Moonraker

[vranasm]

@woop

biggest priority for your TS is to get Astronomy and get trade routes with all AI's on the other continent.

It implies you need to meet them first too.

There is a lot of subsequent tasks, but the first 2 are at strategy layer, others are more tactical layer.

I wouldn't bother with any war until we meet other level of troops and we are basically set up for Mil Trad.

Astronomy should bring us base 3 commerce trade routes and should seriously boost our commerce. It is not rare that at astro we should be touching 1k bpt at 100% slider.

That's one of the challenges - move the slider to 100% research sustain.

If you don't have time I think I could in theory sneak in few turns tomorrow (if we assume i will write today some form of PPP), but not want to force myself too much ;-) it's yours and FR games mostly anyway ;-).

Btw I wanted to comment a bit on the buildings issue Cam layed out yesterday. I really like markets and grocers and supermarkets everywhere in SS games, but not at this point of the game.
Grocers+supermarkets are post-factory era builds usually.
Markets are good builds in shrine cities of course, other then that, building wealth straight will be better, we need to move to 100% sustain and run it for long time.
In typical SS game after this phase (getting to critical amount of cities) you run 100% slider for 50+ turns.

The tech order after Astro is very important. Not used to WL, so dunno how it goes there exactly, but there is big decision - SciMeth+Bio+Comm x Assembly Line for us. I like maybe a little bit factories better, since it doesn't obsolete monasteries and TGL and the + 100 % production is significant (factory+CP), but I can see a point for Bio+Comm first, but we will certainly get there some hit in bpt (typically you can lose around 100 bpt once you get SciMeth)

with factories you can easilly have 15+ cities running 100 hammers, it usually transitions into running around 3k bpt over 30 cities with mixture of wealth and research.

Another point about workers. You should review a bit the land woop and preimprove with workshops, watermills, windmills with the outlook of us going SP.
I wouldn't crash any cottages though, I see us going with US and FS, even if mixing this with SP in BtS has very bad feeling ;-).

 

[Cam_H]

[Crossposts!]

woopdeedoo,

Thanks for your post. My '2¢'

On trading with Roosevelt

For 'my money' I wouldn't trade any technology with Roosevelt until we see what Russia's got at least. Also, Roosevelt is well ahead of us in tech', so I'm a little wary of handing over a lot right now. I wouldn't be bothered with Theology now as I don't think that it will serve us any purpose. If we had to trade anything, I'd consider Liberalism <> Engineering + Map + 180, which is still a bit lopsided in my view.

As noted earlier, a World Map purchase from Roosevelt could possibly show us England.

On

I would merge the Great Scientist into Prague, but can live with the Golden Age or the Printing Press bulb.

The idea of burning a Great Engineer on a Golden Age (instead of the Great Scientist) is 'uncomfortable' for me - but there aren't a ton of especially great Wonders on the horizon either ...

So I'd prefer to burn the Great Engineer (which is an assumption - could be a Great Merchant) on the Golden Age with the Great Artist, and merge the Great Scientist into Prague.

On war with England

As I noted earlier, I'd be in no great hurry to get rid of England. Our units are outdated, and with few exceptions probably need total replacement. I'd do enough to secure our safety, but I would wait until we had a fair number of Cannons and Grenadiers before a DoW. In a nutshell, I'd rather prioritise our technological development and make more advanced units along the way as the tech's become available to us (in my view; Chemistry and Steel).​

I look forward to your PPP. Enjoy your wine touring.

_______

(vran - I put a Market in Berlin so it can run Merchants outside Caste if that's what you're referring to).

 

[vranasm]

@Cam

I got a feeling from your post that you want to build Markets everywhere, that's something i won't do right now.

Another thing, didn't we kind of wanted to make GPP farm in Berlin?

I have to say this concept of mixing OU, cottages and GPP's in one city is strange for me ;-).

I can see us going into slavery after we get AL (to whip factories, CP's, grocers and eventually supermarkets) probably not before, the value of slavery should diminish for some time now.

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

On Markets

Like second-tier commerce hubs, I suspect I like Markets more than many, so I've curtailed any push for them here! I'd still go for Markets in; York (shrine ), Shanghai (shrine ), and Berlin (can run two Merchant specialists). If I was playing single player, I'd be looking at cities with a handful of Cottaged tiles such as Nanjing, but I'm fine to let it slide here.

On Berlin

Yep - that's my understanding too, which is why I chose to undertake a Market for Merchants, but we can build Temples and even Cathedrals there for Priests. Alternately, as you've hinted at, we can consider the Caste System if we want to 'ramp up' our rate.

On Prague

As discussed much earlier in the thread, having The Great Library in the capital and having the National Epic elsewhere is a bit of a lost opportunity, but at the time the only city really capable of getting The Great Library at all was Prague. The Scientists that are being run there now aren't specifically there to produce points, but just bump up the output while we pursue Astronomy, which is as agreed, pretty important. Hopefully Catherine isn't in Mercantilism. Having access to Observatories is nice too.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Hello everyone. I'm back from tasting the wines of the Western Cape! I haven't got a very detailed plan yet so would like input from the roster. Here are my thoughts so far:

Great People and Golden Ages

We have a GSc, a GA and (next turn, probably) a GE. What to do with them. i have to agree with Cam about burning a GE on a GAge. It feels wrong. OTOH, with the TM soon to be completed and there not really being any other WoWs for the GE to build, what do? We could bulb half of PP with the GSc or Drama with the GA. Alternatively, we can use the GA to bomb the German city out of revolt, possibly allowing access to Hastings. I'm unsure as to what a GE will bulb. Finally, we can settle the GSc and GA+GE GAge. Or Settle Sci, bomb with GA and hold GE for future WoW or even settle him in our Pyramids city. Tbh, I like the last option best but am not dead set on anything right now.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Technology

Astro > Banking > Econ?

Trade Feud+Theo+WM+ with Roosy? Maybe get Engineering+WM+ instead of Feud+Theo?

Settlements

Settle the two tundra tiles in the South and this mediocre city (old city ruins):

Buildings

Build monasteries, Temples and Grocers/Markets in our gold producing cities. Maybe start gearing towards some more modern military? Maces, Trebs for offense and LBs for our invisible "defensive" army?

 

[vranasm]

why banking econ? we need to go for Mil Trad (imo) while building small fleet of galleons.

I would definitely start GA with a mixture of GP's we have meaning we would run ~16 turns long GA which should help with our tech rate and production of that small galleons fleet and military units.

Not sure if the upgrade costs in WL are so favorable as in BtS, but if they are we could build some more WE's and upgrade them into cavs after Mil Trad and then go kick the Russians butt a bit ;-).

 

[woopdeedoo]

Not sure if the upgrade costs in WL are so favorable as in BtS, but if they are we could build some more WE's and upgrade them into cavs after Mil Trad and then go kick the Russians butt a bit ;-).

There will be no kicking of Russian butts until they have signed a defense pack with us! I don't know why the Econ route. I like free Great People.

 

[vranasm]

There will be no kicking of Russian butts until they have signed a defense pack with us! I don't know why the Econ route. I like free Great People.

this rule:
[Found a Defensive Pact with Russia at least one point during the course of the game by either vassalage or mutual agreement.]

implies we can strictly vassal Russians with no defense pact before and honestly it will be much much easier then trying to appease them to +10 rating to sign standard defense pact.

 

[Cam_H]

woopdeedoo - Glad to see your safe return! I trust you found yourself some fair vino along the way.

Just quick responses to the above (many already stated in my recent posts);

My preference is to merge the Great Scientist into Prague, and run a Golden Age with the Great Artist and whatever comes out of Berlin assuming not another Great Artist. I can however live with a Printing Press bulb or using the Great Scientist in a Golden Age if the roster would prefer. I'm not a big fan of culture bombing (unless going for the Culture victory condition).

I would not make a tech' trade with Roosevelt until we've met Catherine. We could get a 2-for-1 or 3-for-2 or something. I see no real benefit in giving away anything for Theology unless we're considering running the Theocracy civic (which I doubt). I would however buy Roosevelt's map.

I am more confident of getting Catherine to a point where she'll sign a Defensive Pact than vranasm seems to be (swap to Hereditary Rule and Free Religion, open borders, gift some tech', maybe there could be a spot for a junk city near her borders that we could gift her?), but I can support an intercontinental invasion if the roster goes that way. I am mindful of tripping Domination in light of our Space victory condition requirement - we may need to give several of Catherine's cities back to her if we do vassalise her, especially if we've already taken out England at that point.

On tech', I can go along with vranasm's proposal of Gunpowder + Military Tradition after Astronomy. I personally lean to the much longer pathway of Steel and Communism, but I'm not fixated with that approach.

Curious on whether it's time to review our civics or not?

As far as builds are concerned, you can keep working on fail from Wonders, but be mindful not to finish Angkor Wat or Notre Dame assuming that we're using them in this manner. A few Workers and Settlers in cities at happy cap' or at least working their only decent tiles. I've got no problem with 'build Wealth' otherwise providing Granaries, Courthouses, and Forges are up, with Barracks and Stables in unit pumps and Libraries in commerce sites. Astronomy heralds the arrival of Observatories, and these could go up in our better science sites. Later on, we can put up Observatories in any big production sites as they're the prerequisite building for Laboratories for our Spaceship parts. I'd put an Observatory in Berlin for the Scientist slot. While The Great Lighthouse is still 'alive', some larger cities could benefit from Harbors.

Galleons and Cavalry look like the two units we should be churning out when we can assuming that we're going down the Military Tradition line.​

 

[woopdeedoo]

Ok then. So all in all, it sounds like I need to settle the GSc in Prague. Use the GA and next GP (probably GE) to start GAge. TM will finish, making it a double whammy. Start getting a fleet of Galleons out and tech towards MilTrad+Gunpowder. Not too much to deal with. Build infra as required (LHs, CHs, and other essentials). I will also try and spread both the Jewish and Hindu faith to all cities without it.

 

[Cam_H]

There's a chance Berlin will pop a Great Artist, so I'd maybe wait a turn for that to pop before committing to merging our Great Scientist into Prague to ensure the first Golden Age.

Uncertainties for me include; (a.) civic choices, and (b.) when to re-DoW England - if ever.

 

[woopdeedoo]

There's a chance Berlin will pop a Great Artist, so I'd maybe wait a turn for that to pop before committing to merging our Great Scientist into Prague to ensure the first Golden Age.

Uncertainties for me include; (a.) civic choices, and (b.) when to re-DoW England - if ever.

Ok. I agree to wait the one turn before merging. I would re-DoW once we have more modern units in place as well as more seige units. Probably not in my TS. Once we have the whole continent to ourselves, it just makes things easier. Imagine we DoW someone overseas and move our troops there and then they bribe England to DoW our "defence"-less cities...

 

[vranasm]

If we go MilTrad that means Cavalry and imo no siege.

If we really go with MilTrad I could imagine our HE city to produce some more WE's for upgrade.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Ok. I will play tonight. Will post report tomorrow morning first thing.

 

[woopdeedoo]

SO I played 7 turns. This is the report. I would like to complete the rest of the turnset after getting some feedback from the roster.

Inherited Turn:

Start moving all units with outstanding moves to Cologne and spread the Jewish faith to Frankfurt.

Turn 1:

Builds complete and I set the following:
Vienna: Jewish Temple>Market
SJG: Worker>Wealth
Monte Carlo: Mace>Mace
Amsterdam: Barracks>Harbor
KHG: Library>Harbor
Hastings: Library>Culture
Beijing: Ankor Wat (Interrupt)>Jewish Missionary

Norbert Rillieux, a Great Engineer is born in Berlin. Our GSc is settled and I launch a Golden Age! Set research to 50% @ +11pt. Astro due in 3.
Some MM sees our pt up to +42 @50%
I also buy Roosevelt's map:

To see Churchill's land:

Turn 2:

Builds complete and I set the following:
Monte Carlo: Mace>Wealth
Hamburg: Mace>Jewish Monastery
Geneva: Worker>Settler
Prague: Mace>Court House
Amsterdam: Harbor>Stable
Zurich: Barracks>Stable
Frankfurt: Forge>Stable
Hamburg: Jewish Monastery>Jewish Temple
Venice: Court House > Granary
Beijing: Jewish missionary>Jewish Synagogue (Interrupting Ankor Wat again)

Turn 3:

Astronomy is in!!

I set our research to Military Tradition and set the following builds in our cities:
Chengdou: Worker>Market
Berlin: Market>Galleon
York: Mace>Galleon
London: Caravel>Galleon

Roosevelt finishes Notre Dame and we get a boat-load of cash. 363 , to be exact...

I take this opportunity to grab my whip and start beating on my slaves:

Prague: Court house, 2pop
Vienna: Market, 3pop
Shangai: Market, 1pop
Zurich: Stable, 1pop
Largo: Forge, 1pop
Blowfield: Granary, 1pop

Turn 4:

Roosevelt proposes this deal:

I politely decline. We meet Tokugawa and he is not too friendly... Surprise, surprise!
The Taj Mahal completes, stringing two Golden Ages together. Gotta love it!!

I set the following builds in our cities:

Prague: Court House>Observatory
Vienna: Market>Lighthouse
Amsterdam: Stable>Observatory
Shanghai: Market>Crossbow
Le Chiffre: Notre Dame (Fail)>War Elephant
Hamburg: Jewish Temple> Jewish Missionary
Largo: Forge>Crossbow
Munich: Jewish Temple>Galleon
Blowfield: Granary>Lighthouse
Hastings: Culture>Hindu Monastery

Roosy comes along with some rubbish trade. I renegotiate and he is willing to do this:

I almost stop and defer but decide to decline in order to see what we can get from Cathy.

Turn 5:

In this turn, I only built stuff:

Vienna: Lighthouse>Observatory
Nanjing: Worker>Galleon
KHG: Harbor>Galleon
Frankfurt: Stable>Galleon
Hamburg: Jewish Missionary>Jewish Missionary

Turn 6:

Military Tradition is in and I set our research to Gunpowder!!

The following builds are queued:

Beijing: Jewish Synagogue>Observatory
Le Chiffre: War Elephant>Crossbow
Hamburg: Jewish Missionary>Christian Missionary
York: Galleon>Galleon

At this time, my exploring caravel gets to our lady friend, Chatherine's, door. We shake hands, exchange pleasantries and discuss trade. I make the following trade:

After our deliberations, Catherine is rather pleased with us. I also decide to take this time to really shake our cities around. Hire a LOAD of scientists, to the point of starving cities, to get our research to a point where we can land the technology of gunpowder in a single turn.

Turn 7:

Gunpowder is discovered!

I select "Guilds" as our next technology."Why Guilds?", I hear you say. Well, during the course of my turnset, I had built a few workshops. Acquiring the knowledge of Guilds will help these improvements improve! I also decide to do some resource trading with our "Pleased" companion Catherine:

A (very)few of our cities also completes their current assignments so I queue new ones:

Zurich: Library>Musket
Beijing: Whip Observatory for 2pop
Hastings: Whip Hindu Monastery for 1pop
Monte Carlo: Wealth>West Point (I assumed we want West Point in our Heroic Epic city)
Cologne: Whip Court House for 3pop

Turn 8:

A tome of mighty significance is published globally:

This please Hugo as many hands make light work. Especially when building Space Ships!

Roosevelt is approached and a bargain is struck:

After this trade occurs, I decide to do some additional business:

A few (more than previously) city builds require my attention:

Shanghai: Crossbow>Grocer (to be scrapped for a bank instead)
Beijing: Observatory>Stable
Guangzhou: Observatory>Bank
Berlin: Galleon>Galleon
Hastings: Hindu Monastery>Theatre
Cologne: Court House>Barracks

Where next?

Hastings has gone into revolt. I want to take 2~4 turns to upgrade our units and DoW Churchill. Him and his stupid is now annoying me. Also, the time for civic swaps may be upon us. I am considering Theocracy and Vassalage while we build up our magnificent forces. At this time, I defer to the roster on this matter.

 

[Cam_H]

woopdeedoo,

Thanks - and save?

Thanks for the report - if you're able to post the game, it'd be helpful. Looks on the face of it to be good progress.

The other continent

I'd be curious as to where the American-Russian-Japanese relations are with each other, and what tech' trade options are available. It'd be great to get Economics and swap into Free Market. Again, I'm not sure if it's easier to woo Catherine than to attack Russia, esp. if she's already "rather pleased with us".

Diamonds are Forever

Maybe we can trade away our Gems to Catherine, wait a turn or two, and then if possible trade in one of Roosevelt's Gems? After the required number of turns, cancel the Russian trade, so we have two Gems resources (our own + one of America's) and satisfy the "Diamonds are Forever" variant. Once it's ticked off, we can cancel the Gems import from America. This won't work if America's already trading away one of its Gems to Russia or Japan.

Unit pump

I'm happy with West Point in Monte Carlo. Depends if we have another really good unit pump somewhere - so rather than having one excellent unit pump city in Monte Carlo and another dedicated unit production city without any great 'kicker', we could have two less than ideal unit pumps with 'something' going for each. As I said initially though, I'm happy enough to put it in Monte Carlo and start churning out high level Cav's afterward.

Civics and strategy

I'm not sure if we really need Theocracy + Vassalage, but it's hard to tell without seeing the game. I would think that if we try to sway Russia into a mutually agreed Defensive Pact, that a swap into Free Religion and Hereditary Rule for a while would help our cause - maybe after our Golden Ages are done and we can cope with a short stint without Representation and Organised Religion?

Other bits:

Is the Settler out of Geneva done, and if so - which city site?

I assume that the Barbarian Horse Archer's gone?

I'm presuming the tech's for Frigates after Gunpowder and Economics? It depends how we approach Russia (friendly or unfriendly) as to whether we really need to ramp up the military (incl. navy) or not.

 

[vranasm]

I very briefly looked at the report yesterday and I have the feeling the biggest question was what to tech?

I think that you could go with Printing Press and then we decide what next.

Chemistry > Guilds in our situation since it offers boost to workshops and frigates, so that I would agree with Cam, but given our land I would get PP first.

edit:
ah as it seems I didn't read correctly yesterday, you teched Guilds already...

 

[woopdeedoo]

Your questions will be answered, kind sirs!

Roosevelt does not have any Gems in his trade screen. They have been traded away. With "rather pleased", I simply mean she went from Cautious to Pleased.

Switching to Free Religion is probably a good idea. With Catherine, we lose (I think) 3~4 relationship points for "heathen religion". The first settler has settled on the icy fish spot. Yes, the barb Horse Archer has been destroyed.

vranasm, I have set our tech to Printing Press and even at 0%, it will land in 7 turns.

I have attached the save for your perusal.I am assembling the Galleons and Caravals in Berlin and Vienna (I think), city East of Prague. Like I said, I would love to get our armies upgraded so that the next person, FiveRings I think, can DoW Churchil and END HIIM!!!

 

[vranasm]

I hoped I am the after you ;-)

I think finishing PP on 0% slider for 7 turns hears great, should get some money for upgrade.

but can't check the save now.