Mongolia

[chicorbeef]

Why does Mongolia still have +250% yields from Heavy Tribute now that the annex no longer has a hard cooldown? Shouldn't we just bring those yields back to normal again?

 

[andersw]

I mean, he's a warmonger so he's kind of doing what he's supposed to do right? I don't see him snowball out of control in my games. Usually he eats up some civs/CSs on his continent but doesn't have a good way to convert those gains into an actual win even if he's very threatening to his neighbors. Is he leading in tech or policies? Is he actually going to win a domination victory?

Well thats the thing, normally an AI takes a bit of the pie and slows down.
I had to hurry to take china because he was rolling them from his side, CHINA dammit.
No he's more than just a warmonger in my game.
He's a few techs behind me but he had no issues keeping up with "great barrier reef-carthage" and he's a lot ahead in supply, production, army (thats 22 cities vs 14) and wonders .
Now for those perfect play never lose a unit players he would probably be less worries but for me ...
I've not seen him that often so I can't say if it's a recent change, if he's been this good for awhile or if it's just a fluke in this game.
An AI this far ahead before industrialism on king is very rare imo.

Anyway, post wasnt to complain, it was to hear if he generally rolls out of control on this patch or just in this game for me.

 

[doublex55]

I had Mongolia eat 6 city states in 20 turns and shoot ahead 5 techs by early classical. Like 17 techs to 12.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s not just you. He was given a triple bonus on heavy tribute and had his force-annex cooldown removed in a single patch, then hasn’t really been revisited. Warmonger AI tend to pump out more units than it needs, which terrifies city-states. As a result Mongolia just noms CS.

It’s a weird situation because the UA directly rewards the AI’s tendency to overproduce units, so it’s a more potent civ than in a human’s hands

 

[crdvis16]

I had Mongolia eat 6 city states in 20 turns and shoot ahead 5 techs by early classical. Like 17 techs to 12.

I'd be more worried about this situation- a Mongolia that's ahead in techs or policies. A normal warmonger that's eaten his neighbors isn't abnormal, but one that can consistently convert that conquest into a tech and policy lead is much more dangerous. I haven't seen Mongolia be much different than other warmongers in my games, though- usually they prey on weak neighbors and conquer a bunch but have trouble converting that into an actual win. If you're on his continent then you have to defend yourself, sure, but you can still win the game.

The AI civs that usually seem more like runaways are ones who manage to get tech and policy leads. My current game Egypt has wonder spammed on the other continent and has opened his ideology before most of us are more than 1 or 2 policies into the Industrial trees. I'd rather have Mongolia eating everyone but at a normal policy/tech count than what Egypt is doing- I can deal with a warmonger better than I can deal with huge policy/tech leads.

 

[crdvis16]

Well thats the thing, normally an AI takes a bit of the pie and slows down.
I had to hurry to take china because he was rolling them from his side, CHINA dammit.
No he's more than just a warmonger in my game.
He's a few techs behind me but he had no issues keeping up with "great barrier reef-carthage" and he's a lot ahead in supply, production, army (thats 22 cities vs 14) and wonders .
Now for those perfect play never lose a unit players he would probably be less worries but for me ...
I've not seen him that often so I can't say if it's a recent change, if he's been this good for awhile or if it's just a fluke in this game.
An AI this far ahead before industrialism on king is very rare imo.

Anyway, post wasnt to complain, it was to hear if he generally rolls out of control on this patch or just in this game for me.

This just doesn't sound like "rolling out of control" to me. If you're still ahead in tech then you're in a decent spot assuming you can defend yourself. Warmongers get hated and attacked in the world congress- I wouldn't be surprised to see him implode if he gets a bunch of sanctions imposed on him. Is he actually going to win the game?

 

[crdvis16]

Why does Mongolia still have +250% yields from Heavy Tribute now that the annex no longer has a hard cooldown? Shouldn't we just bring those yields back to normal again?

I think the thought process was that annexing the CS meant you lost out on ever demanding heavy tribute again for the rest of the game so it needed some sort of reward. One could argue that annexing the CS is the reward but it's not that hard to just conquer the CS the old fashioned way so being able to do it for "free" is a minor perk. I think those arguments/reasons are laid out in the previous pages of this thread.

 

[amateurgamer88]

For me, I dislike Mongolia because this civ is different from other warmongers. Why? For other warmongers, they have to take cities from their neighbors to really snowball. If their neighbor happens to defend well, then the warmonger falls more and more behind unless it can somehow turn things around later. Mongolia doesn't require that because this civ gets steroids from CS that already gets them going. With that steroid, they can get a huge edge at a time when that edge can translate to a massive lead. Imagine a Mongolia that enters Classical Era quite a bit sooner than its neighbors and gets units like Skirmishers. Archers and Spearmen can't stop that and even Horsemen can only stop them with sufficient numbers.

Even if Mongolia doesn't get a massive tech lead, they can become stronger in a number of other ways. They can pull ahead in religion where they can find and enhance or spread rapidly if they get two Religious CS nearby. Cultural CS gives them a pretty big boost to Culture which, if Mongolia haven't expanded much, gives them a massive lead in policies that other civs can't compete with until possibly much later. If Mongolia then goes on a conquering spree, I can't see how they don't maintain their policy lead and also gain a tech lead as well.

Overall, Mongolia, to me, just gets too many yields too quickly at a time when those yields have the most impact. You won't notice those yields in Medieval era but you certainly will in the Ancient Era.

 

[andersw]

For me, I dislike Mongolia because this civ is different from other warmongers. Why? For other warmongers, they have to take cities from their neighbors to really snowball. If their neighbor happens to defend well, then the warmonger falls more and more behind unless it can somehow turn things around later. Mongolia doesn't require that because this civ gets steroids from CS that already gets them going. With that steroid, they can get a huge edge at a time when that edge can translate to a massive lead. Imagine a Mongolia that enters Classical Era quite a bit sooner than its neighbors and gets units like Skirmishers. Archers and Spearmen can't stop that and even Horsemen can only stop them with sufficient numbers.

Even if Mongolia doesn't get a massive tech lead, they can become stronger in a number of other ways. They can pull ahead in religion where they can find and enhance or spread rapidly if they get two Religious CS nearby. Cultural CS gives them a pretty big boost to Culture which, if Mongolia haven't expanded much, gives them a massive lead in policies that other civs can't compete with until possibly much later. If Mongolia then goes on a conquering spree, I can't see how they don't maintain their policy lead and also gain a tech lead as well.

Overall, Mongolia, to me, just gets too many yields too quickly at a time when those yields have the most impact. You won't notice those yields in Medieval era but you certainly will in the Ancient Era.

Ancient era?
In my game he's hoarding those yields in late Medieval catapulting him in Renaissance.

 

[Gazebo]

Mongoli does not overperform relative to other civs.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Still think it would be way easier to balance and more in line with G's stated purpose of benign neglect towards CSs if the Mongol's CS mechanic was reworked:

"City States that are afraid do not degrade influence and provide their relevant yield to your Capital."​

• Maritime -
• Mercantile -
• Militaristic -
• Cultured -
• Religious -

So like a Gunship Diplomacy tenet built into your UA. That would give him a more gradual ramp up, instead of the intense catapult potential of the 3.5x heavy tribute mechanic, which can often net you 2 free techs, a Great Prophet, or half a free policy, in addition to a city with all its infrastructure intact (which is a massive savings on hammers, and I feel people are overlooking quite badly here).

 

[amateurgamer88]

Ancient era?
In my game he's hoarding those yields in late Medieval catapulting him in Renaissance.

Well, it does depend on the map. For a Pangaea, it takes time for Mongolia to get to those CS that are further from his capital. During Ancient Era, those closest to him should give him a pretty big boost to get started. I don't think the AI knows how to hoard yields, at least I hope not.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Mongoli does not overperform relative to other civs.

G

This has been my experience as well.

 

[crdvis16]

Mongoli does not overperform relative to other civs.

G

Also my experience since the rework. I think Mongolia is very often a strong civ and isn't likely to peter out like a lot of other warmongers who have a more difficult time utilizing their kit. But at the same time, their kit doesn't really tend to lend itself to winning which is usually most dependent on science/culture leads.

My guess is that Mongolia is often among the strongest civs going into the late game but hardly ever actually wins. Whereas a warmonger like Assyria has a high chance of being at the bottom but if they do manage to be a contender late then they have a pretty good shot at actually winning.

A non warmonger comparable civ is probably China. They often seem to be a strong contender late but they aren't often the civ that is closest to actually winning the game at the end. Korea would be my example for the opposite- they often get eaten and vassalized but if they do manage to make it to the late game as a contender then they have a high chance of actually winning.

 

[Bhawb]

I'm in a game as Mongolia right now, Emperor difficulty, HB Pangea map, just recently adopted my Ideology. I'm contending with Siam right now, and it is a very close competition. They have almost as many cities (12 to my 14), 3ish more techs, and like 3-4 policies ahead. Very early game I settled a total of 4 cities before annexing I think 3 CSs. Took over Maya early on with Skirmishers, then Brazil in Renaissance, both capitulated. I'm hovering around 70% happiness now and I've had all of my cities freeze their growth for a long time. Siam will have to get demolished soon but I'm significantly behind in military since I haven't maxed my supply (~60/100) and don't have gold to upgrade units so I have a couple sad looking Trebuchets.

I think the current Heavy Tribute is pretty much okay. Yes it is a chunk of yields but not incomparable to what I get when I play Aztecs and run around bullying. If you haven't played Mongolia recently I don't think it is obvious, but you only have 2 windows to get CS very easily. Once at the very start before Pledges of Protection, and then about the time you get Swordsman until nearby civs Ally with the CS. I only had enough supply/strong enough units after Walls/Barracks in all 4 cities and full supply with Swordsman, Horseman, Skirmishers, etc to overcome Pledge's +50. At that point I had enough military to just take the CS in a couple of turns anyway. Remember that when you Heavy Tribute you get bonus yields and a strong city, but you lose the bonuses for killing units, exp (esp for Khans), and still have to have the excess Happiness. I barely was able to get 3 CS before my happiness plummeted, and this was with 4UC so I even had a pretty significant boost in happiness compared to normal. You also can't get normal Heavy Tributes. I think it is a pretty fair part of the UA, it is strong, unique, but you have to use it well early on or you basically just lose the ability to get Heavy Tributes.

In games where I faced Mongolia, they can look scary but no more so than any other snowballing warmonger. Mongolia really doesn't win games as Domination in my experience. Their UA helps them secure a strong militaristic-wide start, and Mounted Ranged buffs are great to secure your continent. But then there isn't any bonus to help you get to another continent, and that is where they have stalled in all of my games, they are never able to get a foothold on the new continent. This means they have to transition into Science victory in my experience, since wide Tourism with no Tourism bonuses isn't going to happen, and they feel pretty fair as far as winning Science after playing a lot of aggressive warmongering. But they usually just sit at the top of the scoreboard, often with insanely high scores, and then lose because they have no bonuses to push them to actually win.

 

[Rekk]

Still think it would be way easier to balance and more in line with G's stated purpose of benign neglect towards CSs if the Mongol's CS mechanic was reworked:

"City States that are afraid do not degrade influence and provide their relevant yield to your Capital."​

• Maritime -
• Mercantile -
• Militaristic -
• Cultured -
• Religious -

So like a Gunship Diplomacy tenet built into your UA. That would give him a more gradual ramp up, instead of the intense catapult potential of the 3.5x heavy tribute mechanic, which can often net you 2 free techs, a Great Prophet, or half a free policy, in addition to a city with all its infrastructure intact (which is a massive savings on hammers, and I feel people are overlooking quite badly here).

Benign neglect doesn't mesh with constantly having an army sitting in the CS territory, to make them afraid, does it? Compared to just having a puppet?

 

[crdvis16]

I'm in a game as Mongolia right now, Emperor difficulty, HB Pangea map, just recently adopted my Ideology. I'm contending with Siam right now, and it is a very close competition. They have almost as many cities (12 to my 14), 3ish more techs, and like 3-4 policies ahead. Very early game I settled a total of 4 cities before annexing I think 3 CSs. Took over Maya early on with Skirmishers, then Brazil in Renaissance, both capitulated. I'm hovering around 70% happiness now and I've had all of my cities freeze their growth for a long time. Siam will have to get demolished soon but I'm significantly behind in military since I haven't maxed my supply (~60/100) and don't have gold to upgrade units so I have a couple sad looking Trebuchets.

I think the current Heavy Tribute is pretty much okay. Yes it is a chunk of yields but not incomparable to what I get when I play Aztecs and run around bullying. If you haven't played Mongolia recently I don't think it is obvious, but you only have 2 windows to get CS very easily. Once at the very start before Pledges of Protection, and then about the time you get Swordsman until nearby civs Ally with the CS. I only had enough supply/strong enough units after Walls/Barracks in all 4 cities and full supply with Swordsman, Horseman, Skirmishers, etc to overcome Pledge's +50. At that point I had enough military to just take the CS in a couple of turns anyway. Remember that when you Heavy Tribute you get bonus yields and a strong city, but you lose the bonuses for killing units, exp (esp for Khans), and still have to have the excess Happiness. I barely was able to get 3 CS before my happiness plummeted, and this was with 4UC so I even had a pretty significant boost in happiness compared to normal. You also can't get normal Heavy Tributes. I think it is a pretty fair part of the UA, it is strong, unique, but you have to use it well early on or you basically just lose the ability to get Heavy Tributes.

In games where I faced Mongolia, they can look scary but no more so than any other snowballing warmonger. Mongolia really doesn't win games as Domination in my experience. Their UA helps them secure a strong militaristic-wide start, and Mounted Ranged buffs are great to secure your continent. But then there isn't any bonus to help you get to another continent, and that is where they have stalled in all of my games, they are never able to get a foothold on the new continent. This means they have to transition into Science victory in my experience, since wide Tourism with no Tourism bonuses isn't going to happen, and they feel pretty fair as far as winning Science after playing a lot of aggressive warmongering. But they usually just sit at the top of the scoreboard, often with insanely high scores, and then lose because they have no bonuses to push them to actually win.

My last playthrough with Mongolia (which was right after their re-work) I basically did what you see the AI do with them. I destroyed my continent in record time after eating nearby CSs. I then set my sights on Sweden on another continent as he was my closest competitor. I ate a CS on his continent as a staging ground for my military and shipped them all over. I quickly took a city or two but then stalled- his continent had a bunch of rivers that were killing my mounted ranged unit mobility and the inability to reinforce my military on his continent allowed him to grind me back. Failing at an amphibious invasion just like the real Mongolia invading Japan seemed fitting.

Without the ability to pivot to other victory types and with domination seeming so difficult for the AI it's hard for Mongolia to do much more than be threatening in my opinion.

 

[intelli]

Mongolia might be balanced, but watching them hoover up city states like no tomorrow on a Pangaea map surely isn't fun. A bit like England and their instant spy, basically. No OP but liable to go on the banned list during setup.

 

[crdvis16]

Mongolia might be balanced, but watching them hoover up city states like no tomorrow on a Pangaea map surely isn't fun. A bit like England and their instant spy, basically. No OP but liable to go on the banned list during setup.

There's counter plays to him taking CSs, though. It's probably hard to liberate CSs near the bulk of his empire but any that he annexes that are isolated should be fairly easy to liberate. If he gobbles up 5 or 6 CSs is it really that big of a deal? That can happen during the course of normal warfare in any game. I don't think I've ever had a game ruined by Mongolia, but I've never had a game ruined by England either.

 

[Bhawb]

Mongolia might be balanced, but watching them hoover up city states like no tomorrow on a Pangaea map surely isn't fun. A bit like England and their instant spy, basically. No OP but liable to go on the banned list during setup.

Pledge of Protection + Ally, Mongolia can't annex after that without going to war first.