


Edit (19.12.06): There is a small bugfix out now, fixing some things. (hopfully, becouse it is not tested extensive yet. But I had to choose, fixing it fast or relase bugfix later, so I choosed trying to fix that as fast I can.) What happens in bugix?



Download bugfix 0.2a If you don't own SPQR0.2a, you may choose downloading SPQR0.2b. The bugfix is included in this version, biside that, there are no differences.

Good work, very very nice!
Jocapuani.

 

[Arne]

As a suggestion, I agree with Heav about adding improvements that will increase production (hammers), or upgrading improvements to produce more hammers on basis of a tech discovery.

Well, let's see. I personally don't "like" the potentiality to cut all the forests away in an ancient game. So may be, we should change something there. I would love to see two kinds of forest, one is possible to cut down (like normal Civ4 forest), the other is not. Instad of cutting down, this forest type may become able to put sawmills in. *thinkabout*

Rather, it should go slower in the middle of the game (haven't played a game to full end yet), so that you have the time to build the newly available units and improvements, and use them.

Yes, I allready noticed this. The techrate still need adjustment.

As a contribution, I could translate some civilopedia entries from German into English. (I guess, a translation into Dutch or Frisian is not very useful ;-) )

This would be great, any help woul be grat. (This counts for alinurdengizich too ). However... I still have to write some texts in German.

PS. I do not see any timber on the map, but it's specified as a resource. Did I overlook something?

Well, timber is pretty rere on Italy map. But there should be some to be found on Corsica for example and on Sardinia as well.

 

[griffin71]

Well, let's see. I personally don't "like" the potentiality to cut all the forests away in an ancient game. So may be, we should change something there. I would love to see two kinds of forest, one is possible to cut down (like normal Civ4 forest), the other is not. Instad of cutting down, this forest type may become able to put sawmills in. *thinkabout*

I couldn't agree more: cutting away all the forests is no good option. I often leave something in order not to reduce continuous hammerproduction too much in favor of rushing buldings.
More alternatives, however, exist:
* increase the cut-down time of forests
* allow sawmills (as you stated)
* add the timber resource more frequently; let timber only add more hammers if a sawmill (or watermill?) is built on the tile that has timber; let the timber resource disappear in case the forest is chopped away.
The choice to have timber in very sparse amounts is peculiar to me, to say the least. Woods have always been growing abundantly throughout Europe, so timber should be very frequently present. If you feel the mod needs a special resource for shipbuilding, you could consider quality timber. It is also a historically known fact that, in the old days, lumber was especially selected in case objects (churches, palaces, &c) needed to be of especial beauty or quality. Even the Bible mentions the beautiful cedars of the Libanon as the special quality wood that king Solomon had let his palace built of.

 

[griffin71]

I just wondered whether it would be a good idea to allow certain units to be traded. This would allow players who are in a difficult situation, but who do have access to a special recource, like timber, to enhance their civ by trading off special units (Liburnes in this case). You could value a unit in terms of its gold value.
E.g. gold vlue = hammers_required * (10 + unit level) / # civs that can currently build units of this type.
Like this, units could be traded for other units, money or (?) tech.

The Star Wars mod implements something like this. They go even further than this, in that they have a mercenary screen. For SPQR I guess it would be most natural to only allow trading between players.

One other question: are there any plans for changing the era names, and the accompanying music? I find it somewhat strange to enter the middle ages in the year 150BC

 

[Heav]

So this is what I have in my mind(just basic), you can take it and form it or just ignore it. If you have better names in mind just use them.

Thiese civics are bassed on classical Greece and Roman rulers system, and starts arround 1200 BC.

Goverments:
Chiefdom - at start Greece tribes were lead by Chief/King(Basileos), who has unlimited power.
+ nothing
Oligarchy - by time, Chiefs lost power, which took aristocracy and Chief was just a figure or was dissabled. Lower classes (farmers, merchants and craftmen) haven' t any rights.
+ dunno
Tyranity - one strong aristocrat dissables others and take absolute power, ussualy he made large social, political, economical reforms. Social reforms were ussualy against aristocracy and in favour of lower classes. Tyrans ussualy built lots of cultural buildings(temples, theatres, etc.) too. Tyranity was shortlived and was just way to establish ancient democracy/republic.
+% on buildings, +% , question: Is it possible to make tyranity absoulete by time(e.g. after 50 turns you are forced to change civic)?
Ancient Democracy - citizens (ussualy free men) formed something like parlaments, law-courts and cabinet, functions were paid so every citizen could have join to this monster called The state.
+ war, rush with gold, +something else
Republic - citizens(ussualy rich free men) formed parlament/senat, law-courts and cabinet, fuction weren 't paid so only rich could rule, lower classes had rights, and this is major difference between republic and oligarchy.
+ commerce or free specialist

Military:
Tribal - Chief had band of warriors, who were loyal to him, based at very simmiliar system as vassalage in middle ages, later from this band became aristocracy.
+ nothing
Nobles - richer citizens were forced to secure battle equipment for himself. They ussualy fought for their concerns.
+ free units
Militia - state secured basic battle equipment for drafted citizens, citizens could secure better equipment from their own sources.
+ draft, + from barracks
Mercenaries - state hires free citizens or foreign soldiers, who wants fight and are well paid.
+ big exp to new units, +1 gold support per military unit, +% on units.

Agriculture: base economic element in ancient times.
Tribal: at start there were two classes: warriors and farmers, warriors protected farmers, who give them for this food.
Big estates: aristocracy established big estates at which worked slaves, they ussualy raise luxurious commodities for big earnings, so there was big lack of daily commodities.
+ 3 from farm and plantation, -1 from farms
Small estates: ussualy tyrans gave land to farmers and forced them to get back to raise daily commodities.
+ 1 from farms
Combined: in later times, there was combined balanced system to maximize earnings and secure daily food.
+ 1-2 from farm and plantation.

Laws/Legal:
Chief=Law - what chief says that is law.
+ nothing
Non written laws: it is based on morale.
+ dunno
written laws: what else to say?
+ happynnes from law-court

Economy:
None - at start there were not any economical system
Natural trade - when there was established specialized class of craftsmen they traded their products for farmers products - food.
+ dunno
Currency - later it was necesarry to establish universal medium of payment.
+ dunno

Religion:
Nature
+ nothing
Pantheon - people worships some fixed gods.
+ no non state religion spread, + something else, + 2 for non-state religion in city
Flexible Pantheon: something what were doing Romans, just adding new gods from conquered territories
+ % in cities with state religion
Free religion
+ per non-state religion, no state religion

Administration:
None
+ nothing
Central
+ and in capital
City states
+ - % maintenance cost from number of cities
Provinces
+ - % maintenance cost from distance to palace

 

[Bema]

Agh - I normally get an email when someone posts in this thread. Haven't had one for ages so I thought I would check how that map was coming along?

Having to d/load another version of the mod wouldn't be a problem btw.

 

[jok]

There are not much news about the map, but the map is first priority to do.

Griffin and Heav, thanks for the good suggestions, i will discuss them with Arne.

One other question: are there any plans for changing the era names, and the accompanying music? I find it somewhat strange to enter the middle ages in the year 150BC

I guess i changed the Era names already. Maybe only the german names are changed... We will take a look on it.

Music... That's difficult because of copyright-problems. We had some good music for the scenario... In Warlords there is some good roman music that would be perfect for our scenario... But the music is still on our list, but it has a really low priority.

 

[Arne]

Sorry for that dalay, I've to do lot of real life stuff actually, so I'm not able to do Civ4 things, now. However, I think, the map will be finished next, but I can't say when it will be done so far.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Drogear]

Sorry for that dalay, I've to do lot of real life stuff actually, so I'm not able to do Civ4 things, now. However, I think, the map will be finished next, but I can't say when it will be done so far.

Thank you for your input.

Real life stuff is far mor importent. But I hope you´ll find the time to complete the map and finalise the mod.

 

[Ambreville]

Greetings.

I tried this mod & scenario -- great game! I have not run into major glitches, other than a catapult that occasionally turned bright pink before I selected it and moved it, after which it reverted to its normal color.

I did have a problem locating resources such as horse and timber. As the Roman player, there were no horses available anywhere near. I had to virtually destroy Brennus to get access to horses. There does not seem to be ANY timber at all so far. I couldn't find the tech that would either reveal or exploit timber anyway. Are these missing from the beta version (but will be included a later time)?

 

[jok]

Greetings.
I tried this mod & scenario -- great game!

Thank you.

I have not run into major glitches, other than a catapult that occasionally turned bright pink before I selected it and moved it, after which it reverted to its normal color.

This one sounds strange, but we will have a look to it.

I did have a problem locating resources such as horse and timber. As the Roman player, there were no horses available anywhere near. I had to virtually destroy Brennus to get access to horses.

The roman player has iron near of their capital. So it would be very easy for Rome, if they have horses too. Also we tried to place ressources on their historical places. Rome was famous for their iron-weaponed infantry. I guess Arne can give you a more detailed answer.

There does not seem to be ANY timber at all so far. I couldn't find the tech that would either reveal or exploit timber anyway. Are these missing from the beta version (but will be included a later time)?

Arne said some posts before:

Well, timber is pretty rere on Italy map. But there should be some to be found on Corsica for example and on Sardinia as well.

But I hope you´ll find the time to complete the map and finalise the mod.

The map and mod will definatly be finalized.

 

[Ambreville]

The roman player has iron near of their capital. So it would be very easy for Rome, if they have horses too. Also we tried to place ressources on their historical places. Rome was famous for their iron-weaponed infantry. I guess Arne can give you a more detailed answer.

Romans did have horses early on obviously (pretty much everyone did), not just Celtics tribes. If having horses (or timber for that matter) is causing problems in the game, things need to be balanced out in some other manner (other than saying these resources weren't available locally). Maybe one way to address the issue is to have initial resource spaces deplete after time (and reappear elsewhere).

I did find some timber on Corsica (OK and perhaps on Sardinia too), but of all places, this isn't exactly the best for that resource. More likely up north would be where you would find oak forests. The kind of trees on Corsica and Sardinia are common to that found on all of the Mediterranean coast -- maritime pine trees, which aren't suitable for ship-building or siege weaponry.

The issue with the weird color of units maybe has more to do with limited memory space. Just a guess.

 

[Arne]

Romans did have horses early on obviously (pretty much everyone did), not just Celtics tribes.

Well, the Romans were not known for beeing good horsemens (but Celts are) or good seamans but they were known for their infantry. So we choose to put horse ressources and timber in far away places on this Italy map. I don't think, it is imbalancing here. On an other map it will be placed different (but still not too much easy).
May be there could be some timber in etruscian lands, since Etruscians are known for beeing seafarers. But I want to hear some more opinions about this point before doing it.

Maybe one way to address the issue is to have initial resource spaces deplete after time (and reappear elsewhere).

Don't know how to do this. This needs scripting and I'm not able to do this easily.

I did find some timber on Corsica (OK and perhaps on Sardinia too), but of all places, this isn't exactly the best for that resource.

Well I used a historical atlas for placing the ressources, and thisone shows timber on Corsica and not in Italy. This means, having timber on corsica is really a good choise. From historical view and from gameplay view as well. This is, becouse I think, it is a nice challenging thing, to fight for ressources or ned to discover them. The Romans on Italy map shouldn't have an easy job. At least this is what I think. May be others would think different.

The issue with the weird color of units maybe has more to do with limited memory space. Just a guess.

Agreed, I think so too. I never got something like that here.

 

[Ambreville]

Well, the Romans were not known for beeing good horsemens (but Celts are) or good seamans but they were known for their infantry. So we choose to put horse ressources and timber in far away places on this Italy map. I don't think, it is imbalancing here. On an other map it will be placed different (but still not too much easy).
May be there could be some timber in etruscian lands, since Etruscians are known for beeing seafarers. But I want to hear some more opinions about this point before doing it.

This all sounds pretty subjective. If Celts were "better horsemen", then give them the potential to build better cavalry units. If another CIV makes better seafarers, give them the potential to build better naval units. The fact that one given CIV is better at something does not necessarily become the basis upon which to limit resources entirely elsewhere... Gee, following this logic, if Romans were good at making infantry, does this mean that infantry becomes totally unavailable for other CIVs!?

 

[Ambreville]

Not that I'm trying to belabor the issue, but the argument about "historical" resources placement can become highly debatable, depending on one's source of info.

For example, here's a map of exports of the area (from the Atlas of World History -- Hammond, 3rd Edition). It shows no major exports from Corsica. I don't think we can therefore conclude that actually "nothing" was coming from Corsica, of course. On the other hand, if you look at the insert map on the upper right corner, it shows timber coming from two nearby spots near Rome, one in Appenines mountains, in Umbria, and the other just southeast of Cumea (Tarracina). Then again, it shows no horses in all of Europe except Hispania! Come on, pretty much everyone had horses back then, so obviously the map is not detailed enough to give an accurate picture of what was actually available in one given area. One map vs. another can become pretty misleading.

In other words, it sounds like the placement of natural resources in SPQR/Beta essentially reflects concerns about game balance. Perhaps balance ought to be addresses in different ways instead, rather than simply removing resources and claiming that decision to be historically based when it does not appear to be so.

Please don't get me wrong. I think SPQR is a terriffic scenario -- which is the reason I've been playing it in the first place. It also explains why I go through this discussion on the second hand.


(Hopefully my IMG attachment got through...)

 

[Ambreville]

Just a footnote -- please read page 14 of McNeil's study of Forest and Warfare In World History. It's very revealing of the fact Rome in the 3rd Century BC obviously had access to lots of timber to build a massive fleet of ships in their war against Carthage. It specifically points out timber was indeed available in Italy.

 

[Arne]

I can see you point and I accept your view. The only thing is we don't agree on how to do it here on this map. I think, there should be real reasons for Romans (and other Civs) to expand. On of this reasons is the absence of some special ressources in originaly home lands. So they have to get horses from Celts (or from Sicily or elsewhere) and timber for better ships from ... Corsica for example.

IMHO the Game is not imbalanced becouse of the missing horses/better ships for Romans. Or do you really think so?

I like it more chalanging, this brings the fun to me. However, may be, if I will have the time for working on this mod, I will do another Italy map, with more ressources closer to Rome.

 

[Ambreville]

I can see you point and I accept your view.

Thanks!

The only thing is we don't agree on how to do it here on this map. I think, there should be real reasons for Romans (and other Civs) to expand. On of this reasons is the absence of some special ressources in originaly home lands. So they have to get horses from Celts (or from Sicily or elsewhere) and timber for better ships from ... Corsica for example.

Honestly, I didn't feel that the lack of resource was the only reason to want my Romans to expand. If that were the case, I would have had my Romans settle for peace once they had secured these two resources. Instead, I went on to expand even more... just because I could!

In retrospect, using the "missing resources" as a ploy motivating Roman expansion seems superficial if not downright fake. It's too bad because the look and feel of the scenario is excellent to begin with. Limiting important resources that were indeed available throughout Italy detracts from the historical character of the game. (OK -- Praetorians and Cataphractii were features of the later Roman Empire, and therefore should have no place in its earlier Republican era, but I guess you wanted some elite units in the scenario.)

IMHO the Game is not imbalanced becouse of the missing horses/better ships for Romans. Or do you really think so?

No, I don't think the game is imbalanced as the result of "segregating" resources -- I was clearly able to kick Brennus's rear-end out of the game with or without Timber and Horses. An expedition to Corsica is no impossible feat either. The point I'm making is that it doesn't look right, and if not downright silly it certainly departs from a scenario that otherwise tries to be historically-based.

If you believe there is a balance problem having a more realistic distribution of resources in the game, I suggested earlier that perhaps a better approach would be to tweak the abilities of units each CIV can actually build to better reflect their national character. I realize that's an awful lot of work to achieve this, of course, but the result would be far more convincing, wouldn't you agree?

I like it more chalanging, this brings the fun to me. However, may be, if I will have the time for working on this mod, I will do another Italy map, with more ressources closer to Rome.

Good luck with that! Thanks for the good work.

 

[charly1977]

I like this Mod, it´s a awesmome work!
And it is nice to see my buildings i made exclusive for you there
But maybe you should write in your first mailing what new buildings are inside, and perhaps screens of some of them... that could increase the interest to download the mod

Nevertheless it is a real great job, you´ve done! Congratulations!

 

[Arne]

Welcome in this thread Charly. You are right, I should add some more preview screens, especially some with your great buildings shown. I really love some of them.

(OK -- Praetorians and Cataphractii were features of the later Roman Empire, and therefore should have no place in its earlier Republican era, but I guess you wanted some elite units in the scenario.)

True, this is correct. There are also some buildings, that was not existent in republican era. But I'm/we afraid, if there would be no colosseum in a roman scenario we would get some trouble with players...

If you believe there is a balance problem having a more realistic distribution of resources in the game, I suggested earlier that perhaps a better approach would be to tweak the abilities of units each CIV can actually build to better reflect their national character.

Like I tried to wrote above: There is no balance reason behind this, it is more a questions of... flavour and chalange. At least to me.