Monuments/Stonehenge: stronger culture strategies now?

[Dutch Canuck]

Hi folks, I have always been annoyed that Monuments/Stonehenge "expired" with Calendar, especially when I needed to make plantations to deal with and issues - but now there's been a serious change to the culture wars in the early game: Monuments/Stonehenge "expire" with Astronomy!

That's a BIG news for everyone interested in pushing their empire's cultural borders during the settling phase. I'm a culture monster so I'm really pleased with this. Note: the Egyptians can construct their UB for a longer period too and actually get their extra priests to work!

Even in a small way all Creative leaders get the benefit of adding that +1 (+2 for old construction) to each founded city for many many turns longer than before!

Thoughts?

 

[Virulent]

I think this change was needed now that the Native Americans and Ethiopia have a monument UB along with Egypt.

I think getting Stonehenge will be a key strategy when playing these civs.

 

[Tristan daCunha]

I am very pleased with this. Granted, having Stonehenge expire with the discovery of Calendar made sense. But as someone who likes having a cultural boost to newly founded cities (without playing a Creative leader), this will be very helpful.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I think that while it's great for me since I almost always build Stonehenge, I really don't think I should be let off that easy either... Now I can have my cake and eat it too by researching Calendar when I want it rather than when I think I absolutely need it and am willing to sacrifice the benefits of Stonehenge. It takes away some of that important decision-making in my opinion.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm quite pleased. I always avoided stonehenge because calendar can be a vital tech if you have a lot of calendar resources around. But now I will target it more often, especially with charismatic leaders for example.

 

[Polycrates]

I think it's an excellent change...gets rid of the whole "hold off on Calendar" dilemma, which I thought was kind of a silly one. The only thing is that it makes Charismatic, arguably the most powerful trait already, even more powerful.
On a similar note, they've somewhat improved the Scientific Method dilemma too, since it now allows forest preserves which add commerce and happiness.

 

[futurehermit]

For me there wasn't a "scientific dilemma" because if you were first to SM you could get physics first and settle the GS to make up for the hit of losing the GL. of course the GS is not giving you gpp, but he makes a nice infusion in your oxford city and by that point in the game 6 gpp is not giving you *that* much anyways.

 

[Antilogic]

I always hated my +1 happiness expiring as a Charismatic leader the moment I wanted to hook up my plantation resources by researching Calendar (and building plantations). Now, that's not a problem.

However, for culture building strategies, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. If you are going for a culture victory, +1 or +2 for it being old is not much of a bonus, and you get that anyway even if it expires. More than likely, your 3 cities for a culture victory are going to be older cities as well, so you would have already built the monuments there, in any case.

The real benefit of pushing it back are the UBs: I don't normally have the ability to run a bunch of specialists in the very beginning of the game when obelisks are first available, so the benefit is wasted until I can start assigning specialists (especially non-scientist specialists). Now, as Egypt, I can use that additional priest specialist ability longer. As Sitting Bull, my longbows and crossbows will have this ability without me crippling my development and avoiding Calendar. As Zara Yaqob, you will accumulate more time with the +25% culture bonus--especially because he is a Creative leader.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, it makes a HUGE difference for the UBs, which I'm actually kinda pumped about.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Louis+Stonehenge+Religion from Great Prophet Points. Lots-o-culture.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

A great change, indeed. It makes me a very happy boy.

 

[Bast]

This makes the Stonehenge a KEY wonder for everyone involved.

 

[mice]

Also the prophet from Stonehenge can now pop a golden age to fuel the axe rush.

As Ramesses you get a boosted axe rush and then border pops in the new cities.

As Zara Yaqob, same deal and 25% culture for the culture win, especially on a land map where you avoid Astronomy completely.

 

[sneaky]

Stonehenge always was a great wonder, now it may even become a bit broken.

 

[Sobsob]

I like the change but can't help feeling stonehenge should have a higher hammer cost.

 

[UncleJJ]

I always hated my +1 happiness expiring as a Charismatic leader the moment I wanted to hook up my plantation resources by researching Calendar (and building plantations). Now, that's not a problem.

However, for culture building strategies, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. If you are going for a culture victory, +1 or +2 for it being old is not much of a bonus, and you get that anyway even if it expires. More than likely, your 3 cities for a culture victory are going to be older cities as well, so you would have already built the monuments there, in any case.

The real benefit of pushing it back are the UBs: I don't normally have the ability to run a bunch of specialists in the very beginning of the game when obelisks are first available, so the benefit is wasted until I can start assigning specialists (especially non-scientist specialists). Now, as Egypt, I can use that additional priest specialist ability longer. As Sitting Bull, my longbows and crossbows will have this ability without me crippling my development and avoiding Calendar. As Zara Yaqob, you will accumulate more time with the +25% culture bonus--especially because he is a Creative leader.

Of course cultural victories are going to consider using one or more of the 3 corporations that can make culture in a city. That is going to be a considerable boost in the right city, with the right % culture modifiers.

I see culture as being a lot more important in border disputes now. I am guessing here, but war could be more costly and difficult with better AI defences, so flipping a city or some valuable tiles (e.g. an extra iron for your corporation) by pumping culture could be a more useful tactic. Also you might want to steal tiles from a vassal or extend your culture into the tundra rather than build another city.

That's all a bit off the topic of Stonehenge and monuments perhaps, but these sort of cultural border battles have a slow timescale and every little helps.

 

[Dutch Canuck]

In ref to sneaky & Sobsob remarks: it would be interesting to find out if Stonehenge itself has been tweaked for balance in BTS. I haven't seen anything yet to say for sure...

 

[MrWhereItsAt]

I thought it was only the culture that expired with Calendar - didn't Obelisks keep their other benefit(s)? If so, is that still the case?

 

[Dutch Canuck]

I should have said previously 'obsolete' instead of "expire", but that is still an imprecise term here...

^I've seen this question raised many times regarding obsolescence - may be the best way to "see" it is to experiment with saved games? Nonetheless I'll offer this:

In the case of monuments, the discovery of Calendar - now it is with the discovery of Astronomy in BTS - prevents one from building any new monuments, but those you have built already will continue to generate culture. Monuments are primarily useful in pushing one's borders out after founding new cities. In BTS the culture push from young cities is a good trick lasting until Astronomy! - by then other cultural buildings + drama should take over task of generating culture in cities built after Astronomy with little trouble of cost. The Egyptians, Ethiopians and Native Americans all have a UB based upon the monument so they can really benefit from the rules change.

In the case of Stonehenge, its obsolescence causes one to loose the faux monuments in your other cities, but the wonder itself will continue to generate culture and GP points in the city in which it is built.

Creative leaders can, of course, "go to town" with this!