Mongolian conquests (split from Civ4 Stories thread)

[sophie]

Oh yes they were, at least they were post 7 years war.

edit: 2x xpost.


But they would still have the numbers, and sieging a city, which they were pros at, requires no cavalry, and that was what the bulk of the Mongol army was trained for. So it wasn't erasing their tactical and operational advantages.

I was wrong on the French, who at full mobilization could put up 300,000, according to Szabo, during the 7 Years' War. The British, however, according to Szabo at their greatest mobilization put up an army of 67, 776 men. It also must be noted, however, that in the 18th century, governments had much MUCH larger populations, and were much better at mobilizing the populace than they were in the 13th century.

As for the second part. Given the large number of fortresses in Medieval Germany (and all of Europe, for that matter), and given that the polities in the HRE have a lot of experience fighting in sieges, I don't really think it's going to be so easy for Mongols sans Cavalry to whip through the HRE.

Also, yeah. Woo x-post.

 

[ilduce349]

To many x-posts!

 

[Masada]

Thats to long for me to consider reading...

That's right folks, we're wasting our time on a freaking five year old.

 

[Jabarto]

That's right folks, we're wasting our time on a freaking five year old.

I was waiting to see who would bring this up first. That and the whole "historians who disagree with me aren't historians" thing are why I bailed on this thread.

 

[Dachs]

I said never mind for the same reason on the first page and kept going anyway for almighty postcount.

 

[Karalysia]

So in the desire to maybe learn something the practice of killing or damaging envoys to show displeasure was a well established one yes, but what warranted the almost universally negative reactions to Mongol envoys? It appears that in addition to Kwarzhemanshah, Mongol envoys were also beheaded or otherwise damaged by the Mamluks, Delhi Sultanate, Pagan, Kipchaks, Hungary, the Rus and so forth which as we know often served as a pretext for invasion. So what caused this reaction?

 

[Dachs]

Maybe they were all really ugly.

 

[Karalysia]

I would think the smell would be fairly offensive as well.

 

[Dachs]

Pft, no. They smell worse when they're dead. Duh.

 

[ilduce349]

That's right folks, we're wasting our time on a freaking five year old.

At least I'm 4 years older then you...

I said never mind for the same reason on the first page and kept going anyway for almighty postcount.

You already have 22,000...

So in the desire to maybe learn something the practice of killing or damaging envoys to show displeasure was a well established one yes, but what warranted the almost universally negative reactions to Mongol envoys? It appears that in addition to Kwarzhemanshah, Mongol envoys were also beheaded or otherwise damaged by the Mamluks, Delhi Sultanate, Pagan, Kipchaks, Hungary, the Rus and so forth which as we know often served as a pretext for invasion. So what caused this reaction?

hence the wars with all of them...
Mongolia had a Casus Belli on everyone the declared war on
As for what caused this, Mongolian envoys were different from the rest of the world. They didn't know others customs and traditions and probably, without intending to, insulted the people of the states.

Pft, no. They smell worse when they're dead. Duh.

 

[sophie]

At least I'm 4 years older then you...

If he is, he's a child prodigy.

You already have 22,000...

How do you think he got them?

 

[Ajidica]

Mmmm. Mongols.
How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol Horde got bored?

 

[ilduce349]

 

[Joecoolyo]

However your forgetting a fact, if Ogedei never died, the hordes never would have split, so we would have an adaptable Mongolian empire already controlling most of Asia and now trying to get into Europe, and succeeding before the death of the Khan.

There was trouble in the family even before Ogedei even took the throne (just look up Jochi), what makes you think him staving off death for another 15 years would allow an invasion of Europe? Especially considering the fact that one, Ogedei, unlike his father, wasn't personally involved in these conquests, and two, the family politics at the time heavily leaned toward Chinese adventures?

I can't remember the exact figures but AFAIK it's comparable.

Hmm... so I don't get the claim that somehow the Mongols wouldn't be able tp slug through Europe due to large amount of castles and pop. density er something while they managed to do that in Southern China (albeit after several campaigns and a couple decades worth of fighting)?

 

[ilduce349]

There was trouble in the family even before Ogedei even took the throne (just look up Jochi), what makes you think him staving off death for another 15 years would allow an invasion of Europe? Especially considering the fact that one, Ogedei, unlike his father, wasn't personally involved in these conquests, and two, the family politics at the time heavily leaned toward Chinese adventures?

I know of Jochi well, however he was killed before Ogedie was officially crowned...

Hmm... so I don't get the claim that somehow the Mongols wouldn't be able tp slug through Europe due to large amount of castles and pop. density er something while they managed to do that in Southern China (albeit after several campaigns and a couple decades worth of fighting)?

Heres a fact for you, Nothern China had more walled cities and forts then any other country in the world at the time. It fell in just 13 years...

 

[Dachs]

Hmm... so I don't get the claim that somehow the Mongols wouldn't be able tp slug through Europe due to large amount of castles and pop. density er something while they managed to do that in Southern China (albeit after several campaigns and a couple decades worth of fighting)?

Distance and available resources. Commitment issues. Lack of a security threat. Other, more pressing concerns, related to commitment issues (above). No real indication that they could have done. Should I keep going?

 

[sophie]

Heres a fact for you, Nothern China had more walled cities and forts then any other country in the world at the time. It fell in just 13 years...

So are you going to actually give a source for this one or are you going to just keep pulling numbers out of your ass?

 

[Joecoolyo]

I know of Jochi well, however he was killed before Ogedie was officially crowned...

Doesn't matter, just shows that even under the unifying influence of Genghis, the family could still be rather fractured.

Distance and available resources. Commitment issues. Lack of a security threat. Other, more pressing concerns, related to commitment issues (above). No real indication that they could have done. Should I keep going?

This is disregarding commitment issues and such, I just want to know why Europe was "too dense" for a Mongol conquest, yet China wasn't?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I think we've had enough of this...

Thread closed.