Modding Speculation

[SJSerio]

I have to say... things are looking too good in the modding side. It seems that they still feel that XML is the only way to make edits in a game. Forget the people that don't have time to pour over tons of lines of code just to change one little element. What is so hard about making a GUI based editor?

 

[Afforess]

I have to say... things are looking too good in the modding side. It seems that they still feel that XML is the only way to make edits in a game. Forget the people that don't have time to pour over tons of lines of code just to change one little element. What is so hard about making a GUI based editor?

It's actually slower to mod XML with a GUI than it is with a plain text editor, like Notepad++, which is why the community made GUI editors for Civ4 XML never caught on.

Forget the people that don't have time

If you don't have time to look at the XML, You don't have time to mod. Modding takes a lot of time out, and not everyone can make that commitment. It's not a reflection on you, just a fact of modding.

 

[The_J]

If you don't have time to look at the XML, You don't have time to mod. Modding takes a lot of time out, and not everyone can make that commitment. It's not a reflection on you, just a fact of modding.

You should have told me that before i began to mod... how much time has it been until the release...a half year, 4 hours per day around...okay, let's calculate with less, 150 days with 3 hours, that are still 450 hours...man, can't believe i had this time.

 

[Pazyryk]

This seems new to me:

BasicInfos\CIV5MemoryInfos.xml

Could this be a place to create variables that can be accessed from lua scripts? So much overhead in my python modding was recalculating (every turn) things that could have been done once and put in memory. Couldn't do that before without getting into the SDK, but maybe we can now? Or is this just wishful thinking?

 

[Afforess]

This seems new to me:

BasicInfos\CIV5MemoryInfos.xml

Could this be a place to create variables that can be accessed from lua scripts? So much overhead in my python modding was recalculating (every turn) things that could have been done once and put in memory. Couldn't do that before without getting into the SDK, but maybe we can now? Or is this just wishful thinking?

I suspect it has to do with AI leader Memory Types, diplomatic events, not saved variables.

 

[Afforess]

You should have told me that before i began to mod... how much time has it been until the release...a half year, 4 hours per day around...okay, let's calculate with less, 150 days with 3 hours, that are still 450 hours...man, can't believe i had this time.

I just released I have been modding for over a year now. I started two summers ago...

 

[Pazyryk]

You're probably right. However, I can still hope that such a simple and powerful modding tool (to have a few variables I can access without SDK modding) will be in Civ5.

 

[Afforess]

You're probably right. However, I can still hope that such a simple and powerful modding tool (to have a few variables I can access without SDK modding) will be in Civ5.

I believe that's the point of Lua. It will (or should, at any rate) have access to most of th key SDK variables, for cities, units, players, etc..., so you don't need SDK mod, excepting more involved features.

 

[RogerBacon]

Will the API be released at the same time as the game? Have they mentioned if it is still C++ or C# ? Will there be scripting via Python like Civ 4?

 

[Garett20]

Civ 5 uses lua instead of python.

 

[SJSerio]

It's actually slower to mod XML with a GUI than it is with a plain text editor, like Notepad++, which is why the community made GUI editors for Civ4 XML never caught on.

If you don't have time to look at the XML, You don't have time to mod. Modding takes a lot of time out, and not everyone can make that commitment. It's not a reflection on you, just a fact of modding.

I still don't understand why some people think that a GUI makes modding worse. Ater all, all XML is at its core is a database. The thing is, it is MUCH easier to modify a form than it is to scroll through tons of lines of text to mod one little entry. It takes a matter of seconds to do so where as making the change in an XML editor can take much longer. And having a GUI based editor to change something will NOT hinder the ability to create advanced mods for all of the programmers out there.

The reason that the GUI editors for CIV IV never caught on is because the ones that were creating them (who were not getting paid to do so) were sacrificing the time from doing their own mods to build them... and they got tired of it! I don't blame them for that. If the developers (who are on the clock and getting paid) would take a couple people who can put together even a desent GUI based editor (which they would be able to tweak as needed much easier when new elements are added by expansions... another problem with the home grown editors) then they would open up the world of modding to a much greater variety and not stifle creativity... limiting it to only those who know how to write the Lord of the Rings in C++ code.

 

[HighHandz]

I hope that the install will be the same and just as easy as in Civ4. Although this may change with Steam.

Does anyone know how we install mods with Steam?

 

[Garett20]

In game mod browser

 

[Fin]

I hope that the install will be the same and just as easy as in Civ4. Although this may change with Steam.

Does anyone know how we install mods with Steam?

I have Civ IV through Steam and it's just a couple more folders to open up. Program Files > Steam > steamapps > common > Civ IV > Mods. It's really easy enough. Though this ingame mod browser should make things even more easy.

 

[Afforess]

I still don't understand why some people think that a GUI makes modding worse.

I never said that. I said they were slower to use than plain text, not that it makes modding worse.

Ater all, all XML is at its core is a database. The thing is, it is MUCH easier to modify a form than it is to scroll through tons of lines of text to mod one little entry. It takes a matter of seconds to do so where as making the change in an XML editor can take much longer. And having a GUI based editor to change something will NOT hinder the ability to create advanced mods for all of the programmers out there.

The reason that the GUI editors for CIV IV never caught on is because the ones that were creating them (who were not getting paid to do so) were sacrificing the time from doing their own mods to build them... and they got tired of it! I don't blame them for that. If the developers (who are on the clock and getting paid) would take a couple people who can put together even a desent GUI based editor (which they would be able to tweak as needed much easier when new elements are added by expansions... another problem with the home grown editors) then they would open up the world of modding to a much greater variety and not stifle creativity... limiting it to only those who know how to write the Lord of the Rings in C++ code.

You know, you can always use the XML GUI that Shafer and the CIV5 dev team used, XMLSpy by Altova.

 

[The_J]

[...]

Moderator Action: Threads merged.
Not every questions needs its own thread, there are likely similar threads around, yu can use these.

 

[SJSerio]

That is not a GUI editor in my book. What is so difficult about making an front end database with easy to edit fields. I can guarantee that I can make a easy to navigate database in Access within a week (maybe two taking into account my job and commute). The only problem would be, since I am not a programmer, I would not be able to make it functional. I am a designer, not a programmer... contrary to what some believe (and that includes XML code because, as far as I am concerned, if it is made up of lines and functions, etc, than it is programming), there is a difference!

 

[RogerBacon]

Civ 5 uses lua instead of python.

Damn! I hate lua. I've tried to get my hands around it a couple of times in other games and it never works. Why would they switch? Python was so great becasue you could make a change alt-tab back into a running game and see the changes right away. No compiling needed. I HATE lua!

 

[Afforess]

What is so difficult about making an front end database with easy to edit fields.

Who are you railing against? Modders or Firaxis? It's difficult to tell.

I can guarantee that I can make a easy to navigate database in Access within a week (maybe two taking into account my job and commute). The only problem would be, since I am not a programmer, I would not be able to make it functional. I am a designer, not a programmer... contrary to what some believe (and that includes XML code because, as far as I am concerned, if it is made up of lines and functions, etc, than it is programming), there is a difference!

If it's so easy, then why hasn't one been made for Civ4? I think it's a lot more complex than you think, and wouldn't be as useful as you imagine...

I should write that down as a quote.

 

[Afforess]

Damn! I hate lua. I've tried to get my hands around it a couple of times in other games and it never works. Why would they switch? Python was so great becasue you could make a change alt-tab back into a running game and see the changes right away. No compiling needed. I HATE lua!

Lua is however, significantly faster than python. You could speed up Civ4 about 35% by removing python. That's no small amount.