Moonraker

[Cam_H]

I've completed the turnset with England now destroyed. Rampant war weariness through our empire should disappear next turn. I focused mainly on infrastructure. Made our civic switches, but sadly I couldn't get Catherine to consider budging out of Mercantilism. We've got lots of Oil. We've got two sources of Gems! Completed Economics, traded Divine Right (working on fail re. Versailles), researched Chemistry and Scientific Method, and on the way to Biology.

I recorded the bulk of the turnset, which is being uploaded (the usual umms and errs), and I'll include links when they're all up. Two variations; (a.) the computer crashed Civ4 between videos, so I had to replay and replicate a turn, and (b.) I've just made some final tweaks to the citizen management that were not recorded, and canceled the Russian Gems trade also not recorded, but next turn city management will need review in light of removed unhappiness.

 

[vranasm]

I already watched your part 1 video (yeah prefer watching videos then to play SW:TOR beta...it has to tell something I guess).

will look at the save and form some thoughts about me playing the next TS.

 

[vranasm]

checked the videos 2 and 3 and I think we're just too heavy into infra building... How effective those banks will be once we convert cities into building wealth directly?

As for PPP I am laying it now ;-)

City builds

I will try to finish what is close to finishing, but builds over 6 turns i would like to stop.
Abandon Versailles once close to completion.

I see it this way - we need granary, courthouse, forge, lighthouse in cities, nothing else and will switch into wealth and once 100% slider then research.
We can build grocers/harbors after getting factories up.

I am not sure with spreading the religion anymore... I am almost thinking we should cut on it too (yeah I know i changed my mind again). Maybe we could spread it in wave...so no dedicated pump, but we build mish, spread and the city in which it is spread builds another one and then back to wealth/research

Techs

i would like to start aiming towards AL with teching Biology and Communism first (for state property). Would not tech Physics though, but instead go for Rep parts (makes better windmills, watermills), steam power, constitution, corporation and then AL... but that obviously will not be all finished in the TS.

The plan is to switch into slavery once at AL and whip Factories everywhere together with Coal plants (crossing fingers for coal)

Wars, military

don't see happening anything on this front, just switch into full science for awhile

Workers
I would switch mines into windmills at commerce cities.
some farms into workshops (Killer hat guy for example)
and some riverside farms into watermills (Hamburg for example)

Civics

Switch into state property once available, not sure with Free Religion, OR has advantage of building mishes without monasteries (which we can't build anymore)

 

[vranasm]

for reference I had something like this (attachment) in mind with T0 prep.

 

[vranasm]

another thing i noted... the healing doesn't stack, the best takes over, i saw we had there in the stack 2 healers (well the second one looked more like emergency healer so just saying).

and i don't liked the march on our medic too. It works only for him and second it almost guarantess him in tight situation best defense position (he heals quicker then the rest of stack), another thing is that he shouldn't be cavalry, but scout, but that is something other.
I use main military unit healers too, but you should use something obsolete as medic.

That is something for future games ;-).

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for thoughts as always.

For starters, the "errr, ummm" video range;

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4​

War Weariness:

Ahhh ... you're right. I was a bit surprised how brutal it was, but maybe our losses against England were more than I recall, or maybe it's a bit lighter in BtS than Warlords?

Infrastructure:

I can see your point. I went with Banks with the view of Wall Street in Shanghai one day. Many of the cities aren't great yielders, so 'Build Wealth' isn't always a particularly effective option either. I'll leave it up to the three of you to work out whether you want to hang in there with these or not. I do however envisage a time where you might run at 100%/0% and those Banks may be quite handy under rush buying and Universal Suffrage.

Grocers - there are two builds at the moment; York (Holy City) and Prague (commerce hub). I'm not sure of the value particularly of Build Wealth > Factories > Grocers versus Grocers > Factories > Build Wealth. I would have thought that given that we're in Organised Religion at least for now that we should press on with infrastructure that we've earmarked for the future anyway.

One of the builds that you mention that I'm second-guessing now is Courthouses. If we're going into State Property, then the value of these are severely diminished. I'd lose the Courthouse queued in Nottingham in hindsight.

Religion:

I didn't initiate any Missionary builds this turnset, but I can see value in Judaism being spread to all cities in the empire provided we stick with a religion. That's one thing I'd support for the next turnset - Jewish Missionaries.

Wars:

I think any invasion would be a waste of resources now, but we should be wary of getting invaded. I'd keep pumping out Cavalry out of Monte Carlo and keep some stacks spaced along our eastern coastal cities. I probably should have done something more constructive with our navy than congregate boats in Berlin - maybe have them float around 'coast guard style' looking for a small stack of rival Galleons. I've got a Stable build in Hastings that you can lose if you want - I figured that it could also add to the Cav' 'home protection' plan - but it's also a prime candidate for 'Build Wealth'.

March on Medics:

[ Edit ] My misunderstanding! Comment essentially removed. [ /Edit ] I tend to use Chariots as super medics.

Away:

Again - sorry for butting in, but I'm very, very busy over the next couple of weeks, and couldn't hope to set aside 2-3 hours. I'll browse this game when I get the chance however, and give you my thoughts, but please otherwise assume that I'm unable to contribute. Best of luck.

 

[vranasm]

the thing with grocers->factory->wealth or factory->grocer->wealth to me is that once we get to 100% slider the gain from grocer is basically the health and that comes into play once we build factories everywhere.

We want quick transition into real tech rate and the best would probably be going wealth almost everywhere now.

I understand the issue of CH's and have to say that came to my mind while I was typing the PPP and I agree I should probably drop the CH's completely from builds.


As for the medics issue.

march heals only the unit he is on (in BtS 100% I read enough on this matter, not sure with WL, maybe that's something I don't know about), so in tight situation where you get attacked you have bunch of cavs heavily damaged (let's say under 5 str), normal troops would heal in 3T, your medic heals in 1-2T, means next turn your medic is 12 str, but rest of troops around 8, if you're attacked your medic is first in line due to his strength.

Chariots are excelent choice for medic too, but scout works too. You just need H3 and that barely suffices with 1 GG on scout, with charismatic we have probably more leeway here.

Basically medic should be on unit which is almost impossible to get attacked except for situation where you get wiped out to 0...

And it wasn't meant as critique to your playstyle, just something I saw and thought it would be good to bring on table for woop and FR.
I thought that the medic I healer was more like some emergency healer appearing in wrong place at wrong time (or on right place because there was no multiple attack)

I would like to get more hammers at places to make the build wealth a bit more valuable as an option. Another thing is we need to get cities into size because factories are ~5-6 pop whips ;-). With SP there is no reason to not spam workshops and watermills in places where we don't plan cottages.

 

[vranasm]

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/unit_healing.php

citation:
March is generally a useless promotion for your medic units. It is often confused but you should give March to units which you will want to BE healed. For example, send along a Medic I Explorer with your Mech Infantry or March-promoted units and you will have a force which heals quickly when on the move even in enemy territory.

 

[Cam_H]

Prague has merged Great Prophets, and York is the Holy Hindu city, so I'd be looking for commerce multipliers from these two cities from the passive they provide as soon as practical.

Maybe shaving a turn off Communism warrants more 'Build Wealth' and fewer Banks in some cities for now - but as before, cities producing say 10 converted into 10 is unlikely to have a large impact on anything, and I'd rather just ensure that we get Wall Street up when we can by having enough Banks up. Again, happy for the roster to work out your approach.

On the super-medic, sorry, my misunderstanding - I thought you were referring to the Morale promotion. I see that unit has both Morale and March, and I agree with you that something like Flanking would have been better than March.

 

[vranasm]

I guess we could check the number of banks needed for the WS and if we already met it then abandon more banks.

We are relatively far away from WS though (I think it is opened by corporations? then finish Bio, Comm, Const, Corp is the order -> ~15 turns?)

I guess we build it in Shanghai and thus the "need" for more jewish mishes... I saw that we need 6(7?) cities in the north and some south to populate with jews... London looked like good candidate for the upper part.
Not sure in the south.

There is option for spreading overseas :-D the galleons don't have much to do anyway ;-), but that is more like "showing off".

 

[woopdeedoo]

Very nice. Good job destroying England! I guess all we need to do now is get the tech we need to start building a spaceship...

 

[vranasm]

hmm waiting for some comments on the PPP.... at least for some "green light" ;-).

Maybe FR will add something ;-).

 

[woopdeedoo]

hmm waiting for some comments on the PPP.... at least for some "green light" ;-).

Maybe FR will add something ;-).

Apologies. Missed the post. Will have a look at the save, your post and comment soon.

[EDIT] Your PPP looks perfectly fine to me. Time to ramp up our tech and shoot for the stars... so to speak. Why won't you go for the free GS with Physics, though?[/EDIT]

 

[Cam_H]

I can see where vranasm is coming from re. Banks ... we do only need one more to qualify for Wall Street, but I'd nonetheless prefer to see out; Amsterdam (2 turns to completion), Chengdu (8 turns but lots of cottages), Nanjing (6 turns and again lots of cottages), and Munich (Holy city needing shrine, cottages, 4 turns to completion). If the rest of the roster wanted to abandon Bank progress in Killer Hat Guy and Geneva, then that's OK with me.

I can see us running at around 80%-90% with enough cities on 'Build Wealth', but there will be times where core cities won't be 'Building Wealth' (Factories, Coal Plants, Grocers, Laboratories, SS Parts, units?) and I'd suggest that these Banks will help to offset the cost of moving out of 'Build Wealth', allowing us to maintain a reasonable rate while core cities are working on other stuff.

I'd encourage further spread of Judaism - and 'yes' - why not try overseas as an experiment?

 

[vranasm]

I think I maybe confused you too much Cam... I indeed plan to finish builds due in 6t and less... not sure with the Chengdu, but could look into it again on yours special demand ;-). (I think I prepared t0-prep save in some of the post after PPP, so check it I will go from there probably and I think I prepared the build wealths already there)

I hope I will make out of Killer Hat city nice productive city with those 4 farms converted into workshops. That city has enough sea food ;-).

Still waiting for FR... I could play tonight, but no hurry, everyone has to get fair chance for comments (well I would like to play tomorrow evening latest though!).

 

[vranasm]

About the physics. I am the meaning we need communism and factories more.

Actually I am really surprised we didn't went for Physics and bulb 2/3 of cost of Biology with the free GS ;-).

At this point of the game the GP's are good only for GA's anyway.

You have to understand this isn't clearcut of course. But that is my feeling. Physics opens Electricity though (another good tech for us - windmills, watermills get boost).

 

[Cam_H]

I think that Biology and Communism are probably the most advantageous, but it's a good suggestion on bulbing Biology with the free Great Scientist from Physics

... actually still could be done with 2400 to go on Biology!

I'd be in no desperate hurry to get to Corporation and obsolete The Great Lighthouse (despite the world-wide Mercantilism situation!), and therefore after Phys/Comm/Bio I'd consider Electricity for the points vranasm has just made, then hopefully Roos will trade us Replaceable Parts, then we can go after Steam Power. I am unsure if we have enough interest in Rifling or Democracy to place either in our tech' order before Assembly Line (?).

Our war with England canceled our Defensive Pact with Russia - I'm not sure if there's interest in renewing it. Catherine's also got 8/turn free if we wanted to make a resource trade. As before - please feel free to cancel that Courthouse in Nottingham in light of pending State Property.

 

[vranasm]

interesting thought with going physics now, bulb bio, then communism ;-).

I don't think we could get RP anytime soon. Not sure with the mechanics, but I have the feeling that monopoly techs don't get traded until at least 2 "people" know them.

RP are obviously strong for us too ;-) together with Electricity.

Yeah I agree leave Corp just before AL. Too bad we don't get levees here ;-) would be good to switch into slavery and do some slaving.

What you think about observatories? they obviously will help us in most cities. I actually like to build them in every city in space race, but usually slave them, thus I didn't mention them yet.

 

[FiveRings]

It's a pity that you'll deprive us of one half of the expert moves, Cam, and so leave us again with only one string of ggod moves as opposed to two strings of so-so - or subpar, to use V's experession - moves! Maybe we should drag it till after Christmas?!

Thanks for the very insightful comments regarding the medic promotion, V! I guess both the wrong promotion to "on-the-move" and from chariot to modern units were my fault - when I think how glad I was that I can get the upgrading for free...

I don't feel I can add to what has been discussed already, but would like to support Cam's idea of banks providing for some more flexiblity tahn simply wealth, and overweighing in cases of citiesith cottages and speacial gold-generating specifics (besides, where you can't use all the cottaged cities for science generation, those that can't be used for that might very well produce more gold based on markets and banks than on wealth building, it seems). I'd consider your approach the correct one with regard to cities taht don'thave cottages already, ie, build factories, then wealth rather tan build banks, but don't see the need for this where cottages are already available and abundant.

With SP being high on our list (and for most of the time where we have recourse to it, as I don't think we'll switch to Environmentalism and for big empires it seems to overweigh the FM, too) I don't see why we can't arrange for a couple more cities on the other continent where this doesn't jeopardize our victory requirement . I feel we can also settle two more spots within our own territory: by the gold mine to the East of Shanghai and right on top of the oil to the Southe of Shanghai. As we also seem to expect a lot more construction in our cities, it seems worthy of considering the spread of religions (actually, here again having banks in cities that continue to produce units and missionaries seems quite appealing as opposed to cities producing nothing else but gold...) while we keep with OR.

I also like Cam's idea of using galleons to gather early info about shipbuilding and army concentration on the other continent, as we should have ample time to get them back to prepare an invasion, which by the variant rules seems under a thick question mark. Spreading Judaism to Cathy and giving her a city on her own continent against conversion might bring a handful of gpt, too... additionally safeguarding the variant victory....

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

Thanks again for bringing the Biology-bulb idea to the table - I'm 'all for' taking that path if you're keen.

If you wanted to go back to Slavery, that's fine - there are only a few cities that might be affected by moving out of Caste (e.g. London has massive food to support specialists) although I think that Slavery will largely help new and developing cities for a while. The only thing to watch is that the five turn delay to the following switch doesn't interfere with our desire to flip into State Property.

I'm good with Observatories > Laboratories in high commerce (+25% x2) and/or production (prerequisite to Lab's for SS parts) cities.​

FiveRings,

Thanks for all of your thoughts - the comma key's working again!

I don't know about "expert" ... too many Banks, no Jewish Missionaries for new cities, etc.! I'd be quite happy for the three of you to quickly play it out rather than specifically wait for me. I just can't commit three-four hours to do another turnset until around the 9th of December but will follow the game when I can.

I'm sure you've 'got' this, but just to be 'crystal'; vranasm is championing a position where through 'Build Wealth' the commerce slider will be somewhere around 90% - 10%, as will be almost entirely derived from rather than (merged Prophets and Shrine income being exceptions). Because the -slider is empire-wide rather than city-specific, we should be already able to run break-even at around 90% and 10% with enough 'Build Wealth', and therefore at 10% the value of Banks in cities other than Prague (Prophets), Shanghai (Shrine), and York (Shrine), (and Munich if we use a Prophet on the Christian Shrine) is severely diminished. Nonetheless there will be times when core cities won't be using 'Build Wealth', and the slider may drop to 'say' 50% and 50% when the Banks can be of some use. Apologies if this was already clear to you (as I think it was), but no harm I guess in just clarifying it.

I've got no issue with the two new cities if you want them.

As before, a lot of the plans regarding invading Russia 'went out the door' when Catherine was willing to sign the defensive pact and appease our variant, so we've got a fair sized navy with not much to do other than act as early warning of invasion. I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility of a Tokugawa DoW, with him aiming to drop a small and outdated stack of units such as Knights somewhere that we're vulnerable, so I'd make preparations for that by keeping on with the Cav's and spreading them around our empire.

Gifting a junk city to Catherine was proposed largely to appease her to the point of her being willing to sign a defensive pact, but that motivation is now moot. Whether the roster wants to pursue it for other reasons is up to you.​