Moonraker

[Cam_H]

Steel, Railroad, and Industrialism are pre-requisites for Plastics anyway - so it's not an 'either / or' issue.

Plastics is at a point where it can be your second last technology (before Robotics) or it can come before literally over a dozen other technologies depending upon how we prioritise the tech's.

My general view is that if we go down this Plastics path, then we should really get going with it:

If every city was to build a Coal Plant, that's 4,800 (excl. multipliers)
Cost of the Three Gorges Dam is 1750 (excl. multipliers) which provides less than Coal Plants.​

Plastics is a required technology (for Robotics and Docking Bay), and will also give a research discount on other required technologies in; Fibre Optics and Ecology.

If we choose not to prioritise Plastics, then it's hard to mount a case for The Three Gorges Dam.

I also acknowledge that even if we do prioritise this Wonder, we will be building some Coal Plants anyway - but maybe not 3050 worth (excl. multipliers).

It's up to the roster to decide - but I hope the decision is thought through.

 

[vranasm]

ok i was thinking how to try to evaluate this and come with this math.

1) I calculated CURRENT base production we have in cities (it is a bit misleading since some of cities have big hammers potential, but need to grow into the hammers, otoh we will whip factories and eventually CP's from tiles which could be hammer tiles or food tiles (coast) so it will be tough to judge how the base production changes)

it is 486 base hammers, that means that coal plants bring 243 hammers

2) I need to calculate the beakers cost for straight going of Plastics right after AL.

it's 43204 beakers needed, but it is not easy as that because number of prereqs changes the beakers we invest into the tech.
I will make second estimate with 30% average prereqs boost and the result is 33233 beakers

3) then I have to state how many beakers we will produce right after whipping factories.

For that I will use our current bpt and do some estimate on that.
our current rate is 1685 beakers, so I will guesstimate that in the next turns we will have (after factories) around 1500 sustain beakers (we will first drop due to whips and then surely surpass the beakers)

4)

some easy calculations:

B/BPT = 22T * 243 hammers = 5383 hammers gained by whipping coal plants right away.

So in theory we should have the coal plants paid back at the time we REACH plastics.

But a lot of this is "guesstimate" and a lot of things can be not true. The most solid are base hammers (where margin of error is around 30 hammers missed in 2-3 cities with potential all very close to potential - La chiffre gaining workshops, that new jungle city near Munich growing into GH's)


beakers (unmodified) are solid, the prereqs are tricky.

Sustain bpt is questionable the most of course ;-)

 

[Cam_H]

To rephrase the way I see it, our choice after Assembly Line is to go for the next two 'big ticket' items in my mind being; Laboratories or The Three Gorges Dam. However ...

woopdeedoo has raised the question of Democracy, which has value not only for The Statue of Liberty (which would be helpful but not crucial) but also for Emancipation (the absence of which might slow us down a little later on). I'm fine with the proposal to pursue Democracy if the roster wants, and I think that it warrants consideration.

Plastics has a ton of useful prerequisite technologies; Steel, Railroad, Combustion, Electricity, and Industrialism. I was a bit disappointed to read; "I checked and Plastics is RIIIGHT at the very end of the tech tree" ... Industrialism and Combustion? Really? These are the same prerequisites required to build Tanks.

As far as I can see (again) - it is a required technology for us (prerequisite to build the Docking Bay) so we have to get it some time. The prerequisites it requires are very useful technologies in their own right (I think that this was acknowledged in #359). It will also give us a small research discount on other required technologies. In short, there's a lot of impetus already for us to research Plastics quickly.

vranasm has done some interesting calculations. The fact that we can run at 100% and still make to burn on Universal Suffrage rush buying rather than whipping once again adds a layer of complexity (throw in The Kremlin option here too). There will be turns lost in not 'building wealth' if we use a minimum of two turns on Coal Plants in each affected city, and there will be a cost of lost citizens from whipping (esp. after factories presumably have also just been whipped) if we use the whip as the tool to hurry their construction. Also there's an increase in from Coal Plants which may necessitate aqueducts or something like that, although I don't think that healthiness is a big problem. I must say that there is a lot of 'food for thought' there.

I would be supportive of us building a minimum of something like six Coal Plants anyway in core production sites (incl. 3GD earmarked city), just for their value toward 'Build Wealth' as we work our way to Plastics.

woopdeedoo has noted that Berlin could possibly pop a Great Engineer and use it toward this Wonder, which throws yet another layer of complications into the mix - would it be better to use the hypothetical Great Engineer on a Golden Age? Merge into our Ironworks city? Save for the Space Elevator in concert with Fusion's free Great Engineer? etc.

32-34 cities getting instant power at a fraction of the cost of 32-34 costly, slow, and dirty Coal Plants seems very appealing to me - better yet if we have a spare Great Engineer that we're prepared to burn on the 3GD. A key question therefore is about timing, which I suggest can be largely alleviated by using Coal Plants in a few select high- cities in the interim.

As I say - it's up to the roster to work out, but I hope that it's done with accurate and considered information. If you go with Coal Plants across the board and by-pass the 3GD, that's fine by me provided that the roster has assessed the situation judiciously.

 

[vranasm]

well I know there is a lot of "ifs" in my calculations, but I just couldn't find any other way how to try at least estimate what will happen without actually testing it with the live save...

I am not sure if you are aware of it, but while i was going through our cities I saw that we have around 10 cities with over 20 base hammers and the rest is not that far off 10 or in the range of 10-20 hammers. That means that in most of our cities the coal plant should be paid back in matter of 10 turns and less, if we look at it from individual cities point of view.
That is pretty good ROI imo.

I don't really think anyone has doubts about teching Plastics, it's just matter of timing... We could get some things off-path before Plastics, while other things we need are on path towards Plastics.

If we abandon the CP+factory in most cities idea, we surely should aim directly for Plastics.

I think both of us laid the case and it's up to woop and FR to make out of this mess something ;-).

To me it would be actually interesting to see both paths in action. My path and yours path, since this late in the game most people on S&T forums just operate on the basis of experience and thoughts and not that much on precise math, since how the heck you want even calculate this in reasonable timeframe?

 

[woopdeedoo]

I was a bit disappointed to read; "I checked and Plastics is RIIIGHT at the very end of the tech tree" ... Industrialism and Combustion? Really? These are the same prerequisites required to build Tanks.

I realised later that you can skip a ton of other tech to get it

 

[FiveRings]

Well, first of all, sorry for the long silence and - as you'd see below - the small output to partially offset the time lost.

I tried to figure out something about the tech path, and realized this is not up to my understanding of the game right now. Both paths to get the prerequisites for the spaceship look almost equal in investment needed. Key techs are Radar, Electricity and Computers, next one - Steel, next one - Refrigerator (by # of incidences on the path to ALL spaceship comonents' building.) The choice where to go seems also to depend a lot on availability of Aluminium and the possibility to build the Space Elevator.

So, the bottomline looks like: it's too early to make grand judgments which tech path to go.

Calculation of C&B re 3G vs CPs seems also very much based on shaky assumptions. I guess the bottomline here was very well externalised by Cam: let's go CPs where there's a lot of hammer production, but be careful not to overextend keeping in mind the possibility of a big RoI into the 3G.

I have decided that it is essential to hop on where we stand now, and that is: we are temporarely in Slavery but intend to go into SP. We go where we can make most of Slavery, and this is AL and Ind vs Steel (which, actually, is not so much about whipping, as about Aluminium vs IW). I feel the latter overweighs. So, I intend to go: AL>Steel>Industrialism. That goes beyond 10 turns at 100% current research.

I think the info we get on where the WHEOHRN of Cath points to, and whether we have AL or not, will let us make a more reasonable decision on where we go next.

Productionwise, I played with V's current city management and to my utter surprise - as I thought it is quite questionable to have wealth in Prague, Shanghai and Guangzhou, while having Research in Zuerich, Killer, and Frankfurt - I came to a lower overall pbt+gpt total. So, I'll leave it the way it is, going, as mentioned above, into CPs where hammers are high.

Workers: Wokshops and windmills where appropriate, as pointed out already by both V and - at least re the former - by Cam. I'll also try to connect the coal mines to the road network, where needed.

I'd rather place the IW in a city with high # of hammers, but also with some additional benefits related to increased output, so I'd think first and foremost about Berlin (NE).

I'd relocate some units to get the Coastguard-Recon-Safety issues addressed as suggested by Cam.

I'll change over to OR (for the 25% in building) ASAP, and will keep the Slavery as the finish of the IW will be beyond my TS, I guess.

That's it in a nutshell. I'll look into your comments and suggestions and will try to play tomorrow evening, if you haven't put too much of my "broadly outlined" PPP into question.

 

[vranasm]

I am a bit confused by some things you state... especially I thought we are already in Slavery + OR.

I would probably go computers (laboratories) before ind if it is available and most importantely I would like to get Electricity "soon". Steel is good. Not so sure with Ind since we don't need to see aluminium yet.

edit:
interesting you didn't get better gpt+bpt then me with the MM since I didn't gave it much thought...

 

[FiveRings]

I am a bit confused by some things you state... especially I thought we are already in Slavery + OR.

I would probably go computers (laboratories) before ind if it is available and most importantely I would like to get Electricity "soon". Steel is good. Not so sure with Ind since we don't need to see aluminium yet.

edit:
interesting you didn't get better gpt+bpt then me with the MM since I didn't gave it much thought...

Well, I was under the impression that we are under FR, not under OR, can't check now, but maybe I have mixed it up. As for Slavery, I don't think I mentioned switching to it. As a matter of fact, I am playing for the first time in a game where both whipping and buying are available, so did notice the double option.

I understand that we don't need AL right now, but due to its importance for the spaceship building and our restricted means to get to a source of it - almost exclusively thru trade as we are on the brink of a domination defeat - I thought this info would help a lot for the long-range planning. I was not very impressed from what we get from Electricity but will look into it again.

Actually, after I did the MM changes, I got to a positive gpt income of about 45, however, the speed of bulbing was lower by something like 25%, so I decided that it might be better to have the higher research rate till the depletion of our cash.

But yes, the outcome of the exercise somewhat puzzled me, as I thought switching to research where we have the OU and most research facilities would change the situation to the better...

I also think I have mixed up which is our wonder-building town, I somehow related this to the NE (I am usually building wonders where I have the fastest rate of GPs birth, which should not necessarily be the case...) I can't remember whether we have decided on where we will be building wonders. If we haven't, and the team prefers to have the IW in a high-hammer city, I'll just pick the one with the highest number checking whether we might have some close candidates for fast increase in the hammer-production, too.

 

[vranasm]

since we are already at 100% slider there is not much benefit to prioritize building wealth with big surplus. I went to the -22 gpt mark because with the gold banked it is around 10 turns of teching. we could afford probably going a bit deeper, because after Assembly Line we will turn the slider off (to 0%)

I hope the "AL" means aluminium and not Assembly Line (which is the more traditional use of AL). I see what you want to say, but don't forget we have WHOLE continent for ourselfs...I would be seriously disappointed if we wouldn't get ANY aluminium at our continent. I almost can't imagine that, but surely can happen.

OU has no impact on building research. That's what we discussed with Cam some pages ago, where I wasn't sure.
Building research/wealth gets hammers multipliers not science/gold multipliers (difference between Vanilla and later datadiscs)

I would probably build the IW in that plains heavy city south of our city 2 (is it Steel something?), it has enough food for all those workshops and has something like 30+ base hammers from what I remember.

 

[FiveRings]

Yes, in this particular case I am speaking about Alu. But you are right that I use the abbreviation for Assembly Line, too, and I should use different abbreviations. I guess you have already had cases where there hasn't been Alu on a whole continent. I sure have.

I need to check the OU effect where building research. I think the descriprion of it says that it increases research, and I would assume that this applies to research built, but can't be sure about it.

I think you are referring to the Steel Jaws as a prospective IW site. I'll check how it stands on the list.

Why should we get to 0% after AssLine? We should be able to whip the factories and don't seem to need the gold to purchase them, after all, the factories are too expensive to buy, and that's why, it seemed to me, we have switched to Slavery.

 

[vranasm]

I bet once you go out of build wealths you will realize you need to go 0...

or maybe there should be question from me... do we plan to build factories everywhere? because I for sure am planning such thing or was.

 

[FiveRings]

I also like to build factories, but building them in all cities seems a bit over the edge. Citie with lower hammer output, say, below 10, won't get a lot from such a heavy investment.

 

[FiveRings]

I've made 9 turns, and think it might be better to end my turn here for several reasons:
1. I have slated CPs everywhere where factories were built, as suggested by V, and think that his calculations, the acceleration of research and wealth added, the OF from factories and all cities close to cap (hence, not that big impact of the -2 health), might be good grounds to go that way. I'd still offer the situation for review and discussion.
2. Toku turned to annoyed towards us, and has studied some very unpleasant things. We might need to pay more attention to the military aspect in the stead of CPs or anything else.
3. We are on the brink of getting electricity ( 1 turn away) and - again with Toku in mind - we might ponder a bit on where to go.
4. We can get Rifles and a nice $410 from Roose for Lib and MT, and if we throw in Physica, or even something cheaper (maybe) we can get him tackle Toku. Cath has less money, so the deal with her (Rifle for MT+Lib seems worse, but there might be some higher strategic considerations that I am not aware of. BTW, Roose's worst enemy is Cath, as he told us this same turn. Cath, on her part, has sent a sword and a settler onto our continent. It should be noted that a galleon of toku has sneaked to our Southeast, although I can't see it right now.

Now, the TS in a nutshell:
1605 (t1)
Corp>AL
London: Observ>Uni
$685+$452 fail money for Versailles
We are at #$37 gpt at 100%
Le Chifre: lib switched to Hindu Miss
9gpt from Cath for risce
Deliberated over getting $200 from Toku for Divine Right, decided to wait and see whether there might be more to come: wrong. Next turn his pocket was empty.
Increased research a bit and got down to +4gpt (should have stayed where I was, though)
Remembered that Kremlin lowers costs of whipping and purchasing by 33%, wondered why we haven't started it. MM-ed and figured out that Beijing will build it in 7 turns, so with a bit of delay in AL - getting to Steel inbetween, it could come handy for the factory whips. And it did.
Cavs and galleons set forth.

1610 (t2)
Le Chif: Miss>Miss
MCarlo: Cav siwtched to lib (to provide better slots for citizens)
Jewish Miss gifted to Roose (he didn't deserve it, and made no use of it.)

1615 (t3)
Le Chif:Miss> Miss
Orlov LH>forge
Zorin whips forge
Roose has Steel

1620 (t4)
9gpt for rice from Toku
MC: lib>observ
Le Chif: Miss>Miss
Zorin: Forge>LH
Switch to Steel 1 turn before AL researched

1625 (t5)
Le Chif:Miss>Miss
GrSc: decide that there is some good chances to get an Engineer the next 19 turns from Berlin (somewhat longer would take Hamburg), and decide to keep him, at least till the end of my TS.
Sanchez whips forge

1630 (t6)
Steel>AL
Le Chiff: Miss>Miss
Sanchez: forge>lib
Beijing whips Kremlin
Warwick whips forge

1635 (t7)
AL>Electricity
Mass switch to factories
Cath turns cautious towards us
Tku galleon seen to our SE

1640 (t8)
whips of factories almost everywhere

1645 (t9)
Almost everywhere factory builds replaced by CPs
Berlin and Hamburg are at max Engineer-specialists (at the cost of a bit slower growth)
Cath has rifle
Deals for Rifle can be done with both Roose and Cath, as noted above
Toku annoyed.

Save is below.

 

[vranasm]

looks really good.

couple of cities would need grocer after the CP, but should be quick builds for 1-2 turns.

I would still slave some of those CP's in some cities, the ones which work coast for example.

Dunno if we realize this, but factories offer 2 more engineer slots so even city like Cologne can have 6 hammers from tiles, 3x eng for another 6 hammers, together 12 base hammers and the coal plant should be paid back in 13 turns, factory a bit slower probably.

not sure why you cut off the farm at Kananga, it's dry now and it's a mistake. the workshop 1NW should be farm, the city can have 3 farms.

As for the war situation... Toku isn't in "WHEOORN" so we have still some time. Detour for rifling isn't bad, we could pump some infantry then, but I would leave this after Electricity.

Not sure why you went for Steel before AL since it just basically delayed the factories by 2 turns.

I still see Steel jaw as best candidate for IW and should be started after the CP.

I would probably offer going Refrigeration after Electricity and Rifling to get the supermarkets. With 150H cost they are another very cheap building and we should have the 4 resources for another good number of health.

edit:

can it be that the Kananga farm is my fault? I think it can... anyway we need to draw fresh water there and there is still free tiles for farming (plains riverside 3W and then the grassland 1NE from the plains and then override that workshop)

 

[FiveRings]

The delay in getting AL thru inserting Steel was in order to get the Kremlin and the 1/3 reduction in whipping cost before starting to whip the factories. Could be done by just not building them anyway. The idea was to start building the iW immediately after getting Steel and whipping it before the factory and the CP. The early 100% increase in hammers would have overweighed. Regrettably I forgot about this idea of mine under the pressure of the uncertainty whether all this will work out or not, didn't start the IW and later slated a factory and whipped it. I think it might be better to substitute the CP with an IW in the city where we plan to build the latter.

The disconnection of the farm is most probably my mistake: I didn't realize that despite Biology chain irrigation has to be kept intact. Steel Jaw is OK as a site for the IW but it seems that Berlin has the biggest hammer production and a couple of other cities are close (Berlin has already been whipped twice for the Kremlin and the factory so a calm steady building of the IW in the stead of the CP might not be such a bad idea.)

 

[vranasm]

maybe I am mistaken, but right now in the save biggest hammers has Le Chiffre followed by steel jaw and they finish their coal plants in matter of 2 turns.
and even form the look the Berlin didn't look that promising like the mighty workshops cities of Le Chiffre and Steel jaw.

Getting kremlin was good, I would say it was worth to wait 2 turns before whips. We still have some whips before us, but SS parts can't be whipped (I think).

 

[Cam_H]

Took a brief look, and agree, all looking good (irrigation chains and a few tiny issues aside). Well done.

I'd be happy to propose a Computers bee-line for Laboratories.

We didn't resolve if Democracy was a worthy pursuit or not ... with Roosevelt now having the tech' I guess that The Statue of Liberty would be a bit of a gamble for us if there was any interest.

Once the Coal Plants are finished, there could be a case for Free Religion for a little while - depends upon what we want to do about National Wonders (Wall Street, Ironworks) and whether +25% for a few cities beats +10% for the empire.

 

[vranasm]

SoL is very expensive wonder (just saying) and without rep with questionable return.

I am not hot on it. I think we need other things. computers as you said, supermarkets (refrigeration) - not sure if there is overlap.
Rocketry, Industrialism and then directly for fusion for engines. I would go casings as last since with this many hammer cities the bottleneck will be engines and not casings.

There will be some rounds of builds of grocers, supermarkets, observatories and laboratories, but not against going 10% science for awhile...we're spiritual anyway ;-)

too bad caste doesn't make better workshops :-(

 

[Cam_H]

I agree that the Statue of Liberty without Representation is 'icing', but with 32-34 cities, that's a fair number of free specialists nonetheless. woopdeedoo noted that Roosevelt doesn't have Copper, so we're at a relative production advantage. As also noted; nice fail gold if we don't complete it (whether it's wanted or not). The other aspect that springs to mind is unhappiness due to lack of Emancipation that's likely to kick in at some point. I'm not especially pushing for Democracy, but I'd be happy to entertain the idea. If we want a shot at The Statue of Liberty, I'd make a move toward it pretty soon. Otherwise we can ignore it until Emancipation unhappiness becomes an issue I'd suggest.

On the roster;

woopdeedoo <<< Up
vranasm <<< On deck
FiveRings
Cam (skip until 9th December)​

 

[woopdeedoo]

Well, this is a got it. Will have a look at the save tonight and comment later...