Mod

[Mongoloid Cow]

This is probably bad timing with all the other mods coming out now, but last night I started my unnamed mod. It features all of the main kingdoms and leagues between 280BC and 100BC. They are : Rome, Macedonia, Egypt, Syria, Bactria, Parthia, Cappadocia-Pontus, Achaea, Aetolia, Pergamum, Sparta, Carthage, Epirus, Illyria, the Celts and Greece. It won't be out for at least 3 months (I won''t have much time), but at the moment I am working on civs, cities and great leaders. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[Kryten]

Any Ancient history Mod is bound to get my attention!

But isn't Greece a bit small for for seven nations? Achaea & Sparta were Peloponnesian states, and Macedonia, Aetolia, Epirus and Illyria were all north of Peloponnesus, so that doesn't leave much room left for 'the Greeks'!

This could be thinned out a bit, because Sparta was well past it's former glory and was forced to join the Achaean League after Nabis' death about 190 BC, just before your scenario start date.

As for armies, Polybios in the 2nd century says several times that soldiers of the Aetolian League were neither equipped or trained for close fighting on level ground. so would probably be of the 'Peltast' type, while the Achaian League was reformed by Philopoimen in 208 BC in the Macedonian style, so would be armed as a pike phalanx (which, by coincidence, just happens to be two of the animations I am making for Exsanguination's Alexander the Great Mod!).

Last of all, although I am not sure of your map size, but wouldn't the Iberian Spanish also be an important nation to put between Carthage and Rome? (and their armies could also be concidered as of the 'Peltast' type; i.e. fast moving javelin throwers).

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

The Empire of Rhodes, Athens, Black Sea Colonies, Syracuse, Messenia, Massalia, Crete, Ionia, Aegean Cities, the Spanish Colonies, Italian Colonies, and Cyprus (also ruled by the Ptolemies at various times) is what makes up 'Greece'. Thrace was part of the Aetolian League, Illyria is too far north for Greece (modern Croatia and Slovenia), Epirus and Macedonia are barely part of it, Pergamum is in Turkey.

I chose to include Sparta because Pyrrhus II of Epirus died just after a war against Sparta in Argos, Cleomenes III and Agis IV reformed it, and Achaea was forced to become a puppet of Macedonia after a war with it. It also was one of the few Greek states not to recognise Macedonia as ruling any part of Greece since the time of Philip II and Alexander the Great.

The Celtiberians are part of the Celts. There weren't enough civs to include it.

 

[Kryten]

I see your point about not being able to have more than the maximum 16 civs and why you have not included 'minor' nations of the period such as Iberian Spain, Numidia, Bithynia, Galatia, Armenia and Judaea. One thing though; you said that you wanted Syracause and Messenia as part of the Greek civilization, but weren't these cities (and in fact the whole of Sicily) already conquered in 210 BC by Rome during the 2nd Punic War? Unless of course you wish to somehow simulate Eunus' 1st Slave War in 136-132 BC....

Here's a strange historical fact:-
Take a map of the Mediterranean and draw a line between Italy and Greece, then extend this line vertically all the way up past Norway/Sweden and down into Africa as far as the desert. All the ancient nations east of this line used archers and slingers, but all the nations west of this line (with the exception of the Numidians) didn't use archers but just slingers! Certainly the Italian nations such as Ligurians, Etruscans, Samnites, Latins, Campanians and the southern Greeks didn't use archers. Nor did the Spanish, Gauls or early Germans. The only archers west of this line that I can find are Numidian, and these were all foot archers, not mounted. It wasn't until Imperial Roman times that the archer became popular in the west, and by the fall of the western empire in 476 AD the archer had completely replaced the slinger both east & west of this line. I find this odd when you consider the fact that the human race has used bows for hunting for at least 10,000 years. Even the 5,000 year old 'Ice Man' found frozen in the Italian Alps carried a hunting bow.
This line is also the same as that used by Octavian and Mark Antony to divide up the Roman world in 40 BC at the end of the civil wars. And it was along this line that the later Roman Empire was formaly divided into East and West in 396 AD following the death of Theodosius.
.....odd coincidence isn't it....

 

[CivMonger]

yeah! and you could throw in some egyptians to the south, and china to the far east, and.... screw it. not like I actually know what I am talking about

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

OOPS! Meant 280BC - 100BC... :suicide: Changed it.

And that strange, historical fact will help with units when I get up to them.

Oh, almost forgot - would I be able to use your Peltast and Pike Phalanx? Please

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

I've gotat least 50 cities for most civs (somehow I got 96 for the Carthaginians), but I need more city names for the Illyirans, Epirotes, Pergamites (adj?) and the Cappadocians. If you have time, can you go here and help me?

http://www.geocities.com/mongoloidcow/scens.html

 

[Kryten]

Ah! If your starting date is 280 BC, then I take back everything I said. All your civilizations and cities make perfect sense.

Of course you may have my units in your mod. As I said in the Horse Archer thread, once you download them, their yours! I'll also try to find some of those city names you asked for (to be honest....I need a bit of a break from animating for a few days!).

Remember that East/West dividing line I was on about? Well, here's another curious fact:- that same line also divides the nations that used the Macedonian pike phalanx and those that didn't. I can't find any nation west of the line that used pikes in ancient times. The only Macedonian army to cross this line was that of Pyrrhus of Epirus in 280 BC. Even Carthage kept to it's old heavy infantry 'hoplite' spear formation, in addition to her many mercenaries (this is also odd, because the Spartan mercenary general Xanthippus in 255 BC reformed the Carthaginian army before the battle of Tunis, and he would certainly known about Macedonian tactics and equipment. On the other hand, the Spartans themselves didn't adopt the pike phalanx untill Cleomenes III reform of 227 BC, so maybe it's not so odd).
BTW, the Achaian League as well as several other Greek states replaced the traditional hoplite with peltasts in about 270 BC, then later in 208 BC adopted the Macedonian phalanx. Sparta seems to have gone straight from hoplites to pikes in 227 BC. And the Aitolian League, the Illyrians and the Thracians all used....guess what....yep, peltasts!

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Thanx 4 the info. Oh, and also your horse archer for the Parthians :arrow: