I'd rather go for the computers / refrigerators first, than emancipation, hoping at least that it might be bought later when needed. But an investment in the SoL as the incarnation of fail money - pun is not intended - of course! - is quite seductive. So, go get it! The side benefits of less reds are not to be underestimated, too. This time the pun is intended - of course!
Moonraker
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
vranasm
Deity
when we're at it...did someone got the fail gold from Versailles? I can't remember if we got it or not...
woopdeedoo
King
Apologies for the delay in posting PPP. Will do so in the next few hours. My gut feel is that quickly grabbing Democracy and shooting (legitimately) for SoL and then going for Plastics for 3GD (to be built by similarly timed GE from Berlin) could do us well. As far as I know, this debate has not been settled and I am in favor of it, esp if we can get it with a GE. If we want to wait until the GE is closer to "birth", before shooting for Plastics, I guess that is fine too...
I tend to favour the Three Gorges Dam too, but right now the way that the game was left by FiveRings, it's poised to go down that Coal Plants 'across the board' approach - which is fine if that's the agreed policy (i.e. one turn of natural build, whips, and then build wealth or some 
improvement in cities with chronic 
). The Three Gorges Dam would help alleviate some of the of Coal Plants, but we've got Aqueducts, Grocers, and Harbors to assist with all that (then there's also Public Transport, Hospitals, Supermarkets, and Genetics as later options). As I say, I'm still a fan of The Three Gorges Dam, but its value is seriously nerfed if we put Coal Plants up pretty well everywhere.
I am fine to go for The Statue of Liberty if you want - agreed that outside of Representation it's only 'so' useful, but with the number of cities on our landmass I can see the attraction in taking a shot at it nonetheless.
As per earlier, I'd prioritise Computers (Laboratories), because the sooner we get the +25%
in our big cities, the better for just about everything else.
improvement in cities with chronic ). The Three Gorges Dam would help alleviate some of the of Coal Plants, but we've got Aqueducts, Grocers, and Harbors to assist with all that (then there's also Public Transport, Hospitals, Supermarkets, and Genetics as later options). As I say, I'm still a fan of The Three Gorges Dam, but its value is seriously nerfed if we put Coal Plants up pretty well everywhere.I am fine to go for The Statue of Liberty if you want - agreed that outside of Representation it's only 'so' useful, but with the number of cities on our landmass I can see the attraction in taking a shot at it nonetheless.
As per earlier, I'd prioritise Computers (Laboratories), because the sooner we get the +25%
in our big cities, the better for just about everything else.I'd also point out again, that I have stopped exactly on this turn to allow for changes in the CPs -vs-3GD setting, if there is serious disagreement with the former approach, which seems preferable to me for the already stated reasons. The only thing needed, if overall preferences go the other way, is to switch from CPs to something else - which I would recommend in just one case: to IW in Berlin (for slow build till whipping causes almost nothing) - that not meaning that I back off from CPs where already slated. The other approach re IW, championed by V, seems to be to get the CPs and then place the IW in the Steel Jaws or Le Chiffre.
Yeah, thanks for reading our posts SO carefully, Cam!
IMHO, you have all the essentials for a great team leader!
Yeah, thanks for reading our posts SO carefully, Cam!
IMHO, you have all the essentials for a great team leader!vranasm
Deity
well most cities get coal plants NATURALLY in matter of 2-3 turns anyway... there is so much OF going on.
and some cities that don't finish it quickly work coast at places anyway (so no big harm whipping).
As I understood it FR and I like the CP road better (even if FR didn't said so, I think the state of game could be used as evidence), but you and woops the other. So there is no clear majority.
as for healthy buildings... harbors (+3 health on coast), grocers (+4 health), supermarkets (thus I would like to go for refrigeration "soon", should be +4 health +1 food directly). Anything above is just "showing off". If we stick to build wealth+research we will be very quickly burning techs and for example genetics is very strong tech for health.
And we have some good food surplus going on anyway so some dent into the food income isn't crippling if we retain enough citizens to work all tiles + some engineers in factories.
Don't forget to build IW in some strong city we already discussed ;-)
and some cities that don't finish it quickly work coast at places anyway (so no big harm whipping).
As I understood it FR and I like the CP road better (even if FR didn't said so, I think the state of game could be used as evidence), but you and woops the other. So there is no clear majority.
as for healthy buildings... harbors (+3 health on coast), grocers (+4 health), supermarkets (thus I would like to go for refrigeration "soon", should be +4 health +1 food directly). Anything above is just "showing off". If we stick to build wealth+research we will be very quickly burning techs and for example genetics is very strong tech for health.
And we have some good food surplus going on anyway so some dent into the food income isn't crippling if we retain enough citizens to work all tiles + some engineers in factories.
Don't forget to build IW in some strong city we already discussed ;-)
OK ... why don't we split the difference?: 
'Yes' to Democracy and a run at The Statue of Liberty to appease Cam and woopdeedoo.
'No' to the Three Gorges Dam and instead go the universal Coal Plant route to appease FiveRings and vranasm.
'No' to the Three Gorges Dam and instead go the universal Coal Plant route to appease FiveRings and vranasm.
Yeah, thanks for reading our posts SO carefully, Cam!
You're very kind ... I guess the main thing is that woop and yourself feel as though you're getting something from it. vran's played an excellent part too!
In setting up these games we've gone with 'solid' but not 'superb' leaders, which I hope has extended a broader scope to the experience than 'Praet' rush' or whatever approach that some leaders can evoke. In light of 'Fu Manchu', I was very much pushed toward taking a Spiritual leader this time (half forgetting how useful Spiritual was as a trait pre-BtS I guess) which I think has worked well in extending greater flexibility in strategy implementation.
As I said, I'm unfortunately 'up to eyeballs' with real life, but I'm almost through it!
vranasm
Deity
OK ... why don't we split the difference?:
'Yes' to Democracy and a run at The Statue of Liberty to appease Cam and woopdeedoo.
'No' to the Three Gorges Dam and instead go the universal Coal Plant route to appease FiveRings and vranasm.
I like this
it works the best anyway since going plastics would be delayed due to wanting SoL and feeling pressure and delaying the 3GD thanks to this too much ;-).
woopdeedoo
King
Ok. One thing before I play. What about bribing Cathy or Washington into war with each other? This will keep their focus on their continent, allowing us to tech to our hearts' content...
vranasm
Deity
if you see cheap opportunity, but I guess Tokugawa is bigger problem then them...
I don't like to give away too much on techs at this stage though... no need to speed AI's.
I tend to agree that Tokugawa's most likely to be the problematic one of the three, and I'd be most mindful of a lame-o invasion from Japan. As vranasm noted, once we get a few Infantry (req. Rifling) Tokugawa really shouldn't be able to make an inch of headway provided we're not careless.
It looks like Catherine's planning to DoW on Roosevelt anyway - the question is whether we want to agree to war against America, and I'm inclined to say "no" ... we need those
while Japan and Russia are in Mercantilism. So, to 'side' with America instead as proposed? Maybe. We give away Military Tradition for 410
and 'distraction value' ... so that's about 1 turn of research saved but we risk the loss of Russia as a trading partner (I'm guessing) for a while. If Catherine cancels our trade deals we lose some /turn and Pigs, but we can trade Bananas to Roosevelt (for whatever that's worth in time).
On balance, my inclination is to stay out of the looming conflict as best we can, and focus on our end game objective, however while Catherine remains in Mercantilism, I'm inclined to side with Roosevelt. To the point of bribing him to DoW vs. Russia? Probably not, but I'm fine to run with the roster if everyone wants to go that path. In the meantime, just keep that 'eye' on Japan for a dumb-ass invasion with Knights, Muskets, and Treb's or some such junk.
It looks like Catherine's planning to DoW on Roosevelt anyway - the question is whether we want to agree to war against America, and I'm inclined to say "no" ... we need those
while Japan and Russia are in Mercantilism. So, to 'side' with America instead as proposed? Maybe. We give away Military Tradition for 410 and 'distraction value' ... so that's about 1 turn of research saved but we risk the loss of Russia as a trading partner (I'm guessing) for a while. If Catherine cancels our trade deals we lose some /turn and Pigs, but we can trade Bananas to Roosevelt (for whatever that's worth in time).On balance, my inclination is to stay out of the looming conflict as best we can, and focus on our end game objective, however while Catherine remains in Mercantilism, I'm inclined to side with Roosevelt. To the point of bribing him to DoW vs. Russia? Probably not, but I'm fine to run with the roster if everyone wants to go that path. In the meantime, just keep that 'eye' on Japan for a dumb-ass invasion with Knights, Muskets, and Treb's or some such junk.
woopdeedoo
King
Alright folks. I have played until 1700AD (10 turns by my estimation) and am happy to report a rather dull set. Electricity, Democracy and Refrigeration is in. Radio is 1 turn at 0% research away. Most cities are on Research or Wealth builds. I have finished IW in Steel Jaw and SoL is almost finished (3 turns or the bulk of our bankroll). I have queued and started slow building Pentagon and Broadway in Prague and Amsterdam respectively. I did this for no reason and we can, of course, cancel the builds for something else if we like and get fail at a later time. Emancipation 
is starting to show it's face so we may want to switch to that civic.
I apologise for the bland report but it pretty much matches the turnset. Our workers have nothing to do and are hanging around. I saw a Galleon of Toku's hanging around but it soon departed. Our boats are hanging around the other borders on sentry duty.
We need to consider where we are putting Wall Street, Hermitage and Scotland Yard. It is also worth noting that Cathy's power is on par with us. She is friendly towards us and still doesn't like USA but I would still keep an eye. We have enough money to upgrade all our troops (about) and more incoming.
at a later time. Emancipation is starting to show it's face so we may want to switch to that civic. I apologise for the bland report but it pretty much matches the turnset. Our workers have nothing to do and are hanging around. I saw a Galleon of Toku's hanging around but it soon departed. Our boats are hanging around the other borders on sentry duty.
We need to consider where we are putting Wall Street, Hermitage and Scotland Yard. It is also worth noting that Cathy's power is on par with us. She is friendly towards us and still doesn't like USA but I would still keep an eye. We have enough money to upgrade all our troops (about) and more incoming.
Thanks for the turnset woop! I'm happy with the two World Wonder builds.
There are a few things that I'm a bit unsure about:
The emergence of Emancipation unhappiness now warrants some strategic approach. Radio brings Rock n Roll and The Eiffel Tower, so these in concert with Broadway should add +5 per city, which may be sufficient to keep us in Slavery for a while longer. Temples remain at +100%
(Spiritual trait) as a short term solution, as does Theatres + Dye. Nonetheless, we may need to forgo Slavery for Emancipation at some point (and the faster growth of Villages into Towns actually might help a fair bit anyway).
Probably worth noting that Catherine's out of WHEOOHRN, and Roosevelt's wanting a bigger bribe to DoW her than was the case at the end of FiveRings' turnset. As woop hinted at, her PowerChart ranking has got a big boost from Rifleman upgrades.
I have no problem with trading for Rifling at this point. I don't think that we're threatened, but a straight swap with Catherine for Steel I feel is OK.
We have yet to found those last two proposed cities (Gold-Wine west of Beijing, Grassland-Oil north of Sanchez) ... any interest in either?
Thanks again!
I'm happy with the two World Wonder builds.There are a few things that I'm a bit unsure about:
We paused Observatory build in Berlin and didn't pursue these in some 'good' cities such as Munich as we wanted to get up Factories and Coal Plants, but I presumed that we'd soon deal with them given that we can run a net surplus at 100% with enough 'build wealth'.
We researched Refrigeration (in preference to Computers / Laboratories) so we can build one Supermarket?
Berlin is running hardly any Specialists, and now slipped into unhappiness.
Shanghai to get Wall Street due to shrine income (it 'should' pay off, despite the lateness in the game). Similar vein - York hasn't got a Market or Grocer despite its shrine income.
The irrigation chain problem east of Vienna mistakenly created by FiveRings last turnset wasn't fixed.
with enough 'build wealth'.We researched Refrigeration (in preference to Computers / Laboratories) so we can build one Supermarket?
Berlin is running hardly any Specialists, and now slipped into unhappiness.
Shanghai to get Wall Street due to shrine income (it 'should' pay off, despite the lateness in the game). Similar vein - York hasn't got a Market or Grocer despite its shrine income.
The irrigation chain problem east of Vienna mistakenly created by FiveRings last turnset wasn't fixed.
The emergence of Emancipation unhappiness now warrants some strategic approach. Radio brings Rock n Roll and The Eiffel Tower, so these in concert with Broadway should add +5
per city, which may be sufficient to keep us in Slavery for a while longer. Temples remain at +100% (Spiritual trait) as a short term solution, as does Theatres + Dye. Nonetheless, we may need to forgo Slavery for Emancipation at some point (and the faster growth of Villages into Towns actually might help a fair bit anyway).Probably worth noting that Catherine's out of WHEOOHRN, and Roosevelt's wanting a bigger bribe to DoW her than was the case at the end of FiveRings' turnset. As woop hinted at, her PowerChart ranking has got a big boost from Rifleman upgrades.
I have no problem with trading for Rifling at this point. I don't think that we're threatened, but a straight swap with Catherine for Steel I feel is OK.
We have yet to found those last two proposed cities (Gold-Wine west of Beijing, Grassland-Oil north of Sanchez) ... any interest in either?
Thanks again!
vranasm << Up
FiveRings << On Deck
Cam_H
woopdeedoo
FiveRings << On Deck
Cam_H
woopdeedoo
vranasm
Deity
I guess the refrigeration goes my way since i suggested to "beeline" it Cam.
I agree with building SoL and Broadway and eventually Eiffel tower in Steel jaw and somewhere the Rock'n'Roll.
I am strongly thinking about spreading the supermarkets...it's 150H build and should offer 3 health. I see there more then 1 city that could use supermarket, not sure if I should be aggressive with the builds though...
and in lots places it will be 1-2 turns build.
Will build Wall street in shanghai that is given
I would like to spread a bit more observatories in some cities and build the factory in kananga it is I think
I would probably finish theatres where they are not yet. We can then use culture slider for unhappy.
As for techs I would think finish Radio->Computers and then it's questionable... Railroad would be good for MG and railroads and then probably for Rocketry? maybe best would be tech computers and whip laboratories around and if the gold gets bet just bank some. That should finish my TS probably.
I don't like to give away Steel for rifles... much better would be Democracy for rifles to Cathy imo.
Emancipation unhapiness is tied to number of AI's running it if I remember correctly.
I would like to burn the gold on teching.
___
if you want to see what I would like to do with every city considering builds it would be much easier for me if I would prepare T0prep save... if the trusts me that I will try to do my best then I won't do it...
but generally theatres, observatories, supermarkets, some factories+cp
world wonders, wall street
other then that back to wealth+research.
after computers whip labs.
York gets market (grocer is there)
Not sure with any new settlements...to me it's just more MM and not worth it... we are touching 2.4k bpt on 100% which is solid. I estimate our peak around 3k out of GA...
I agree with building SoL and Broadway and eventually Eiffel tower in Steel jaw and somewhere the Rock'n'Roll.
I am strongly thinking about spreading the supermarkets...it's 150H build and should offer 3 health. I see there more then 1 city that could use supermarket, not sure if I should be aggressive with the builds though...
and in lots places it will be 1-2 turns build.
Will build Wall street in shanghai that is given
I would like to spread a bit more observatories in some cities and build the factory in kananga it is I think
I would probably finish theatres where they are not yet. We can then use culture slider for unhappy.
As for techs I would think finish Radio->Computers and then it's questionable... Railroad would be good for MG and railroads and then probably for Rocketry? maybe best would be tech computers and whip laboratories around and if the gold gets bet just bank some. That should finish my TS probably.
I don't like to give away Steel for rifles... much better would be Democracy for rifles to Cathy imo.
Emancipation unhapiness is tied to number of AI's running it if I remember correctly.
I would like to burn the gold on teching.
___
if you want to see what I would like to do with every city considering builds it would be much easier for me if I would prepare T0prep save... if the trusts me that I will try to do my best then I won't do it...
but generally theatres, observatories, supermarkets, some factories+cp
world wonders, wall street
other then that back to wealth+research.
after computers whip labs.
York gets market (grocer is there)
Not sure with any new settlements...to me it's just more MM and not worth it... we are touching 2.4k bpt on 100% which is solid. I estimate our peak around 3k out of GA...
vranasm
Deity
just a remark about the sleeping workers... would be much easier for me if you put sign above slept workers next time...
will be very tough for me to wake up everyone and not forget someone.
will be very tough for me to wake up everyone and not forget someone.
Thanks for the replies.
I'm still a bit unsure on why we'd beeline Refrigeration and not Computers, and given that we did get Refrigeration we've hardly leveraged this tech'. Anyway, it's a moot point I guess.
'My bad' on Grocer in York
, but 'yes' - I think we can whip out a Market there.
Good work woop' in finally getting Kangana to receive Judaism btw!
I'm quite open on the Rifling trade (if indeed we even trade for it). If you'd prefer to give up Democracy than Steel, that's fine, but as you note, it could well worsen our Emancipation unhappiness.
Happy with your plan - Berlin can run Engineers and Merchants if you're lining up the next Golden Age ... or are we saving the Great People for a Golden Age or two while building spaceship parts?
I'm still a bit unsure on why we'd beeline Refrigeration and not Computers, and given that we did get Refrigeration we've hardly leveraged this tech'. Anyway, it's a moot point I guess.
'My bad' on Grocer in York
, but 'yes' - I think we can whip out a Market there.Good work woop' in finally getting Kangana to receive Judaism btw!
I'm quite open on the Rifling trade (if indeed we even trade for it). If you'd prefer to give up Democracy than Steel, that's fine, but as you note, it could well worsen our Emancipation unhappiness.
Happy with your plan - Berlin can run Engineers and Merchants if you're lining up the next Golden Age ... or are we saving the Great People for a Golden Age or two while building spaceship parts?
vranasm
Deity
golden age when building spaceship is good thing...
so I should care about popping something useful to have 3 mixed GPs better.
as for the fridge... i was the meaning we will have big problem with healthiness. At some places we have bigger happy cap then healthy cap, but it's in around ~7 cities from memory...
that was my mistake and overreaction and i appologize, computers would be better since I expect us to have laboratory literally everywhere.
so I should care about popping something useful to have 3 mixed GPs better.
as for the fridge... i was the meaning we will have big problem with healthiness. At some places we have bigger happy cap then healthy cap, but it's in around ~7 cities from memory...
that was my mistake and overreaction and i appologize, computers would be better since I expect us to have laboratory literally everywhere.
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