vranasm
Deity
? we take peace treaty for 10 turns if we take the techs...
not sure if we talk about the same thing or I misunderstood some concepts in warlords (which can be possible).
Never heard (in BtS) about getting techs with Cease Fire.
Moonraker
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
? we take peace treaty for 10 turns if we take the techs...
not sure if we talk about the same thing or I misunderstood some concepts in warlords (which can be possible).
Never heard (in BtS) about getting techs with Cease Fire.
I'd rather go along V's route, thanks for getting us out of the Romanesque trap, V! We have enough cats to take Bismarck's last city - or two, if he settles again - and we need to speed up on the tech path as we need space victory and we don't know what is going on on other continents (the latter might be a false alarm, but I can't look into the GNP demographics).
I need to check the save to have an opinion with regard to the Calendar as opposed to getting some other tech instead, that could prolong somewhat the SH effect.
I understand that V is planning to have some more turns. Just checking as I seem to be the next on the list, is that correct, Cam?
EDIT: Cross post with V: Yes, I think you are correct about getting the techs, and getting them only thru peace in WL as in BtS. And there should be only one city left if no names on the screen, as in BtS if I remember correctly the few games played when it was still functioning on my computer.
vranasm
Deity
well I played only 8 turns (maybe 9 if we count T0), so thought that another 7 would be fair, but if the roster thinks my job is done...
Hi - good work vranasm! 
Roster;
I'd like to do some sums on the Prague vs. Beijing under Bureaucracy question if that's OK. Shouldn't take too long.
I'd take the deal and re-declare in 10 turns as proposed. "No" ... cease fire is just a mutual cease fire, you don't get "cease fire + technology" in the deal.
Roster;
woopdeedoo
vranasm (7-ish turns to go)
FiveRings
Cam
vranasm (7-ish turns to go)
FiveRings
Cam
I'd like to do some sums on the Prague vs. Beijing under Bureaucracy question if that's OK. Shouldn't take too long.
I'd take the deal and re-declare in 10 turns as proposed. "No" ... cease fire is just a mutual cease fire, you don't get "cease fire + technology" in the deal.
vranasm
Deity
that's fair... would be really surprised if Beijing comes out worse though
.One other thing that is in my head right now, I really should look into generating GPP's situation... I think we're running in Prague TGL, I think I neglected building NE there though.
Maybe after switch into Bureau those boosted hammers could be used for NE before Beijing takes over Bureau (I am optimist
).woopdeedoo
King
since I am not too familiar with the James Bond franchise, I thought I would link a Wikipedia article to assist us in naming our "Moonraker" cities more appropriately: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_James_Bond_film_locations
I've done some quick sums as noted - really can't see too much difference between Prague and Beijing (both are very good cities) in terms of their power as our capital, and as such I'm happy with the 'Status Quo':
Prague has a couple more 'good' tiles if you count Plains and Coast as 'not good', but Beijing's Cottages are better established / more developed. Food count 'as is' favours Prague by +2
, but this can be changed. The two merged Great Prophets in Prague roughly equate to the Priest + Gold Mine in Beijing. One could possibly argue that Beijing is slightly more central than Prague, but if we get The Forbidden Palace up in 'say' Hamburg, this won't be much of an issue.
Right now I'd stick with what we've got rather than shift the Palace to Beijing, but I'm open to a counter-argument if there's good reason to move our capital.
In terms of the National Epic, I can live with with Prague if the roster can go with a 'hybrid' as our
Farm (it's getting 10/turn from The Great Library {Scientists and WoW} and Stonehenge), however for a more 'pure' option, Berlin presents itself well with 7/turn from WoWs (two of the four lending Great Engineer points), three food resources, and a fair amount of Farmable Grassland. Oxford in Prague is almost a gimme (isn't it???), so if we go with both Oxford and National Epic there, we'll need to look elsewhere for Ironworks. I'd look at Munich as another option for National Epic except Bismark did such a good job at growing those Cottages that I'd hate to lose them to Farms.
woop - thanks for the link.
Prague has a couple more 'good' tiles if you count Plains and Coast as 'not good', but Beijing's Cottages are better established / more developed. Food count 'as is' favours Prague by +2
, but this can be changed. The two merged Great Prophets in Prague roughly equate to the Priest + Gold Mine in Beijing. One could possibly argue that Beijing is slightly more central than Prague, but if we get The Forbidden Palace up in 'say' Hamburg, this won't be much of an issue.Right now I'd stick with what we've got rather than shift the Palace to Beijing, but I'm open to a counter-argument if there's good reason to move our capital.
In terms of the National Epic, I can live with with Prague if the roster can go with a 'hybrid' as our
Farm (it's getting 10/turn from The Great Library {Scientists and WoW} and Stonehenge), however for a more 'pure' option, Berlin presents itself well with 7/turn from WoWs (two of the four lending Great Engineer points), three food resources, and a fair amount of Farmable Grassland. Oxford in Prague is almost a gimme (isn't it???), so if we go with both Oxford and National Epic there, we'll need to look elsewhere for Ironworks. I'd look at Munich as another option for National Epic except Bismark did such a good job at growing those Cottages that I'd hate to lose them to Farms.woop - thanks for the link.
vranasm
Deity
hmm I don't feel convinced, but since Prague is coastal (2 more TR's now and harbor in the future) it should not be bad (and I am super lazy to recheck the math ).
Where we will put OU? Prague seems like clear choice if we decide to stick with Palace there.
).Where we will put OU? Prague seems like clear choice if we decide to stick with Palace there.
vranasm
Deity
IMPORTANT
We should discuss the tech path before I play those 7 more turns. What is general opinion?
I am kind of split...
We should discuss the tech path before I play those 7 more turns. What is general opinion?
I am kind of split...
Sorry for the cross posts ... my modem went into a temporary coma just as I was making a quick fix to #207.
I too am divided on the tech' path. Given it's 960AD and we're still a fair way back in the tech' tree, Liberalism's freebie looks a bit dubious for us. Even if we disregard the Optics and Astronomy pathway, I'm not sure whether Philosophy (Pacifism ... hoping for two Great Scientist pops) or Paper (Sankore, more direct path to Education) is the go. We've got a gamble on our hands with popping a Great Scientist out of Prague anyway, so can't bank on that.
My leaning is toward Paper > Education > Philosophy > Liberalism if it's still up for grabs, and maybe Paper > Education > Compass > Machinery > Optics > Astronomy if Liberalism goes by the time we get Education done.
I too am divided on the tech' path. Given it's 960AD and we're still a fair way back in the tech' tree, Liberalism's freebie looks a bit dubious for us. Even if we disregard the Optics and Astronomy pathway, I'm not sure whether Philosophy (Pacifism ... hoping for two Great Scientist pops) or Paper (Sankore, more direct path to Education) is the go. We've got a gamble on our hands with popping a Great Scientist out of Prague anyway, so can't bank on that.
My leaning is toward Paper > Education > Philosophy > Liberalism if it's still up for grabs, and maybe Paper > Education > Compass > Machinery > Optics > Astronomy if Liberalism goes by the time we get Education done.
vranasm
Deity
well yeah... banking on paper in next 7 turns feels like the safe play.
As for IW... I have bad experience with building it in coastal place, would like something more inland, but we're still fair share away.
Should I declare on England in my TS and make progress?
As for IW... I have bad experience with building it in coastal place, would like something more inland, but we're still fair share away.
Should I declare on England in my TS and make progress?
Agree with all of that.
I'll leave that decision to the rest of the roster.
woopdeedoo
King
Wow. Lots and lots of insightful posts and stuff. V, I think that if you are going to take peace treaty with Bismarck and you feel confident that our troops are ok to go to war, then knock yourself out!
vranasm
Deity
theres a problem... I just don't know
we have big army, better to employ them. Ideally I should scout out england at least 6 tiles deep, but if I do this I could miss the opportunity window
.Will have to check in the game the tech screen (the warlords UI is killing me... I don't see there things I am used to first hand) and probably power graph.
the peace treaty is given, since it gives us awesome CS tech and needed calendar tech.
vranasm
Deity
The rest of the TS is played.
First I take the peace from Bismarck.
and switch into Bur
we start to bank on Paper ofc.
Then it's time to check Churchill. Church has 7 cities.
Since he hasn't Engineering in „can research“ tab it's safe to assume he has engineering. So I will sent 1 of the new HA's to check his land for defense in cities, but I think this is stop for our military might.
Churchill wants Music
not going to happen
Hmm too bad I didn't realize that we don't have OB with churchill... well the troops are gathering at the borders slowly, so I will basically postpone the decision.
Calendar meant bad news – stonehenge stopped working (in BtS it's at Astronomy I think)
We pop Great scientist in capital....
hmm Philo bulb, academy or golden age... something that can surely wait (academy being my small favorite due to banked gold)
Our merged army is really big, maybe too big?
We got lucky pop of gems in capital
hmm I don't think we have there road though
I raze the barb city
the TS is near the end...
I set Notre Dame for the fail gold in Hamburg
in the south east is settler in position I would like to settle new city (he is 0/2 moves so next turn)
You would realize I whipped HE city for the settler and will slowly regrow back to 5.
The irigation is slowly spreading (very slowly though)
Cities are mostly grown and not whipped, I think this is good phase for growing.
The big army is really laying in my head now.
We have a lot of gold now but will be burned in ~3 turns. I would use the GS for academy and burn the gold on paper.
Still not sure with the big army, we have to wipe Bizmarck and maybe use it on Church even if attrition will be higher.
Cities start to be pretty productive and we are out of hole even if we don't run much wealth now ;-)
First I take the peace from Bismarck.
Spoiler :
and switch into Bur
Spoiler :
we start to bank on Paper ofc.
Then it's time to check Churchill. Church has 7 cities.
Since he hasn't Engineering in „can research“ tab it's safe to assume he has engineering. So I will sent 1 of the new HA's to check his land for defense in cities, but I think this is stop for our military might.
Churchill wants Music
Spoiler :
not going to happen
Hmm too bad I didn't realize that we don't have OB with churchill... well the troops are gathering at the borders slowly, so I will basically postpone the decision.
Calendar meant bad news – stonehenge stopped working (in BtS it's at Astronomy I think)
We pop Great scientist in capital....
Spoiler :
hmm Philo bulb, academy or golden age... something that can surely wait (academy being my small favorite due to banked gold)
Our merged army is really big, maybe too big?
Spoiler :
We got lucky pop of gems in capital
Spoiler :
hmm I don't think we have there road though
I raze the barb city
Spoiler :
the TS is near the end...
I set Notre Dame for the fail gold in Hamburg
in the south east is settler in position I would like to settle new city (he is 0/2 moves so next turn)
You would realize I whipped HE city for the settler and will slowly regrow back to 5.
The irigation is slowly spreading (very slowly though)
Cities are mostly grown and not whipped, I think this is good phase for growing.
The big army is really laying in my head now.
We have a lot of gold now
but will be burned in ~3 turns. I would use the GS for academy and burn the gold on paper.Still not sure with the big army, we have to wipe Bizmarck and maybe use it on Church even if attrition will be higher.
Cities start to be pretty productive and we are out of hole even if we don't run much wealth now ;-)
Nice one! 
Really good work to pop those Gems! 
Getting so many Courthouses up sure has put us on a healthier pathway 'economically'.
On Calendar and Stonehenge, now it's no issue. The +1 through Monument-Charismatic has been compensated by access to our Sugar Plantation, and we can run a specialist citizen in concert with The Sistine Chapel to get our first border pop if we miss spreading Judaism into new cities in time.
FiveRings is up, and I look forward to his and woopdeedoo's thoughts as to 'where to now?'.
Really good work to pop those Gems! Getting so many Courthouses up sure has put us on a healthier pathway 'economically'.
On Calendar and Stonehenge, now it's no issue. The +1
through Monument-Charismatic has been compensated by access to our Sugar Plantation, and we can run a specialist citizen in concert with The Sistine Chapel to get our first border pop if we miss spreading Judaism into new cities in time.FiveRings is up, and I look forward to his and woopdeedoo's thoughts as to 'where to now?'.
I couldn't get to the CivFan server yesterday and earlier today: too slow connection and, consequently, no access to the webpage.
I will have a bit of a hectic day tomorrow: birthday (not mine), a friend is leaving back for the States, some urgent tasks need finishing. I might not be able to look well enough into the save till Monday evening.
If you can extend my 48 hours, so that I could get a feedback on my PPP, that's good. If not, then either V can extend his own TS or a switch will be needed, and is fine with me.
I will have a bit of a hectic day tomorrow: birthday (not mine), a friend is leaving back for the States, some urgent tasks need finishing. I might not be able to look well enough into the save till Monday evening.
If you can extend my 48 hours, so that I could get a feedback on my PPP, that's good. If not, then either V can extend his own TS or a switch will be needed, and is fine with me.
PPP:
0. 10 turns envisaged, as per rules. Would try to minimize war effort and grow the economy as far as possible.
1. War and peace: go after Bis in 1060 AD; attack Church after erazing Bis (if Bis settles a 2nd city, I'd again take his techs for ten turns of peace, and charge into UK despite the Itza) I'd need to build a phant to take care of the UK LB by Munich and the trireme in the SW.
2. Techs: go paper>edu>philo>lib with possible deviation to Astro beeline if Lib taken away, as per Cam's #210. If we meet stronger than expected resistance form Church, I'll look into militechs and consult.
3. Wonders:
3.1. I agree on Berlin as GP farm, Prague as "pure" SSC (I have never had the possibility to try separation of functuions of this type, so would like to give it a try; this might slow our pumping up of GrScs, though, so, if there's a lot of resistance from the team, I'd be willing to reconsider). Run Sc and other specialists in Prague after finishing the forge. Sankore and OU in Prague.
3.2. Consequently, I'll go for the Colossus, the NE, then ND (or the fail money) in Berlin, and would use Prague to build a monastery, then units for back up.
4. Specifics: I don't understand:
4.1. Settler in Jaws - but will finish it and settle the wines by the coast below Nanjing (or was it Shanghai?!) as suggested in one of my earlier posts;
4.2. Missionary in Shanghai - I'd rather switch to a forge;
4.3. CH in Killer - I'd rather switch to forge to increase efficiency of whipping first;
4.4. CH in Frankfurth - I'd rather build a WB first;
4.5. CH in Vienne - I'd rather switch to gran>forge first.
I'd also rather use Hamburg for units.
That's about it.
Comments? Suggestions? Please, try to intervene by tomorrow's evening, when I'm planning to make my moves. Of course, if there are serious objections or corrections in the PPP suggested, we'll continue our discussion.
0. 10 turns envisaged, as per rules. Would try to minimize war effort and grow the economy as far as possible.
1. War and peace: go after Bis in 1060 AD; attack Church after erazing Bis (if Bis settles a 2nd city, I'd again take his techs for ten turns of peace, and charge into UK despite the Itza) I'd need to build a phant to take care of the UK LB by Munich and the trireme in the SW.
2. Techs: go paper>edu>philo>lib with possible deviation to Astro beeline if Lib taken away, as per Cam's #210. If we meet stronger than expected resistance form Church, I'll look into militechs and consult.
3. Wonders:
3.1. I agree on Berlin as GP farm, Prague as "pure" SSC (I have never had the possibility to try separation of functuions of this type, so would like to give it a try; this might slow our pumping up of GrScs, though, so, if there's a lot of resistance from the team, I'd be willing to reconsider). Run Sc and other specialists in Prague after finishing the forge. Sankore and OU in Prague.
3.2. Consequently, I'll go for the Colossus, the NE, then ND (or the fail money) in Berlin, and would use Prague to build a monastery, then units for back up.
4. Specifics: I don't understand:
4.1. Settler in Jaws - but will finish it and settle the wines by the coast below Nanjing (or was it Shanghai?!) as suggested in one of my earlier posts;
4.2. Missionary in Shanghai - I'd rather switch to a forge;
4.3. CH in Killer - I'd rather switch to forge to increase efficiency of whipping first;
4.4. CH in Frankfurth - I'd rather build a WB first;
4.5. CH in Vienne - I'd rather switch to gran>forge first.
I'd also rather use Hamburg for units.
That's about it.
Comments? Suggestions? Please, try to intervene by tomorrow's evening, when I'm planning to make my moves. Of course, if there are serious objections or corrections in the PPP suggested, we'll continue our discussion.
vranasm
Deity
well the settler is meant for the razed fish barb city, it looked like good plan ;-).
the missionaries are in advance to get juda spread for the shrine we planned to build.
as for CH's, they are just to fix economy since the slider is still at 0. I don't really think we should build something before the CH's.
We should maybe think about FP since it will be strong thing right now. Probably some of the German cities will do, Beijing is too south for good FP.
As for the war against Church, I would step in take one city most and wait for counterattack... you could even maybe declare first now and wait for counterattack, kill and progress then.
I think you can take Biz as side step.
the missionaries are in advance to get juda spread for the shrine we planned to build.
as for CH's, they are just to fix economy since the slider is still at 0. I don't really think we should build something before the CH's.
We should maybe think about FP since it will be strong thing right now. Probably some of the German cities will do, Beijing is too south for good FP.
As for the war against Church, I would step in take one city most and wait for counterattack... you could even maybe declare first now and wait for counterattack, kill and progress then.
I think you can take Biz as side step.
