ferretbacon
Obsessor
Speaking for myself, I'd rather have strongly flavored, out of balance uniques than milder, balanced ones. The game for me is either single player or playing with a close friend, so competitive balance isn't a great concern.
[R&F] Mongolia First Look
- Thread starter bite
- Start date
Speaking for myself, I'd rather have strongly flavored, out of balance uniques than milder, balanced ones. The game for me is either single player or playing with a close friend, so competitive balance isn't a great concern.
criZp
Deity
If you don't want competition there's always settler mode to play on.
Moderator Action: Please do not troll the forums. Discuss the topic, not other members. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Last edited by a moderator:
ferretbacon
Obsessor
Competitive in the sense of online human competition that needs to be fair, not difficulty. Facing stronger, out of balance uniques means more difficulty, which I'm fine with (as per my post that you misinterpreted).
pgm123
Emperor
- Joined
- May 21, 2017
- Messages
- 1,168
Do they get combat bonuses? I think you'll have to use crossbowmen and terrain to counter them.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 18,949
Precisely. You have to neutralize their range and mobility by boxing them in between your units and whatever terrain features you can manage.
Ivan Hunger
King
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2014
- Messages
- 637
Those sound like the kind of starts this game loves to give me, so I guess I'm going to be fine.
SupremacyKing2
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 18,949
Yay, it finally works on PC.
jddods
Prince
The most excited I've been since they added Alex
The Highwayman
King
Wow....I figured they would have cavalry bonuses and be very good...but wow. How are their Knights and Keshig going to look with stacked Great Generals buffing them? 
Aurelesk
King
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2017
- Messages
- 623
This is the first thing that came in my mind when I see the diplomatic visibility will increase the combat strength.
Who knew that someone will search for Diplomatic Visibility one day!
Mongolia seems to be a really really good warmonger. Knights are now one of the best units right now (easy to have early, and can create a great power gap), they have the Keshig with the same technology, +3 combat strength for cavalry, increased by 3 more with Printing or Trading Post. We will see how the new mechanics and balance will affect the game, because if this beast was in the game right now, I think he will be pretty overpowered.
Beelining technologies to have stirrups will end up entering in a Dark Age if I get it right, so maybe early agression will be not that powerful.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
To echo some earlier comments in this thread, I do wish civs like Mongolia and Macedonia got *some* peacetime bonuses too--being all out war civs is inaccurate for both--maybe Macedonia should get some cultural bonuses and Mongolia some barbarian camp/trade gold bonuses, however minor.
That being said, I think the Civ design is otherwise neatly historically accurate. Notably it shows since the Mongolia news release goes into the historical flavor of the leader and Civ ability more than they did for Seondeok (since Firaxis probably knows the Three Kingdoms of Korea had nothing to do with mines getting science bonuses and farms getting bonuses next to seowons from the later Choson dynasty era).
That being said, I think the Civ design is otherwise neatly historically accurate. Notably it shows since the Mongolia news release goes into the historical flavor of the leader and Civ ability more than they did for Seondeok (since Firaxis probably knows the Three Kingdoms of Korea had nothing to do with mines getting science bonuses and farms getting bonuses next to seowons from the later Choson dynasty era).
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2004
- Messages
- 4,843
Ok I just updated my Nations Map (see the old one here) with the Mongols, and I am glad they did not pick a later leader, I have a feeling the big map will be quite crowded
Last edited:
Lily_Lancer
Deity
Both Keshig and Ortu are not useful.
But Mongol Horseman and Mongol Chariots are where the most strength lies on, as well as Mongol Knights.
But Mongol Horseman and Mongol Chariots are where the most strength lies on, as well as Mongol Knights.
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,257
A diplomatic visibility bonus that is actually useful (unlike France)? Good work.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
For their next trick, could Firaxis just give us a diplomatic visibility mechanic that is actually useful, or alternatively ditch it?
I think you underestimate how useful movement bonuses are. Mongolia's going to want ortus simply because they're functionally stables and it's a cavalry-based military civ - getting a free movement point is a bigger deal than it is for something like the Royal Navy Dockyard, as faster movement on land is much more valuable than faster movement at sea and allows you to move through difficult terrain more rapidly.
Similarly, the Keshig is very fast - as someone pointed out it's basically a highly mobile crossbowman. There will also be times when it's genuinely relevant that it can move a builder, settler or Great Person faster than they would by themselves.
Last edited:
drubell
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2010
- Messages
- 515
Something to note is that in that video, the keshig had the Volley promotion, which makes it a Ranged unit class. This means that there will never be a time when promoting a keshig is a good idea.
From the video’s Stirrups tech screen, it appears that the keshig is a Knight replacement rather than a Horseman replacement. I dislike this because, in Civ 6’s current iteration, there are still only 3 light cavalry units in the game (horseman, cavalry, helicopter). Light cavalry has no upgrade to the horseman until Industrial and heavy cavalry upgrades to tanks in the Modern era.
This means that the only melee cavalry unit Mongolia has is a Classical Era horseman ALL the way up until the Industrial Era. And even with Mongolian bonuses, the normal horseman gets outclassed solidly by the time the early Renaissance units come out. Furthermore, even the Cavalry in the Industrial Era has to skip a lot of important techs to get built (Cavalry are not on the line for almost any district or building outside of Encampments, from what I remember from the top of my head.
For these reasons, I would not be too worried about defending myself against Mongolia. The light cavalry line NEEDS to have 4 units instead of 3. But since they don’t, well, have fun with only a 35 strength melee cavalry unit until the Industrial Era.
As far as the game’s current balance on anti-cavalry vs cavalry, it should also be remembered that the current bonus that pikemen do to horse units is negligible to the point that building anti-cavalry units are non-optimal if you can field melee units instead. It should also be remembered knight unit has a 7 combat strength base lead over the pikeman, which makes the pikeman a rather poor unit for attacking its same-era counterpart.
The cavalry lines in this game are not balanced very well, and I feel that creating a Civ that is heavily-balanced on cavalry units is going to show the above problems pretty solidly when people actually play Mongolia. Give light cavalry at least 4 unit tiers like every other unit class in the game (instead of light cavalry having 3) and make anti-cavalry actually designed to threaten cavalry units rather than leaving them to be so weak they don’t threaten cavalry.
From the video’s Stirrups tech screen, it appears that the keshig is a Knight replacement rather than a Horseman replacement. I dislike this because, in Civ 6’s current iteration, there are still only 3 light cavalry units in the game (horseman, cavalry, helicopter). Light cavalry has no upgrade to the horseman until Industrial and heavy cavalry upgrades to tanks in the Modern era.
This means that the only melee cavalry unit Mongolia has is a Classical Era horseman ALL the way up until the Industrial Era. And even with Mongolian bonuses, the normal horseman gets outclassed solidly by the time the early Renaissance units come out. Furthermore, even the Cavalry in the Industrial Era has to skip a lot of important techs to get built (Cavalry are not on the line for almost any district or building outside of Encampments, from what I remember from the top of my head.
For these reasons, I would not be too worried about defending myself against Mongolia. The light cavalry line NEEDS to have 4 units instead of 3. But since they don’t, well, have fun with only a 35 strength melee cavalry unit until the Industrial Era.
As far as the game’s current balance on anti-cavalry vs cavalry, it should also be remembered that the current bonus that pikemen do to horse units is negligible to the point that building anti-cavalry units are non-optimal if you can field melee units instead. It should also be remembered knight unit has a 7 combat strength base lead over the pikeman, which makes the pikeman a rather poor unit for attacking its same-era counterpart.
The cavalry lines in this game are not balanced very well, and I feel that creating a Civ that is heavily-balanced on cavalry units is going to show the above problems pretty solidly when people actually play Mongolia. Give light cavalry at least 4 unit tiers like every other unit class in the game (instead of light cavalry having 3) and make anti-cavalry actually designed to threaten cavalry units rather than leaving them to be so weak they don’t threaten cavalry.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
Check it again (time point 1:12 shows Stirrups). Mongolia gets two units at Stirrups, the Knight and the Keshig. It's a unique unit like the Hwacha or Crouching Tiger, it doesn't replace anything.
Noble Zarkon
Elite Quattromaster - Immortal (BTS)
Super Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
The Mongols get a free trading post the moment they send a trade route to a city.
