[R&F] Mongolia First Look

[Victoria]

So +1 visibility from caravan, +1 from printing and +1 from a spy means a ramp up from +3 to +9 over eras.
Not 100% convinced a trading post gives one though, a trade route does, before the post is created.
We also not not know if these bonus are kept or degraded slowly but that would be a special ability or change.

The UU will be expensive. Knights are already the OP domination troop and the horsemen if got early. With the Mongols Their +1 move for stables also encourages GG making so +3 movement knights with +5-+8 combat strength during their agressive period is not at all pleasant.

Then the ability to take other horses with a higher combat strength (if like Aztecs it will include CS troops but not barbs, if like sea dogs it will only be major civs). Both Aztecs and sea dogs use the same mechanic for capture... sea dogs mechanic linked in my signature.

I would say they are a fearsome tank troop just too fast and slippery to deal with in pvp but vs the AI I would certainly use ranged which ignores their + values perhaps in combo with pikes and rough ground would still be considered an easyish counter, it's just the move speed and ZOC ignore meaning they will often be able to hit the ranged troops.

Like the Macedonian or Persians, pre-emptively hit them hard. If a civ between you befriend and joint war with them, they could even be a half decent joint war ally. They have a weak start unless close to horses. A Mongol AI on Emperor will build UU which means turtle, kill, invade and they will try and pump out UU against you too slowly. The AI also targets the weak so a few sacrificial scouts would allow divide and conquer.

 

[Siptah]

So I'm very late to this party, but I still want to share my view.

Glad the Mongols are back, but a bit disappointed that they went with the man of the millennium again.

Mongol Horde: I don't think the +3 for cavalry units is that good a bonus. Sure, Knights are already too strong, but I still hope for a pikeman buff at some point. How good the capturing is depends entirely on the percentage and if it is working as intended (see Sea Dogs). Many people compare the Mongols to Scythia, and I think the double light cavalry might be a better ability than capturing - even if the latter might lead to an unlimited force. And the +5 against wounded units combined with the (nerfed) healing that Scythia also has seems more powerful as well.

Örtoo: I'm not sure of the use of instant trade post besides the instant visibility. It's nice that you have extra visibility - it's not as good as CdMs, though. The combat strength bonus from visibility is capped at 12 - although this isn't possible at war time. I guess realistically it's a +9 at max, while having 0 in the ancient era when you try a rush or defend against one and always at least +3 from the renaissance onwards. The Aztecs easily beat that imho. Of course, you might want to combine that with other bonuses (like Mongol Horde) and others...

Ordu: Now this is very powerful and might be one of the best buildings in the game. However, I really hope it gives the usual stable boost (faster exp, production) as well and they just didn't mention it. That you'll miss out on barracks in most cases isn't that much a problem, you want mounted units anyway. Combine it with the GG points you get from building encampments and stables...

Keshiq: One of the best UUs as it seems. It sure needs to be hard build, and I don't know what unit class it might be. If it is archers, it would be even more OP - I actually hope for light cavalry and would update in that line as well. I guess they don't do the same thing as with Immortals (at first) and give them the ability to capture cities - if they can't and you can only attack cities with ranged attacks, they seem slightly weaker. The movement is awesome! And that you can transport civilian units, missionaries and siege equipment fast invites some Blitzkrieg tactics.

Summary: The Mongols are a strong civ, but not as strong as some others (Aztecs, Scythia, Sumer, Macedon). None of their abilities is a bad one, and two (UB, UU) are some of the best in the game. I'm not sure if Örtoo is worth a lot of changing the way you conquer. You were able to win already, having some more combat strength is helpful, but not necessary. So I don't think they have a lot of unique gameplay to them except for the medieval era, when you'll probably be the strongest player in the game and do what the Mongols did: conquer as much as possible in a short time frame. I think they are as vulnerable to rushes as all civs without a decent ancient/classical era bonus. In the late game, the movement from Ordu will still be nice, but not as important as in medieval times, Örto won't be as important as other bonuses as well, the Kesiqs are gone, the Mongol Horde might still be very nice (depending on the capturing rate and if your enemy uses cavalry units at all against you). They might be fun to role-play, but I don't see me making more than two or three games with them. And I think we don't need a scenario featuring them as protagonist, it seems too close to the normal play style of these Mongols.

Side notes:
a) I like the red & red colors, but they are impossible to read. Why are they doing this? Lately all colors of the civs seem strange choices.
b) Is this really how you pronounce Genghis in english? Even worse than poor Vasco...

 

[KayAU]

A trading post gives visibility for the Mongols. It is part of their unique ability, which has three components: instant trading posts, trading posts give visibility, and visibility gives a combat bonus.

 

[Victoria]

A trading post gives visibility for the Mongols. It is part of their unique ability, which has three components: instant trading posts, trading posts give visibility, and visibility gives a combat bonus.

Great, thanks, that means +3 at the start, and +3 for printing and +3 for a spy. A nice ramp up over time.
+9 tanks!... with promotions ugh.

 

[Disgustipated]

With movement points rounded down rather than up, and rivers slow units down massively

So I'm thinking this will be the only way to counter Keshig's right? But even a river may not work since they are ranged and can just shoot over the river. The only way this would work is if there is forest/jungle on the other side of the river, and you are 1 tile away from the edge of the river (with the forest/jungle separating you), draw the Keshig across the river, and then hit them next turn. But you are still unlikely to kill them in one turn, and they will retreat to safety.

 

[nzcamel]

I agree with this - so just set it up so the required resource for a UU spawns near you then everyone's happy.

Kinda misses the point. Look - iron (for instance) is important to every Civilization. Giving it to the Romans for free so they can build their super soldier is a mockery. If they want it bad -which they do- they'll fight for it like everyone else. I don't really see the difference between putting it near them, and giving it to them.

So I'm thinking this will be the only way to counter Keshig's right? But even a river may not work since they are ranged and can just shoot over the river. The only way this would work is if there is forest/jungle on the other side of the river, and you are 1 tile away from the edge of the river (with the forest/jungle separating you), draw the Keshig across the river, and then hit them next turn. But you are still unlikely to kill them in one turn, and they will retreat to safety.

I was pointing out a big difference that I think has been over looked in this discussion (but not elsewhere) between movement in VI, and in V. The terrain in VI makes for some great tactical maneuvers, and I think anyone who puts some thought into how to use what is present to their advantage (including where they place any new cities from the moment they realise the Horde is near by) will have an enjoyable challenge, rather than a guaranteed hiding.

 

[Arent11]

I'm fine with cavalry being strong on open field. I would just want that they have disadvantages in rough terrain & cities/districts. And I would hope that pikemen finally become a hard counter against knights. Because that's what they are supposed to be.

 

[Siptah]

Do we have the first civ for which it might be worth it to be suzerain of Preslav?

 

[Uberfrog]

Knights are already the OP domination troop and the horsemen if got early. With the Mongols Their +1 move for stables also encourages GG making so +3 movement knights with +5-+8 combat strength during their agressive period is not at all pleasant.

Yeah, I think super-boosted Knights with a General will be the core of a Mongol conquering horde, with a couple of hard-built Keshigs for ranged support and to rush some battering rams into the fray. Although you probably won't even need the rams...

I'm fine with cavalry being strong on open field. I would just want that they have disadvantages in rough terrain & cities/districts. And I would hope that pikemen finally become a hard counter against knights. Because that's what they are supposed to be.

Remember we will also have Pike & Shot in the Renaissance, so if you're defending against a Knight army, you will want to beeline Gunpowder.

 

[leandrombraz]

I like this interaction between diplomacy (at least a diplomatic mechanic) and how effective your units are. I think this concept would be interesting if applied in a more broad way to diplomacy, using friendship/alliance instead of visibility. Something like a minor strength bonus for each friend you have and a major bonus for each ally. This would reward players who invest in diplomacy, improving their ability to defend themselves and to wage short or justified wars (liberation, reconquest, protectorate). Meanwhile, a warmonger can't use the bonus to boost their offensive power, since he is likely to lose friends and allies as the warmongering penalty pile up.

 

[Siptah]

I like this interaction between diplomacy (at least a diplomatic mechanic) and how effective your units are. I think this concept would be interesting if applied in a more broad way to diplomacy, using friendship/alliance instead of visibility. Something like a minor strength bonus for each friend you have and a major bonus for each ally. This would reward players who invest in diplomacy, improving their ability to defend themselves and to wage short or justified wars (liberation, reconquest, protectorate). Meanwhile, a warmonger can't use the bonus to boost their offensive power, since he is likely to lose friends and allies as the warmongering penalty pile up.

The bonus for having an alliance is having an alliance. That should be enough combat strength bonus.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Yeah, but do they stay UU's, or do they become a standard unit upon capture?

They stay. I had English Longships!

(Only they were bloody useless cos I had my Sea Dogs raid coastal tiles. So I just set them to explore)

 

[nzcamel]

Well that's cool

 

[leandrombraz]

The bonus for having an alliance is having an alliance. That should be enough combat strength bonus.

Yes but in practice it isn't, reason why they are trying to make alliance more attractive in this expansion. War is OP in Civ, it's always more effective to be aggressive, you only take the diplomatic route if you're roleplaying or just enjoy peaceful matches like I do. Alliance for the sake of having an ally will never be good enough to be a viable strategy, even if the AI was an effective ally, it need some kind of reward that make it an option that is more than just for roleplay. A bonus that improve your ability to deal with warmongers and to wage justified war is a good start and it have the additional benefit of making domination a bit more challenging.

Anyway, I think mechanics like Mongolia's UA have potential that Firaxis should explore.

 

[Morningcalm]

The Mongols get a free trading post the moment they send a trade route to a city.

Not very much of a bonus, particularly in light of Rome's better peacetime powers. I was thinking Mongolia could at least have another minor bonus like governors taking less time to establish themselves in a city (allusion to the mobility of the Mongols), etc. But I'm happy there is some trade-military synergy; this is quite historically accurate (unlike Macedon's nonexistent war weariness, when war weariness was what initially caused Alexander to stop or slow his conquests).

 

[Victoria]

Not very much of a bonus

Well, send a caravan to each of their cities in a single turn ten the next turn declare war. Once the war is over the string of trading posts could net say +3 gold per trade route moving through that area. Its not blinding but its not to be underestimated either.

 

[PhilBowles]

b) Is this really how you pronounce Genghis in english? Even worse than poor Vasco...

It's the conventional English pronunciation and the way he's been pronounced in past Civ games, which is probably why they kept it. Modern orthography prefers to write the name Chinggis, which is presumably more phonetically accurate (I don't actually know what the correct pronunciation should be).

 

[Siptah]

It's the conventional English pronunciation and the way he's been pronounced in past Civ games, which is probably why they kept it. Modern orthography prefers to write the name Chinggis, which is presumably more phonetically accurate (I don't actually know what the correct pronunciation should be).

What makes me wonder is that they changed the City names and Keshiq orthography. So I thought they would change it for the leader as well, but didn‘t. Nonetheless this got my hopes up that we will finally see Quechua City names for the Inka.
Chinggis spoken english gets close to the Mongolian pronunciation. Khan is harder though, since I think there is no similar sound to the Mongolian Kh in english.

 

[nzcamel]

Now that we know it's Chinggis; I'm interested to see if @Eagle Pursuit is right in who will replace him as Great General...

 

[KayAU]

Great, thanks, that means +3 at the start, and +3 for printing and +3 for a spy. A nice ramp up over time.
+9 tanks!... with promotions ugh.

+12 if they get Mary Katherine Goddard. Yeah, the Mongols are going to be a real pain.