[MOD] Triangle Trade

[Refar]

Thanks, i will look it up.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I've updated the list of completed and planned changes. I'm pushing fast and furious on the Africa screen and Slave unit right now.

 

[Zuul]

Will the plantations need the resourse to be buildable? I hope so.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Will the plantations need the resourse to be buildable? I hope so.

I had not been planning on this. A few reasons... 1) Where would this yield be taken from? The city nearest the tile? There's no resource on the tile, so you can't get it from there. 2) Crops come from the seeds of these plants, but the resources you're selling are not the seeds. True, cotton could potentially have seeds in it. Sugar or Tobacco would not though. The seeds for these crops were not sufficiently hard to come by that it would be the limiting factor. I've got the cost for each Plantation at 100 gold, which I think adequately representing acquiring the seeds to grow the crops and other factors in setting up the production.

The real limiting factor I think would be knowledge. You need to have people who know how to cultivate that particular crop. Otherwise you've just got acres of dirt until next year.

 

[jaldaen]

Dom Pedro II,

Just to clarify... you will be taking away the resources, but the terrain yields (tobbaco, cotton, & sugar) will remain the same, correct?

For example if a tobbaco plantation grants a +2 tobbaco bonus, then a terrain that normally produces 3 tabbaco will produce 5 with the plantation, but one that normally produces 0 will produce 2? Or will you have it so that certain plantations can only be built on the corresponding terrain?

Thanks for your work and your answers.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Dom Pedro II,

Just to clarify... you will be taking away the resources, but the terrain yields (tobbaco, cotton, & sugar) will remain the same, correct?

For example if a tobbaco plantation grants a +2 tobbaco bonus, then a terrain that normally produces 3 tabbaco will produce 5 with the plantation, but one that normally produces 0 will produce 2? Or will you have it so that certain plantations can only be built on the corresponding terrain?

Thanks for your work and your answers.

That's about the size of it. I'm going to limit the locations to some degree. I'm thinking Sugar Plantations should be permissible on Marsh and Grassland, and Marsh should definitely produce more Sugar than Grassland. Tobacco, on the other hand, I would probably only allow on Plains and Grassland but not on Marsh.

 

[jaldaen]

That's about the size of it. I'm going to limit the locations to some degree. I'm thinking Sugar Plantations should be permissible on Marsh and Grassland, and Marsh should definitely produce more Sugar than Grassland. Tobacco, on the other hand, I would probably only allow on Plains and Grassland but not on Marsh.

Cool... sounds like it'll work out well to me. I'll definately keep an eye out on this mod

PS: I'm working on a Portugal mod... Dom Pedro II is one of the leaders... feel free to stop on by and make suggestions for him

 

[Daniel Shays]

Sounds very promising indeed Dom Pedro. Thanks a lot for developing this.

1.Colonial charters as early constitutions giving you some additional choices how to shape your colony...I was thinking along those lines as well.
Allow say 3 picks out of a list of options or have a list of choices between alternatives as in constitution? Any ideas in detail?
Religious tolerance and permission of slavery are obvious options. Permission to process raw materials efficiently ie. build distilleries or hire Tobacconists etc., produce tools or even arms, or trade with foreign nations could be others.

2.Alternative victory conditions thus no preparation for WoI from turn 1? I like that approach.

3. Are slaves going to be as productive as colonists on the fields or more?
An idea regarding slaves: if there are more slaves than colonists in a city they will revolt (and make it a Maroon city) unless there is a dragoon or soldier garrisoned (not just muskets stored).

4. Plantations. May I suggest higher yield on squares adjacent to rivers due to better irrigation and transport?

 

[Zuul]

I had not been planning on this. A few reasons...

I guess that would be better . A few follow up question on this though.

Making a farm costs 20 gold.
Making a road costs 20 gold.

Making a resourse will cost 100 gold.

Can you make a farm on a tile without a resourse?
Can you farm a tile without a farm?
Can you farm a tile without a resourse?
if so, what is the logic behing being able to get tabacco from a grass (wheet??) field?

Will you bring back some mineral/soil rich resourse from civ1-2, the shield tiles.

Can resourses be depelated? Can they spread?

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I guess that would be better . A few follow up question on this though.

Making a farm costs 20 gold.
Making a road costs 20 gold.

Making a resourse will cost 100 gold.

Can you make a farm on a tile without a resourse?
Can you farm a tile without a farm?
Can you farm a tile without a resourse?
if so, what is the logic behing being able to get tabacco from a grass (wheet??) field?

Will you bring back some mineral/soil rich resourse from civ1-2, the shield tiles.

Can resourses be depelated? Can they spread?

Alright.. I'm trying to follow the logic here...

First, regarding Farms. I'm leaving the regular Farms in the game as is. The only difference is that they will strictly be used to increase the Food output on a tile.

Second, I've got to explain a couple things so we're all on the same page. This game and Civ4 have Yields and Bonuses. In Civ4, Bonuses were often referred to "resources". In Colonization, Yields are referred to as "resources" or "goods". Bonuses in Colonization refer only to those few specific tiles that have the physical resources on them. Bonus tiles give extra of whatever yield they're related to.

But I assume you're probably referring to Plantations. Let's take a Cotton Plantation so we have a clear example. I'm removing both the Cotton Yields and the Cotton Bonuses from the map, so you don't need either to build the Plantation. You need 100 gold and the tile has to be Grass or Plains. The tile also has to be on a latitude less than a certain amount. I haven't solidified what that'll be exactly.

When you build a Plantation, it puts that Bonus on the tile. If you remove the Plantation, it removes the Bonus.

I wouldn't say that you're trying to get Tobacco or Cotton out of grass. Like I said, you're planting the crop and growing it there. To me, that's not only more realistic, but it makes things neater too. I hate having one city that happens to produce 2 or 3 of several different raw materials. I'd rather have cities dedicated to the production of one or two things.

As for Civ1/2 bonuses, you mean like the Peat Moss? I haven't thought about anything like that.

As for depleted resources, I've been thinking about having Silver and Gold (I want to add Gold to the map too) be depleted. I hadn't thought about spreading, but I don't really know why they would.

 

[Refar]

"Spreading Gold" might make sense in limited amount if you call it "Finding".
After depleting a mine there could be a somewhat limited chance to find more silver in a adjacent square by following the "vein"
Or someone might find a nugget in area that previously had no Gold causing a "rush".

A interesting twist could be not to let the player know how much gold there is.

Say: you find a nugget in indian land, you settle a mining town there, piss off the indians... And then find out that the mine only yielded a few turns worth of Gold...

Or: you find a nugget in indian land, you settle a mining town there, piss off the indians... And then find out that there is also Gold in the adjacent square, and lots of it, so the expansion there was worthwhile.

In any case the discovery could/should boost a minor population boost (only if the player claims the Bonus) so it is still worth some trouble to claim even if the Gold run out fast.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Sounds very promising indeed Dom Pedro. Thanks a lot for developing this.

1.Colonial charters as early constitutions giving you some additional choices how to shape your colony...I was thinking along those lines as well.
Allow say 3 picks out of a list of options or have a list of choices between alternatives as in constitution? Any ideas in detail?
Religious tolerance and permission of slavery are obvious options. Permission to process raw materials efficiently ie. build distilleries or hire Tobacconists etc., produce tools or even arms, or trade with foreign nations could be others.

Yes, trade with foreign nations will definitely be one. I was also thinking that the King could impose something like the Proclamation of 1763 and subsequent legislation that restricted expansion and Indian trading.

3. Are slaves going to be as productive as colonists on the fields or more?
An idea regarding slaves: if there are more slaves than colonists in a city they will revolt (and make it a Maroon city) unless there is a dragoon or soldier garrisoned (not just muskets stored).

I had been planning on less food requirements rather than better yield production. That way you can support more of them while putting less of a burden on your food supply.

Slaves will definitely escape. Slave revolts are iffy, but I'm thinking about how they might work.

4. Plantations. May I suggest higher yield on squares adjacent to rivers due to better irrigation and transport?

Yeah, I'm probably going to do that.

 

[senturus]

Hello,

Just to say that I very like your first changes and the others ideas you plan to make.

I have'nt tested your first version yet, but I will keep an eye on your work.

A few comments about your projects, on a nutshell :
- Africa screen : sounds excellent. I think african cities should not give that gold for refined products, excepts perhaps for merchandises ; else, it would be too easy to rely only on african for trading and thus not being affected by taxes and boycott. Buying slaves should remain main activity of african screen.
- Slaves : like the idea of slaves requiring less foods ; but as it is already a great advantages, I think they should be "just correct" for raw production and bad for all other tasks.
- Plantations : I don't understand exactly imagine how it will work, but why not.
- Colonial charter : excellent idea too. One of the choice could be : will the colony will be directly managed by the crown or by some private company with royal charter? For example, new-France was managed initially by a private company then directly integrated in royal domains.
- About natives : it would be great to be able to include some of them in your army, when having good relations with them ; perhaps just temporary, during a war, an allied indian leader may offer you the help of X experienced indian units during X turns.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Some thoughts on Slaves,

Slaves would initialy be a high efficiency production method, cost would be modest with output thats on part with what citizens produce. This makes it advantageous to purchase slaves over recruiting European imigrants.

But as time passes the advantage drops, one method to drop efficiency would be that slaves do not receive the Liberty bonus modifier to their production, this would tend to naturally create a decrease in the efficiency of Slavery as cities become more urban and reach high liberty levels. This would reflect the North/South economic model as Slavery dwindled and disappeared in the North. How slaves factor into the liberty percentage also needs to be considered.

The main driver of Slave revolts would be Slave/non-Slave ratio, the higher the ratio the higher the per turn probability of revolt. Once in a state of revolt the effect is very similar to the BTS slave revolt event, all production halts and in addition stores may be destroyed and colonists killed. The revolt may end of its own accord or external military suppression may be applied at the cost of reducing the slave population. Each turn a city is in revolt their is a possibility of an Uprising which is basically what happened in Hati, all non-slaves are eliminated and city flips control.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

A few comments about your projects, on a nutshell :
- Africa screen : sounds excellent. I think african cities should not give that gold for refined products, excepts perhaps for merchandises ; else, it would be too easy to rely only on african for trading and thus not being affected by taxes and boycott. Buying slaves should remain main activity of african screen.

This is a very good point and one that I've been mulling over. While Africa had vast quantities of gold to trade with, it might be best to use the barter system in the Africa screen. So, instead of gold, you'd have trade points. Sell the goods in Africa for trade points, and slaves would have a trade point value.

- Slaves : like the idea of slaves requiring less foods ; but as it is already a great advantages, I think they should be "just correct" for raw production and bad for all other tasks.

Yes, that's my thought too. I've considered actually blocking them from doing certain tasks... in particular, I was thinking preventing them from being able to take certain professions. In particular, I was thinking of blocking them from some of the building jobs, water tiles, lumberjack and trapper.

- Plantations : I don't understand exactly imagine how it will work, but why not.

I'll post a screenshot since most people don't seem to quite be on my wavelength with this feature

- Colonial charter : excellent idea too. One of the choice could be : will the colony will be directly managed by the crown or by some private company with royal charter? For example, new-France was managed initially by a private company then directly integrated in royal domains.

That's true. Although I kind of think of the player as being the head of some joint-stock company running the colony. So such a civic would really reflect the nature of your government I think in the same way that Civ4 gave you a choice between Hereditary Rule, Representation, etc.

Some thoughts on Slaves,

Slaves would initialy be a high efficiency production method, cost would be modest with output thats on part with what citizens produce. This makes it advantageous to purchase slaves over recruiting European imigrants.

But as time passes the advantage drops, one method to drop efficiency would be that slaves do not receive the Liberty bonus modifier to their production, this would tend to naturally create a decrease in the efficiency of Slavery as cities become more urban and reach high liberty levels. This would reflect the North/South economic model as Slavery dwindled and disappeared in the North. How slaves factor into the liberty percentage also needs to be considered.

I was actually thinking that slaves would not be counted into the population. So if you had a city size 10 with half free half slave, you're rebel sentiment would be based on the 5 non-slave citizens.

The main driver of Slave revolts would be Slave/non-Slave ratio, the higher the ratio the higher the per turn probability of revolt. Once in a state of revolt the effect is very similar to the BTS slave revolt event, all production halts and in addition stores may be destroyed and colonists killed. The revolt may end of its own accord or external military suppression may be applied at the cost of reducing the slave population. Each turn a city is in revolt their is a possibility of an Uprising which is basically what happened in Hati, all non-slaves are eliminated and city flips control.

I would say that the troop presence in the city should also make a difference too. Garrisoned troops should reduce the chance of revolt moreso than more non-Slave citizens.

Right now though, I'm simply working on the mechanic for escaping slaves.

 

[johny smith]

There will be a new civilization for escaped slaves called the Maroons. Their leader is Zumbi. Escaping slaves that have no Native village to flee to will found new settlements on the fringe of your colonies. They will be hostile and will harrass your colonies until you crush them.

Why would the Marrons harrass your colony? Would you not think they would want to go in hiding and just arm theirselves to prevent from being enslaved again? I mean why would they want to attack a colony out of revenge? I would think it would be better they act just like some Natives in a lot of ways. Just my opinion though.

 

[Daniel Shays]

You may have a point johnny smith regarding maroon attacks out of sheer revenge.
However, as long as your colony still has slaves they may have the very good reason to liberate relatives or friends. Supply with arms, ammunition and other stuff that they may not be able to produce themselves could also provide good reasons.

Regarding slaves and liberty bells I think the Impaler made a good point.

Regarding Colonial Charter:
I like the idea of player as a head of a colonial company. I would however see it dependant on the nature of the charter whether that be a kind of stock company (commercial) or religious community (thinking of pilgrims).
I also wonder whether the charter should be a set of alternative decisions as in the constitution or whether it should be a more open list of privileges where you start with say 2 privileges and can acquire additional ones in the course of time. These could include manufacturing finished products, building factories, producing arms and cannon.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Why would the Marrons harrass your colony? Would you not think they would want to go in hiding and just arm theirselves to prevent from being enslaved again? I mean why would they want to attack a colony out of revenge? I would think it would be better they act just like some Natives in a lot of ways. Just my opinion though.

Ok... let me rephrase.. they will be hostile and right on your border. So they may not attack you, but they'll hinder any expansion or exploration in that direction until you've rid yourself of them.

Aggression is easily moddable. We see what works.

Regarding Colonial Charter:
I like the idea of player as a head of a colonial company. I would however see it dependant on the nature of the charter whether that be a kind of stock company (commercial) or religious community (thinking of pilgrims).
I also wonder whether the charter should be a set of alternative decisions as in the constitution or whether it should be a more open list of privileges where you start with say 2 privileges and can acquire additional ones in the course of time. These could include manufacturing finished products, building factories, producing arms and cannon.

Well, priveleges, as opposed to a set of binary options, strikes me more as Founding Fathers/technologies type game mechanics.

However, since I want to make civics categories that only apply under the colonial system and others that only apply after independence, and possibly some that only concern the monarchs, it could be possible to have categories that need to be unlocked... although i suppose there's not really a difference between that option and what they did in Civ4 where you have a set of default civics with no effects.

 

[johny smith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution

Well I just think of Haiti sort of in this case. I mean after a certain amount of time. I would think a Slave city should stop harassing your colonies like the Natives forgetting that you their stole land. And at that point they trade with you. Don't know how long.

Or maybe a better way would be to decide which foreign civs you are trading with and having something linked to your civic choice to decide if you would able to trade with former slaves or not.

I mean for example look at Haiti is what I am thinking. But it may just be a horrible idea.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Here's a screenshot of the Slave pedia:

Notice that the City produces 3 Food and the extra food is none and you've got two citizens, a regular citizen and a Slave that consumes -1 Food:

This is the purchasing popup in the Africa screen: