Moonraker

[woopdeedoo]

On the note of getting enough money to keep research at 90%, I propose we fill all our Galleons with Jewish missionaries, ship them overseas and gift them to the AI. spread as many religions in our own cities too. Make sure we have all three in each of our cities. That will also bolster our research rate very nicely. Especially from the 2 shrines.

 

[vranasm]

well caste boosts workshops too (something that should not be forgotten).

I will look into the "slavery" issue once in game and think about it. My initial thinking is to press the "tech pedal" with build wealth and stop at factories to whip them.

I would just add to your "bank analysis" that in my experience the amount of turns without 100% slider (or 90% as you put it) will be pretty low until we get all the techs for SS and then it will be irrelevant how much gpt/bpt we produce.
Typically you switch out of wealth to whip factories + coal plants + grocers + supermarket, harbors. A lot of this we already have.

We're looking at ~8 turns on 0% slider, because once your core gets factories+cp's and that is in the case of slavery matter of 4 turns, you switch back the cities to wealth and go back to 100% slider (the same then for grocers and supermarkets).

So you have to judge the so called "opportunity cost" of building the bank which costs 200H. that is something that has to be paid back, OR reduces the cost to 160 hammers (200/1.25), forge can't be included since it boosts wealth hammers and bank hammers.
You should count only the difference gained (aka city has 20 base commerce from tiles+TR's, so the difference is 10 commerce multiplied by the slider - means the bank pays back in 16 turns on 0% slider) and then you have to judge the gold now x gold later.

If you check the save t0-prep x the save Cam left for me you will quickly see that the gpt changed from -6 gpt to something like +30 gpt, sure we can't move the slider 1 notch up yet, but at least we start bank some gold for deficit research.

Shrines should get banks without much debate and markest and grocers. The rest isn't clearcut at all... and since I usually am too lazy to calculate everything, I just don't build the banks ;-).

Btw there was an article somewhere (which I read like 2 years ago) which tried to calculate precisely what benefit the 50% gold multiplier effectively has and the conclusion was that it reduces the city maintenance by 1/3... we already plan to abandon CH's due to the SP plan and they have 50% reduction...

 

[vranasm]

On the note of getting enough money to keep research at 90%, I propose we fill all our Galleons with Jewish missionaries, ship them overseas and gift them to the AI. spread as many religions in our own cities too. Make sure we have all three in each of our cities. That will also bolster our research rate very nicely. Especially from the 2 shrines.

good suggestion with gifting... didn't came to mind.

There is only 1 complication... we can't have more then 3 mishes and the path is long...other then that we surely can throw some mishes on other continent

If we were in BtS we could even switch Cathy then into jews through spy missions ;-)

 

[woopdeedoo]

good suggestion with gifting... didn't came to mind.

There is only 1 complication... we can't have more then 3 mishes and the path is long...other then that we surely can throw some mishes on other continent

If we were in BtS we could even switch Cathy then into jews through spy missions ;-)

Well, we can have 3 Jewish, 3 Hindu and 3 Christian How many people fit in a Galleon again? Also, can't the Frigates/Caravels carry missionaries? Don't they move 1 square more (or am I totally )?

 

[FiveRings]

I just can't commit three-four hours to do another turnset until around the 9th of December but will follow the game when I can.

I am not sure we'll finish the game by that date. BTW, I'll be using some leave during the last two weeks of December, so I'll either have A LOT of time to play, or I won't have access to the game, only to the forum.

I'm sure you've 'got' this, but just to be 'crystal'; vranasm is championing a position where through 'Build Wealth' the commerce slider will be somewhere around 90% - 10%, as will be almost entirely derived from rather than (merged Prophets and Shrine income being exceptions). Because the -slider is empire-wide rather than city-specific, we should be already able to run break-even at around 90% and 10% with enough 'Build Wealth', and therefore at 10% the value of Banks in cities other than Prague (Prophets), Shanghai (Shrine), and York (Shrine), (and Munich if we use a Prophet on the Christian Shrine) is severely diminished. Nonetheless there will be times when core cities won't be using 'Build Wealth', and the slider may drop to 'say' 50% and 50% when the Banks can be of some use. Apologies if this was already clear to you (as I think it was), but no harm I guess in just clarifying it.

I really knew the mechanics but couldn't make the necessary jump to conclusions. Getting senile, I guess. Or the standard dependence on practice to get a real understanding of the process.

Gifting a junk city to Catherine was proposed largely to appease her to the point of her being willing to sign a defensive pact, but that motivation is now moot. Whether the roster wants to pursue it for other reasons is up to you.[/indent]

Yeah, I remember well your suggestion. I was looking at this only as a way of getting her weened away from whomever (Roose?!) was having the gpt inflow from Buddhism (?!) shrine and redirecting some of it to us. The city was meant to seduce her (yes, it might be us, not Cath seducing us with that hairtail shake!) to switch religion...I forgot that this is not needed: gpt will come from her - and the others' - cities anyway but then she might have the civic that prevents non-state religions from spreading, and this one then really needs to be changed...somehow...
On a second thought, new missionaries, cities, etc., is sure not to be worth the hammers invested.

 

[Cam_H]

well caste boosts workshops too (something that should not be forgotten).

Yeah ... I'd hate to forget that it works differently in Warlords than BtS!

________

Just stating the obvious, but we haven't shrined The Church of the Nativity (for Munich) at this point, so spreading Christianity isn't doing us a lot of immediate good (other than the opportunity for +1 from a Christian Temple). If we pop a Prophet, then I'd be happy to use it for the Shrine.

 

[vranasm]

Yeah ... I'd hate to forget that it works differently in Warlords than BtS!

________

Just stating the obvious, but we haven't shrined The Church of the Nativity (for Munich) at this point, so spreading Christianity isn't doing us a lot of immediate good (other than the opportunity for +1 from a Christian Temple). If we pop a Prophet, then I'd be happy to use it for the Shrine.

grrrr.... ok that I didn't knew...

why we don't play BtS anyway? Forget your hate against BtS FR and next game do BtS!

 

[vranasm]

The round is played

After thinking about slavery/caste, I decided to switch into slavery, we could whip some mishes in cities that would work coast otherwise and some infra should come up quicker

Spoiler :

I could even slave some banks already ;-)

Then I looked at the resource trades and honestly got confused how we want to achieve the 2nd gems so I didn't touch better anything. Then checked first page and realized that is non-issue now ;-)

And switched into teching physics.

After the end of turn we jumped up to 80% slider with +3gpt ;-) nice nice.

Spoiler :

We popped yet another Great Artist... I sleep him

Spoiler :

T222 we get Physics

Spoiler :

And great scientist which I use to finish Biology

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

then it's all for communism... 3T ;-)

T225 we get Communism

Spoiler :

Switch into SP!

Spoiler :

next tech is RP

Spoiler :

as you can see we are 100% slider +16 gpt, next city should start on research directly

bpt is solid 1437

Spoiler :

btw since the cities will start to grow etc, there surely will be some readjustments of building wealth

next turn RP

Spoiler :

nice nice we even jumped to +91 gpt... surely time for switching some wealth into research ;-)

next tech is Steam power

wanted to burn a bit the banked gold

Spoiler :

1647 bpt, not bad.

We could use more observatories, but I think I would really delay it after factories... btw factories should help us a lot too.

Cathy runs theo so I gave her the Juda mish...so let's see if she uses it!

Hmm didn't check properly (not used to UI without red fists) but as it seems Cathy is plotting against someone...

Spoiler :

She is +5with us, -2 with roos... so I think she goes after him

T229 Steam Power comes

Spoiler :

Bad news is that Cathy didn't use the hindu mish :-(

Cathy and Roos offer Constitution for trade, but for us it's actually 1T research...

Roos has rifling...which isn't that welcome news.

Good news is we have 2 sources of coal ;-)

T230 Constitution comes and I think it's time for me to stop after playing 13 turns (too much?).

Spoiler :

Time for final review of cities and we can discuss next tech path ;-)

While reviewing I realize some cities have actually too much food... La Chiffre could use more workshops instead of farms for example

And I think we should switch into caste... we have a lot of population which almost isn't placable

Or maybe we could sit it out since factories could come in 5T anyway. 1T for corps, AL should be 4T... it's borderline ;-)

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the turnset. A very quick look;

Yay! International trade routes!

Yay! We can run at 100%!

Still can re-sign a defensive pact with Catherine, but Roosevelt does look like the target. She's also got 9/turn if there was interest there.

Tech'-wise, I'm open as to whether Plastics (Three Gorges) or Computers (Laboratories) is the way to go after Assembly Line.

Any interest in The Kremlin? Maybe it's a post-Factory/Coal Plant build?

No firm opinion on civics, although possibly with hindsight a swap into Free Religion a while back might have worked better than sticking with Organised Religion given that there was hardly any infrastructure being built, but it's no biggie.

We have practically no defense in the south. I'd propose that we move a third of our Cav's to somewhere like Venice, and a third to somewhere like Munich. I acknowledge that Russia's the only one in WHEOOHRN mode, but sometimes the AI doesn't give a lot of warning.

 

[vranasm]

one remark about Versailles we have a lot of hammers in steel jaw and another bunch of in Monte carlo (I think at both places its matter of 4 turns to finish, so have there like 80% hammers)
it would be good to choose another site and invest some more.

I don't know much about SS in Warlords, but generally it is good to check for Aluminium (Industrialism) and set up Laboratories before going Rocketry for Apollo.

There should be a lot of whipping in FR's turnset and I think we could hold on the OR for whipping factories, coal plants, grocers (where needed), observatories and laboratories.

We still have to decide IW city btw and should slot in somewhere steel and railroads... should be some nice inland production city... Steel jaw looked nice from what I remember, but it could be checked with cities screen and sorting by hammers and building in most productive.

I would just emphasize the need of finishing worker improvements at La Chiffre, because that city is in really bad condition with too many farms and not enough hammers.
Workshops are now better then cottages, hamlets and probably villages, so I would at places finish changing cottages, hamlets into workshops.

I tried to spam a bit the windmills.

I see the team is a lot worried by sneak attack from an AI. I wasn't, but I have no objection in changing troops. I switched Monte Carlo back into cavalry last turn (from banking on Versailles) and it can pump cavalry each 2 turns.

if we are so afraid of AI's, quick detour for Rifling before Corps (it would probably be 1T tech max 2T) would be very wise then...

 

[vranasm]

btw Cam I am not big on Three gorges, they come too late, there was some discussion about this and I saw that people prefer to just spam coal plants right after factories and it is reasonably good approach.

The 3GD then can override the coal plants, but i would not really bother.

There are some important techs for us still as I mentioned... AL, Steel, RR, Ind, Electricity, computers (for laboratories... in bts it's superconductors?), rocketry itself.

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

Thanks for the response. I wouldn't say that I'm especially worried about an AI attack, but it's one of the few things that could disrupt our plans (an 'annoyed' Tokugawa, however backward, could still be a 'thorn in the side' ... I'm away from my Civ computer so can't recall if he's got Astronomy yet, but if so, then I'd be a little wary). I'd at least use the Industrial Age units we have on hand, and spread them around a bit. Personally I'd still churn out Cavalry from Monte Carlo, but I'm fine if others on the roster resist the idea.

I thought Roosevelt has already built Versailles during your turnset? (Again - away from my Civ computer).

'Yes' - Biology has really turned up the output in Le Chiffre. It was in pretty good balance prior to Biology. I'm fine with the Workshop replacement suggestion.

I'm a bit surprised that you're not 'all over' Three Gorges Dam. It's expensive and late, but not so much that in my view it's not worth it. I do agree though with getting up Coal Plants in core production sites nonetheless and letting Three Gorges usurp them when it's done.

I'll leave the call on Rifling up to the roster. I'd probably hold off until after Industrialism unless Tokugawa went WHEOOHRN in the meantime, but pre-Corporation will allow us to retain our extra in coastals for a turn or two longer.

 

[vranasm]

well coal plant is 50% hammer boost, it's cheaper then factory (which is 25% hammer boost). It comes at the same tech as factory.
It costs a bit on health, but that is where grocers, biology farms kick in.

So it is to me logical that I would advocate that every factory city should get coal plant right after it. That way we get in every city 100% hammers multiplier and btw I am the meaning that every city should get factory+CP even town cities, since they have their own nice hammers too.

With slavery it is usually matter of 4 turns to get it in 80% of your cities.

3GD is just fricking damn far away, needs its own hammers investment and not sure if it will place hydro plants in every city (I vaguely remember river being the condition)

I didn't saw Versailles built up to T11 where I switched monte carlo into something else, but we didn't get any fail gold from what I remember now... I start to be almost worried if we shouldn't finish it in some 3rd city ourselfs lol

I will leave rifles + defense situation up to FR and woops... I will just state that I am not that much worried, we could make of our galleons some sentry net though... we're blindsided now, if we see galleons comming 3 turns before landing then it will be easier to counteract.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Report looks good. It looks to me like this game is essentially done and dusted Very impressive stuff. Gonna have a look at the save and comment soon.

 

[FiveRings]

Very impressive progress, indeed; thank you, V!

I'll be able to look at the save this evening, and hope to come up with a PPP.

I think that V's reasoning behind getting coal plants vs The 3G is very convincing. I do all the time go for the latter trying to save investment, so I'll need to check my own calculations...if I have done any...

 

[vranasm]

ok I thought I will find the thread where TMIT argued against 3GD and promoted CP's easier, but I didn't.

This what I found the quickiest http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=413045&highlight=Gorges+Dam
and this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10337435&postcount=63

not much math, just vague arguing about the timeline issue of 3GD... but from some respectable people ;-)

 

[Cam_H]

I'm not sure where to start ...

Three Gorges Dam provides power to all cities on the continent. It's the definition as far as I can see. It admittedly can only be built in select cities however.

A_Hamster in one of the linked threads said that the from a Coal Plant remains even if it also has a Hydro ... from my recollection that's not the case and I would dismiss the claim until proved otherwise. Maybe someone wants to Worldbuilder a city and determine if A_Hamster's claim is misleading and unhelpful (aka bullsh!t) or not.

Finally "Three Gorges comes so late, even in a space race game that by the time you build it the game is pretty much over ... If I can build it, I do" Ataxerxes says that if he/she/it can build the Wonder, they do, so why is this at all an argument for us not taking a shot at it?

 

[woopdeedoo]

Finally "Three Gorges comes so late, even in a space race game that by the time you build it the game is pretty much over ... If I can build it, I do" Ataxerxes says that if he/she/it can build the Wonder, they do, so why is this at all an argument for us not taking a shot at it?

As far as I can tell, we are shooting ahead now. The free power in all cities continent wide justifies the hammers invested in the Wonder. Even if we don't get it, the fail will be nothing to sneeze at. I would definitely at least try...

[EDIT] And hiring a few engineers in Berlin could mean insta3GD if we manage to squeeze out a GE.[/EDIT]

 

[vranasm]

well the difference here is that I want the coal plants paired with factories asap and don't steam directly for plastics, instead take other more beneficial techs before.

I would have to check exactly where plastics sits, but I think it's mostly on path towards fusion?

OK if the argument is "we will build 3GD eventually when we get plastics, while we still build CP's in our factory cities, which we mean every" I have no objection

we can surely throw some hammers towards 3GD when we're there. But I want to get first other techs which I see more important... steel, RR, rocketry, ind everything has imo precedence.

I remember that the coal plant unhealthy goes away, but surely shouldn't be tough to check. I think I run some game not so far ago with 3GD. Or was it hydro plant?

 

[woopdeedoo]

You have a good point, v. I checked and Plastics is RIIIGHT at the very end of the tech tree. On another note, speaking of WoW's, SoL could be really awesome for us. Shooting for Democracy would be quick and we would have a decent head start. Added to that, I don't think Roosy has copper as he was asking for it in trade previously.