Mongolia

[chicorbeef]

Mongolia's 250% tribute is still pretty wack. It might be "balanced" in the long-run sense that it's a one-off bonus, but it totally throws off the early game, particularly for human players who can abuse that spike.

Can we please return the Heavy Tribute bonus to normal, now that the hard cooldown is gone, so that this stuff doesn't happen.

 

[Bhawb]

So? Civs are allowed to do broken stuff during their windows of power, that is the entire point. Mongolia without getting those extra bonuses is just a warmongering civ that can't abuse Heavy Tribute. People zone in on "omg 250% heavy tributes" without paying attention to the fact that you can only ever tribute once per city. Other civs I can Heavy Tribute a CS over and over early game, especially if I'm bullying their neighboring civs. Unless we can say that Mongolia is actually steamrolling the game off the early powerspike (which is not my experience both as or against Mongolia), its fine that they have some crazy early game shenanigans, considering that is where 80% of their unique strength is.

 

[pineappledan]

its fine that they have some crazy early game shenanigans, considering that is where 80% of their unique strength is.

Uhh. How is the +2 move on mounted/armor and ZOC not 80% of it? This heavy tribute was a tacked on thing only a few versions ago. it is NOT Mongolia's core strat

 

[crdvis16]

I just haven't seen Mongolia be overpowered in my games, and I don't think I felt overpowered when I played as them right after they were changed. They warmonger well but so do a lot of other civs.

Also, I think their heavy tribute mechanic is just fun. Timing the demand to happen when it will most benefit you, like grabbing a wonder from a production tribute, is interesting. If 250% seems excessive it could be toned down I'm sure but I'd personally say it shouldn't go down to the normal value.

The problem before was that the Mongolian UA was arguably worse than not having a UA at all- you couldn't repeatedly heavy tribute like other warmongers and all you got in return was the ability to take CSs without a fight. Taking a CS without a fight isn't really that much of a benefit when you could probably just take that CS the old fashioned way and get some experience for your troops for your trouble.

 

[Bhawb]

Uhh. How is the +2 move on mounted/armor and ZOC not 80% of it? This heavy tribute was a tacked on thing only a few versions ago. it is NOT Mongolia's core strat

Mongolia's core strat is using Annexation to quickly build up a stronger-than-average empire with Annexation and then bullying everyone nearby every time you hit a new ranged unit mini powerspike. Without getting the bonus off of Heavy Tribute they struggle to get a meaningful enough lead to make up for the fact that once Annexation isn't viable anymore the entire Mongolia kit is a unique promotion on GGs and a unit line.

So yes, actually Mongolia's core strat heavily depends on getting those yields, and according to G they aren't overperforming which just confirms the point. If this was truly an unnecessary part of the kit that was throwing everything out of balance, they'd have the results to show for it.

 

[chicorbeef]

Also, I think their heavy tribute mechanic is just fun. Timing the demand to happen when it will most benefit you, like grabbing a wonder from a production tribute, is interesting. If 250% seems excessive it could be toned down I'm sure but I'd personally say it shouldn't go down to the normal value..

They don't actually get when they annex Mercantile CS'es. It's more of an issue with //, but honestly...yeah, I take back my previous comments, after actually playing an early game with Mongolia, they're powerful, but not broken, I feel. The new happiness system actually does a lot to rein in Mongolia, as annexed cities will have a permanent penalty to building Military until Courthouses.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I'd propose that Mongolia's UA be limited to one annexation per individual city state. So if Genghis bully-annexes a city state and later on that city state is liberated, Genghis can't bully-annex it again. The code would be analogue to France's or Assyria's limit of their UA for once per city.

I'm currently playing a game where Genghis is my neighbour. I've liberated the City States he annexed but after peacing out due to war weariness he bully-annexed them again a few turns into our peace deal. The fact that city states are very weak after being liberated makes it even easier for Genghis to repeatedly annex a city state.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Bump.

 

[Gidoza]

Does anyone else find the UU Khan...boring?

I originally thought that the healing bonus made units heal even when moving. It's not the case of course - bonus healing of course is still useful, it just seems underwhelming when in the scope of the whole game we always have spare GG we don't know what to do with anyways.

 

[andersw]

Does anyone else find the UU Khan...boring?

I originally thought that the healing bonus made units heal even when moving. It's not the case of course - bonus healing of course is still useful, it just seems underwhelming when in the scope of the whole game we always have spare GG we don't know what to do with anyways.

The main thing is that its got extra movement so it can keep up with a mounted force.
The healing from Khan works when moving if your units have the March promo.

 

[Gidoza]

The main thing is that its got extra movement so it can keep up with a mounted force.
The healing from Khan works when moving if your units have the March promo.

I do realize that the extra movement helps it keep up with moving units. It strikes me as dull anyways.

Moreover, the healing bonus only seems to affect naval units in the same tile, but not adjacent tiles.

 

[a3kov]

AI Mongolia is one of the worst performing Civ in my games consistently. Something has to be done as I think the AI doesn't know how to use it's abilities properly

 

[Asterix Rage]

AI Mongolia is one of the worst performing Civ in my games consistently

Mine as well. There is a big gap between what AI and Human do with Khan.

 

[azum4roll]

Mine as well. There is a big gap between what AI and Human do with Khan.

Still better than AI Assyria's Siege Towers, I guess.

 

[Zanteogo]

I'd propose that Mongolia's UA be limited to one annexation per individual city state. So if Genghis bully-annexes a city state and later on that city state is liberated, Genghis can't bully-annex it again. The code would be analogue to France's or Assyria's limit of their UA for once per city.

I'm currently playing a game where Genghis is my neighbour. I've liberated the City States he annexed but after peacing out due to war weariness he bully-annexed them again a few turns into our peace deal. The fact that city states are very weak after being liberated makes it even easier for Genghis to repeatedly annex a city state.

You have to gift units to the city state and make sure your are protecting it. Makes annexation difficult.

 

[pineappledan]

Mongolia tribute is overtuned.

The tribute yields from authority stack with the 2x multiplier, and the defense ignore ability all combine to give a massive force multiplier that lets you tribute the equivalent of full policies from cultural city-states in the mid-late game:

Spoiler evidence :

IMO, Zulu and Mongolia should swap the Military force and the 2x tribute yield multipliers.
That way, Mongolia has all the bonuses towards calculating tribute, and Zulu gets the straightforward multiplier.
Also, the multiplier should be applied AFTER authority tribute policy yields are calculated.

 

[Stalker0]

Mongolia tribute is overtuned.

The tribute yields from authority stack with the 2x multiplier, and the defense ignore ability all combine to give a massive force multiplier that lets you tribute the equivalent of full policies from cultural city-states in the mid-late game:

Spoiler evidence :

IMO, Zulu and Mongolia should swap the Military force and the 2x tribute yield multipliers.
That way, Mongolia has all the bonuses towards calculating tribute, and Zulu gets the straightforward multiplier.
Also, the multiplier should be applied AFTER authority tribute policy yields are calculated.

If this really a Mongolia problem, or the fact that Tribute is still a bit weird in terms of its scaling?

 

[chicorbeef]

If this really a Mongolia problem, or the fact that Tribute is still a bit weird in terms of its scaling?

You're probably right, but
a) I like pineappledan's idea of switching the Zulu/Mongolia tribute bonuses, it makes sense and works better balance-wise.
b) 100% bonus is very significant, it at least shouldn't be paired with any other tribute bonuses, in fact I'd argue that maybe it's just too high of a modifier regardless of how valuable tributing is.

 

[CrazyG]

If this really a Mongolia problem, or the fact that Tribute is still a bit weird in terms of its scaling?

I think (think not know because I can't find the files) that normal tribute scales on the city states population, but heavy tribute scales based on your empires output, which is why it can reach such high levels later in the game.

 

[Deljade]

Played Mongolia the other day and the yields can get pretty high in the late game. I think it's better than something like Poland's UA in terms of policies unlocked, again, this mostly concerns Industrial+ in my game. The modifier in combination with Authority's modifiers does that, I think, as well as the increasing yields in later eras. Mongolia also gets mounted ranged bonuses in their UA too, though I consider these somewhat unreliable for aggressive plays due to terrain variations, rivers, forested hills etc.
In any case, I think it's a bit weird that the Mongolian flavour of conquering City-States is gone now, this was a uniquely Mongolian thing even in vanilla civ5 and no other civ was directly incentivised to do it.
I think it would be nice to see it return, an idea I had was for the 100% more tribute to be replaced with getting a heavy tribute or the yields of heavy tribute when they conquer a CS. Of course this is effectively double tribute since you should be able to demand a heavy tribute before conquering, therefore this new ability could give 100 or 50 or 75% of the heavy tribute and it may, or may not be activating the tribute policy from Authority. This will discourage perpetual milking of City-States that every Authority civ does in favour of a more unique playstyle (arguably more fit for a civ like Mongolia too, thematically)

The Khan is somewhat underwhelming too, albeit convenient with the extra movement. Maybe having them be earned somewhat faster than normal GGs would help the AI a little.