[mod] TOTAL REALISM 2.0
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
OMG... Previous post Zarco.... lol
rockinroger
WoC Team Member
@Zarco, welcome to civ fanatics. If you go to the top of the thread and look under, search this thread. it will bring up an advance search. in there type what quiestion you are looking to have answered. it takes a while to learn the ropes, lol
Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
@ Houman, Mexico
Guys, you've made a great mod, and I don't wanna be negative, but it has to be said....
While we're talking about Mods that maybe should be put on hiatus until they're fixed, I think some thought really needs to be put into removing mercenaries from the game until their fixed up.
Currently the mod has the potential to ruin game balance (not to mention it runs completely contrary to any definition of realism) in it's current state.
Think about it. Civs are able to hire mercenary units with obscenely high experience and promotion points with techs way beyond what the civ itself has runs completely contrary to the concept of a realism mod.
Real life example - Let's look at a high tech western military with a very well funded, well equipped, well trained elite capability. A Civ 4 example would be say a Commando, who gets generated from a city with a Military Academy, West Point, Pentagon, Red Cross and the right civics. That unit can weigh in with as much as 5 or 6 levels, and up to 15/16 xp right?
Is it realistic then to have a mercenary unit which has up to 15 levels, up to 220 experience points, and enough promotions to make it practically invincible unless you bomb the sh1t out of it from the air?
Most merc units again in that real life example....? Put a battalion or so of mercenaries against say one of the battalions of the UK regular army. If those mercenaries are from say Africa, relatively poorly armed, trained and supported (represented in the mod by weaker merc units), then they'll obviously get trampled.
They should be nowhere near the quality of government "built" units. But what if the mercs are from a western environment where better arms, training and support is available?
Answer - They're not!!! How many mercenary units or militias have you seen running around the EU, or the UK, or the US, that doesn't get the stuffing kicked out of them by law enforcement before they even get to battalion size?? Sandline International in the 90s wasn't even able to take an R&R break in Indonesia without the hierachy getting arrested.
The concept of a mercenary unit that would be any more than level 3 just isn't realistic. I'm sorry, it's just not. Let alone Level 15 (!!!!) That, and the fact that currently, the mercs are available to civs who haven't gotten the tech that those units require just isn't plausible. The whole part of that mod needs to be completely re-written, and dare I say it, nerfed.
If you're thinking that it should be there representing governments covertly supporting others, then fine, but this takes the form of Civs hiring out their own units, not other ludicrously powered units being generated at random for anyone to snaffle up provided they have the cash, if only for a round or so.
Despite all the improvements we've seen in this mod, the mercs component continues to be a bit of a flawed element. If it's too much effort to fix it, take it out until it can be fixed.
Guys, you've made a great mod, and I don't wanna be negative, but it has to be said....
While we're talking about Mods that maybe should be put on hiatus until they're fixed, I think some thought really needs to be put into removing mercenaries from the game until their fixed up.
Currently the mod has the potential to ruin game balance (not to mention it runs completely contrary to any definition of realism) in it's current state.
Think about it. Civs are able to hire mercenary units with obscenely high experience and promotion points with techs way beyond what the civ itself has runs completely contrary to the concept of a realism mod.
Real life example - Let's look at a high tech western military with a very well funded, well equipped, well trained elite capability. A Civ 4 example would be say a Commando, who gets generated from a city with a Military Academy, West Point, Pentagon, Red Cross and the right civics. That unit can weigh in with as much as 5 or 6 levels, and up to 15/16 xp right?
Is it realistic then to have a mercenary unit which has up to 15 levels, up to 220 experience points, and enough promotions to make it practically invincible unless you bomb the sh1t out of it from the air?
Most merc units again in that real life example....? Put a battalion or so of mercenaries against say one of the battalions of the UK regular army. If those mercenaries are from say Africa, relatively poorly armed, trained and supported (represented in the mod by weaker merc units), then they'll obviously get trampled.
They should be nowhere near the quality of government "built" units. But what if the mercs are from a western environment where better arms, training and support is available?
Answer - They're not!!! How many mercenary units or militias have you seen running around the EU, or the UK, or the US, that doesn't get the stuffing kicked out of them by law enforcement before they even get to battalion size?? Sandline International in the 90s wasn't even able to take an R&R break in Indonesia without the hierachy getting arrested.
The concept of a mercenary unit that would be any more than level 3 just isn't realistic. I'm sorry, it's just not. Let alone Level 15 (!!!!) That, and the fact that currently, the mercs are available to civs who haven't gotten the tech that those units require just isn't plausible. The whole part of that mod needs to be completely re-written, and dare I say it, nerfed.
If you're thinking that it should be there representing governments covertly supporting others, then fine, but this takes the form of Civs hiring out their own units, not other ludicrously powered units being generated at random for anyone to snaffle up provided they have the cash, if only for a round or so.
Despite all the improvements we've seen in this mod, the mercs component continues to be a bit of a flawed element. If it's too much effort to fix it, take it out until it can be fixed.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Uncle Anton,
Oh yes, you are right. In my last game as Malinese, a Spanish army took two of my cities easily. They had a mercenary elephant, level 6, with combat I to IV and other capabilities. My best troops were swordmen.... Impossible to stop ! The game was over.....
The Frog.
Oh yes, you are right. In my last game as Malinese, a Spanish army took two of my cities easily. They had a mercenary elephant, level 6, with combat I to IV and other capabilities. My best troops were swordmen.... Impossible to stop ! The game was over.....
The Frog.
Houman said:
yes , but there are flags not defined, only montezuma cleopatra done well, i dont know what the problem, beacause before i download the patch the flags are good.
other question i m in the medieval era and i have a crash and i go to the desktop always in the same period
it's impossible to me to proceed after this period ,
hi
bu e babi:
Spartan117
Immortal
Uncle Anton said:
arent military contractors mercenaries?...the US uses a bunch of them in iraq.
Ankenaton
"The Heretic"
Sorry to disagree guys but.....During ancient times up to and including the middle ages, mercenary units often were the most experienced and capable units available to a monarch, potentate, or warlord other than their elite troops. Even today you can stack up an experienced mercenary unit against anything most nations in Africa, Asia and/or South America can put into the field on a unit to unit basis (except perhaps for elite crack troops). Of course all of the world class militaries can trump mercenary troops, because for the most part they are better equipped, perhaps better motivated and there are more of them (e.g. quantity has a quality all of its own). Most wars during the middle ages were fought more or less on the following lines: you had a personal guards contingent; a noble contingent; a number of yeoman troops; peasant levies; and mercenaries. During the many wars in pre unification Germany and pre unification Italy, most of the major battles utilized sizable contingents of mercenary troops. Who is better motivated a man who makes the art of war his business or some yeoman farmer or peasant sharecropper? I will take the merc anyday, as many leaders have similary decided. Also arguing on a cost benefit basis; wouldn't you rather expend troops where your only investment is money? Or would you suffer loses to your national army that may not be easily replaced? Count Tilly during the 100 years wars in the Germanies had one of the best and well equipped armies during the period, and it was a mercenary army. Though the promotions may have to be lowered a bit to improve gameplay, I do think the mod reflects a truer understanding of mercenary capabilities.Spartan117 said:
darklife41
Chieftain
I've used total realism since v1.0. Always CTD when bombarding as a group. Solution was simple, don't bombard with a group, as 1 at a time seemed to work fine.
Just upgraded yesterday to the new mod (2.1.1) after rebuilding my computer. Also using 161 patch. Still CTDs when bombarding in a group and occasionally CTDs even when bombarding with a single unit (catapult, artillery, etc.). So getting close to the end of the game, I started saving after every turn. With 14 turns left in the game, it CTD every time I try to go to next turn. 14 turns left!! Not that I was going to quit, as I was well in front of the remaining 2 civs in every way. (looking for the crying emoticon).
I took the advice of another poster and deleted the cache in my games. No difference. Start, hit next turn, CTD. I've tried with the CD and with a paid and updated Game Jackal, so its not due to accessing the cd-rom.
I haven't tried many mods, but thought this one was all I'd ever want. If only it would work. Sure hope you guys get this sorted out. Please don't give up on it. I can only imagine the work put into creating these mods. I can appreciate how building the next one is a priority, but hope the kinks can be worked out of the existing mods as well. Thanx for a great mod.
Just upgraded yesterday to the new mod (2.1.1) after rebuilding my computer. Also using 161 patch. Still CTDs when bombarding in a group and occasionally CTDs even when bombarding with a single unit (catapult, artillery, etc.). So getting close to the end of the game, I started saving after every turn. With 14 turns left in the game, it CTD every time I try to go to next turn. 14 turns left!! Not that I was going to quit, as I was well in front of the remaining 2 civs in every way. (looking for the crying emoticon).
I took the advice of another poster and deleted the cache in my games. No difference. Start, hit next turn, CTD. I've tried with the CD and with a paid and updated Game Jackal, so its not due to accessing the cd-rom.
I haven't tried many mods, but thought this one was all I'd ever want. If only it would work. Sure hope you guys get this sorted out. Please don't give up on it. I can only imagine the work put into creating these mods. I can appreciate how building the next one is a priority, but hope the kinks can be worked out of the existing mods as well. Thanx for a great mod.
Spartan117
Immortal
@ankentannon
I was NOT commenting on whether they should be weaker or not. I was just saying The US uses mercenaries currently.(alos the number dead isnt calculated into the american soldier casualties/as they arent american soldiers-but contractors)
mercenaries were lethal in africa like sierra leone and a country that starts with an A,(angola? i think) like in 1994 or early 90's
Mercenaries weere weaker then standing national armies during WW1,WW2 and cold war. They were outgunned and didnt evolve to new strategic methods. Howevre with the the fall of the Soviet Union, alot of weapons were sold on black market, and other markets. So all of a sudden mercenaries were powerful with their own little airforce,helos, and such. They were extremely effective in africa. Which led countries in the UN to not like the idea of expert hired armies. They told the Mercenary company to leave, UN troops came, and were defeated.
historically mercenaries were some of the best soldiers as they specialized in military. only makes sense.
My suggestion to mercenaries is
edit: i forgot the important part. I was not commenting on thier strengths.
I was NOT commenting on whether they should be weaker or not. I was just saying The US uses mercenaries currently.(alos the number dead isnt calculated into the american soldier casualties/as they arent american soldiers-but contractors)
mercenaries were lethal in africa like sierra leone and a country that starts with an A,(angola? i think) like in 1994 or early 90's
Mercenaries weere weaker then standing national armies during WW1,WW2 and cold war. They were outgunned and didnt evolve to new strategic methods. Howevre with the the fall of the Soviet Union, alot of weapons were sold on black market, and other markets. So all of a sudden mercenaries were powerful with their own little airforce,helos, and such. They were extremely effective in africa. Which led countries in the UN to not like the idea of expert hired armies. They told the Mercenary company to leave, UN troops came, and were defeated.
historically mercenaries were some of the best soldiers as they specialized in military. only makes sense.
My suggestion to mercenaries is
Spartan117 said:
edit: i forgot the important part. I was not commenting on thier strengths.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Hi men,
Ankenaton is right. Middle ages and renaissance were times of mercenaries armies. The War of Italy (around 1490- around 1530) , between France, Papal States, Venezia, Spain,... and Habsburg of Austria is a good exemple. An other one is the Thirteen Years War. Count Tilly and Duke Wallenstein were among the best generals, and they were commanders of mercenary armies.
I don't agree on one point: i really think that you don't have to be allowed to hire units you don't have the tech.
About the level of mercenary units, a limit of 100xp is enough IMHO.
The Frog.
Ankenaton is right. Middle ages and renaissance were times of mercenaries armies. The War of Italy (around 1490- around 1530) , between France, Papal States, Venezia, Spain,... and Habsburg of Austria is a good exemple. An other one is the Thirteen Years War. Count Tilly and Duke Wallenstein were among the best generals, and they were commanders of mercenary armies.
I don't agree on one point: i really think that you don't have to be allowed to hire units you don't have the tech.
About the level of mercenary units, a limit of 100xp is enough IMHO.
The Frog.
Quick addition because I'm at work:
Shouldn't we be continuing this discussion on the TR forum instead of this thread? If that's the case, someone needs to lock this thread.
Also, I believe I might have found something that could contribute to the "Raze City" issue. I'll give background on what was going on, just in case it is user error... that way we'll all know that I'm the dumbass
Americans, Noble, TR World map
Had taken the east coast from Washington to Newfoundland, annexed Chicago, er, Illinois, destroyed the Cherokee and dropped a city on New Orleans... only to find the Aztec had dropped a city on the island of Cuba that overlapped New Orlean's resource cross with one square.
Being a perfectionist, I grumbled, assembled a small task force, and re-enacted Bay of Pigs (but without the stupid-ness) ... and took over the Aztec city with the intent to raze it via military conquest.
Unfortunately, it did not give me the option to raze. I had been informed that cities over a certain size won't give you the option to raze, but I've taken size 8s and (maybe) 12s and still been able to raze them: this city was size 5 at the time of initial conquest.
Having the tech, I built the special unit that is supposed to zorch special buildings, cities, etc etc. I threw it on a transport and dropped said unit into the former Aztec city... I clicked "Raze City" ... I lose the appropriate amount of cash from my reserves... and then nothing. Unit sits inside the aztec city, blinking like I had done nothing and it was still waiting for orders. I click again, funds removed, still no action. Every click: funds reduced, unit still sits there taking no action. I did not click to see what would happen if I reduced my available funds to 0, but it seems possible the AI could try to raze something and have this happen... it keeps telling the unit to destroy the target, the unit does nothing, and so forth.
Shouldn't we be continuing this discussion on the TR forum instead of this thread? If that's the case, someone needs to lock this thread.
Also, I believe I might have found something that could contribute to the "Raze City" issue. I'll give background on what was going on, just in case it is user error... that way we'll all know that I'm the dumbass
Americans, Noble, TR World map
Had taken the east coast from Washington to Newfoundland, annexed Chicago, er, Illinois, destroyed the Cherokee and dropped a city on New Orleans... only to find the Aztec had dropped a city on the island of Cuba that overlapped New Orlean's resource cross with one square.
Being a perfectionist, I grumbled, assembled a small task force, and re-enacted Bay of Pigs (but without the stupid-ness) ... and took over the Aztec city with the intent to raze it via military conquest.
Unfortunately, it did not give me the option to raze. I had been informed that cities over a certain size won't give you the option to raze, but I've taken size 8s and (maybe) 12s and still been able to raze them: this city was size 5 at the time of initial conquest.
Having the tech, I built the special unit that is supposed to zorch special buildings, cities, etc etc. I threw it on a transport and dropped said unit into the former Aztec city... I clicked "Raze City" ... I lose the appropriate amount of cash from my reserves... and then nothing. Unit sits inside the aztec city, blinking like I had done nothing and it was still waiting for orders. I click again, funds removed, still no action. Every click: funds reduced, unit still sits there taking no action. I did not click to see what would happen if I reduced my available funds to 0, but it seems possible the AI could try to raze something and have this happen... it keeps telling the unit to destroy the target, the unit does nothing, and so forth.
richieelias
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2006
- Messages
- 42
The US army does not use mercenaries. Contractors are 100% noncombat ONLY. They are engineers, city planners, etc. not soldiers.
Personally I think any mercenaries should only be 1 or 2 levels higher than normal.
Personally I think any mercenaries should only be 1 or 2 levels higher than normal.
Ankenaton
"The Heretic"
@Spartan
@Froggie
Good point guys; I agree that mercs should not be supermen, but perhaps one to two levels stronger.
@Storm
I and I guess we (Froggie, Spartan, et al) post on so many different threads that it is hard to keep track.
But will definitely try to figure out which thread it is before I post again.
@Froggie
Good point guys; I agree that mercs should not be supermen, but perhaps one to two levels stronger.
@Storm
I and I guess we (Froggie, Spartan, et al) post on so many different threads that it is hard to keep track.
But will definitely try to figure out which thread it is before I post again.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
richieelias said:
Hi man,
Stay cool ! As an old retired military who had worked with US soldiers, i can tell you (and everybody) that they are trully not mercenaries. They are "real" soldiers. Perhaps, the way they are recruited is a bit doubtful, questionable. Recruiters only use "strange" methods (for most Europeans).
Most of modern armies of the Western countries also use civilians as engineers, doctors, truck driver,...
So, stay cool !
The Frog.
Spartan117
Immortal
richieelias said:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/04/international_l.html
see....
and i seen it on history channel
anway, i think if the majority of civs have that technology then you can hire the newest units. Mercenaries right now pay for their own things and maintain their own equipment. so a country does not need to know the tech inorder to hire them or maintain them(refer to earlier sentence
)mercenaries in real life, their operations are cheaper then a nation's military. They operate on a smaller scale and are more effective per person then most countries. what costed the UN billions of dollars to do a worse job in sierra leone only took the government millions for the cost of mercenaries who did a more effective job. I am not so sure of differences in mercenaries compared to a country's soldiers from earlier time periods though. But mercs in general are making a comeback, due to the soviet union's fall.
Since it is frowned upon maybe there could have a negative diplomacy effect. -1 we dont like that you hire soldiers(since it would seem as if preparing for war) or maybe that just too much
Los Tirano
God-King
I agree with Ankenaton, if you look at the periods he has mentioned you will find he is correct. Before the nation state and better organised national armies, mercenaries made up a significant portion of european armies, and were typically the most experienced forces on the field save any elite guard or heavy cavalry forces. I find the english during the hundred years war to be very interesting. Instead of opting for mercenary armies they used forces almost entirely composed of well trained peasant longbowmen. Quite a change there. Cheap and effective.
@Hian. One elephant was a problem? Why didnt you build a spearman or hire one? How did one elephant taking one city end the game?
@Mercenaries in Iraq. There is the main force which are not mercenaries i wont doubt that. But has anyone heard of blackwater...
US hires mercenaries for Iraq role (The Age) http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html
Deaths of scores of mercenaries hidden from view (The Star) http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=401463
So although they now use the term PMCs (Private Military Companies) mercenaries still exist.
@Hian. One elephant was a problem? Why didnt you build a spearman or hire one? How did one elephant taking one city end the game?
@Mercenaries in Iraq. There is the main force which are not mercenaries i wont doubt that. But has anyone heard of blackwater...
US hires mercenaries for Iraq role (The Age) http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html
Deaths of scores of mercenaries hidden from view (The Star) http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=401463
So although they now use the term PMCs (Private Military Companies) mercenaries still exist.
Yes, mercs are used in Iraq (Blackwater), but they're usually referred to, as Los Tirano said, Private Military Combanies.
First, the highest tech merc unit available should coincide with the highest tech civ in the game (if it's not a player)... if the highest tech civ is a player, then the only way his tech soldiers get in the merc queue is if he puts them there.
First, the highest tech merc unit available should coincide with the highest tech civ in the game (if it's not a player)... if the highest tech civ is a player, then the only way his tech soldiers get in the merc queue is if he puts them there.
Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
Ankenaton said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mercenaries shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be formidable enough to give a player or AI Civ pause.
But I played a modern era game last night. I saw a merc T72 with Two Hundred and Twenty XP. Even the limit of 100 suggested above is nowhere near reality. I don't think anyone here, can argue that regardless of era, mercenary units should be running around with an experience level 20 times that of the most highly trained government constructed unit.
Even those Hessian Mercenaries who were so important during the 100 years war were actual units raised officially, then leased out. And if you take a second read at what I posted, I actually advocated the leasing out of "government built" units by players and AI civs... that's the strongest positive that the mercs part of the mod has. Of course the middle ages and renaissance wars were fought by mercenary outfits. Doesn't mean that these mercenary outfits should be wielding weapons decades and even centuries ahead of their time, with a list of promotions that is just plain ridiculous.
All I am saying is that mercenaries need to be nerfed, and considerably. Max them at level 4 or 5, with promotions only available to that unit type (Currently they can have any promotion at all it seems), and make the tech level of the merc units available not in line with Era, but in line with the tech level of the majority of civs in play.
I'm yet to hear of one mercenary group either through official or unofficial contacts currently employed in any AO, anywhere in the world, who are armed with laser rifles, trained in interplanetary assault, manned with troops who are 20 times more experienced and trained than SFOD-D, SASR, 22SAS, SEALs etc, SBS, GSG-9 etc.....
I'm using a current example, but you get my point. How many mercs have you read about who were in Wellington's army who were packing AK-47s?
How many English heavy horse did Leonidas and his Spartans have to face down at Thermopylae? Furthermore were these hypothetical units up to twenty times more experienced and more skilled at the various skillsets that a soldier may possess....?
Think about it.
Not saying Mercs should be binned out of hand. Saying it should be binned if it can't be fixed. And it DOES need fixing.
