Moonraker

[FiveRings]

Thanks for doing the nitty-gritty job, W!

I think the options and the general direction have been outlined, and I don't think competent to add any. I'd rather agree with Cam that having more red faces seems bigger cost than having Cathy pump cannons, but where her whims might take her, I don't think anyone can tell... So, if we go Emancipation, give her the peace tech, if we are going to postpone our getting state-of-art state(wo)manship, then give her Steel.

I don't very well understand why we should keep GPs hanging around till the age of spaceships. The early hammers and bulbs seem heavier and brighter.

Last, but not least: navy techs might also be a good way to go at some point, especially that destroyers come with oil wells, IIRC.

V, I sure trust you that you'd get it all the best way you can figure out, and that will definitely be better than what I'd do, for sure. So no need for a t0 save to do checking, but it would be very good to see how you actually manage the cities. Isn't it possible to make saves every couple of turns and then send them to me thru the Forum email (I am not sure attachments are allowed, though, so why don't you just try after you get T1, and if it works, and is not too much of a bother, send me a couple more saves from your TS, please?) Thank you for any effort and time invested in this!

 

[vranasm]

the point with bulbs is that the beakers gained with bulb are fixed (it's something like 1500+3xnumber of citizens), so in early game it means 1 GP = 1 tech
this late in game you bulb like 1/5 of the cost?

Golden age with such big empire as we have can bring us from 2.4k bpt to ~4k bpt (or from 3k to 5k depending on the phase we start the GA), 1.6k bpt difference produced over 8(12) turns... so basically for cost of 3 GP bulbs we get actually 8 "bulbs"

end game golden ages are better then bulbs.

Settling is greatly inferior with the timetable (to produce 1.6k bpt or 2.33x 1.6k bpt with settled GS which produces ~30 bpt is matter of 50+ turns first case, ~130+ turns 2nd case)

I will think about ways to produce some more saves on the way (I actually produced some youtube videos as Cam, but not sure if I will find mood to step into the river again :-D)...

One think I noticed yesterday when I was going through cities that I switched scientists to engineers in most cities. Then I was thinking wth, why I did this? Because it was semiautomatic... and then I found out...

The engineer specs are stronger then GS specs right now, since they produce 2H multiplied by 100% to 4H, compared to 3 bpt from scientist.

Not sure if I will play this evening or tomorrow. We have Christmas party today so not sure at what time I get home.

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks, V! Very good insight, indeed!

One thing more to ask then: if we have 3 GPs ready to initiate a GA, should we wait for the time where we start building the spaceship?

BTW, I have played somewhat with the Eng- vs - Sc - vs - Merch Specialists during my last TS. Things are not as clearcut, as they seem. The important thing, I think, is to get the OVERALL amount (the sum) of bpts and gpts from a particular combination. Strange as it might seem, I was able to get a better max replacing the Eng Specialists you have already slated in. This is a lot of MM, so I don't push for it: just an observation that might come handy. And again: this relates only to a situation where there's enough flexibility, not a situation where the cities are fixed, from which one has to get enough gpts or bpts to stay afloat...

 

[vranasm]

you're right that the target is more gpt+bpt overall.

to me the hammers are more flexible wealth/research/infra. In cities where we will build buildings scientists are strictly inferior.

To me it seems easier to have everything on engs and switch cities from wealth to research with surplus gpt, but that is really tough to quantify

 

[vranasm]

The round is played

I start with preparing T0 save ;-)
I decided not to give away any techs for rifles...it is probably 1T tech for us anyway.

Radio is home

Spoiler :

We got offer for rifling MS and 1100 gold... I decide that I won't give this big amount of money to Roos

Spoiler :

Offer for defensive pact by Cathy... even if tempting, I decided against it

Spoiler :

Statue of Liberty is home

Spoiler :

We popped GE from berlin

Spoiler :

we could start GA, but I think we could wait a bit

I decided to whip Broadway for 5 pops. It is controversial decision, but my reasoning is that the 5 citizens are basically not great (some coast, science spec and some PH) and the increased happy cap is important at some cities.

Spoiler :

And Broadway is home

Spoiler :

And computers are home

Spoiler :

another round of hammer investments is in order

There comes dilemma about techs, I think we didn't discuss this properly in the PPP phase... so I choose Rifling and then RR and arty probably

Rifles are home

Spoiler :

i will just state that the governor in Warlords is much much much worse then the one in BtS... in bts at this phase I would have probably turned on governor and let him do his job... not so much here

With a little MM (switching wealth to research) I get RR to 1T

Spoiler :

next turn I will have to switch a little bit into the wealth back

If anyone will check the saves... in the T7 save we have RR in 1T and couple of workers on mines to get RR there asap... such thing I won't time „perfectly“ in normal games since I play more quickly, but surely with the slow play of SG can afford this thinking.
Toku wants to break OB with Roos...not acceptable

Spoiler :

Rock'n'Roll is home

Spoiler :

and wall street in shanghai :-D

i whipped Eiffel Tower for 7 pop in Hamburg reasoning being... hmm I just wanted to finish ET in my TS ;-)
we lost only some specs and 2 grass workshops but have strong food to quickly regrow.

Spoiler :

We start to have big happy cap and will have to think a bit about the health, but the cities are already so big that I don't consider health big issue and it will eventually fix when we touch Genetics.

We start to peak with bpt... 2.8k

Spoiler :

maybe next TS should start the GA

Arty is home

Spoiler :

I will prequeue rocketry and do final visit of all cities before uploading to forum

Oh and of course Eiffel tower is home

Spoiler :

Workers are mostly spreading railroads for quicker movement. I built couple more units from Monte Carlo, some infantries now

The Hugo T0-9.zip contains saves for almost every turn I played.

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

Thanks for the turnset and the highly pictorial report! Really great to get all of those WoWs - shame that we can't get any decent or resources for Hit Singles or Musicals. Still, they should keep us Emancipation-proof for a while yet.

Really not a great deal to add ... York is missing that Market but at only +7/turn it's a small matter, and I'd propose that we consider queuing up Industrialism for Aluminum reveal. I'm not desperate to get out of Organised Religion, but Free Religion would extend that small bonus.

The situation's interesting - we need four Great People for the Golden Age after the currently available one: Fusion's Great Engineer is likely for us but it's late in the game, London's soon to pop any of a Great Engineer / Great Scientist / Great Prophet, Hamburg's not too far behind with a Great Engineer most likely, while Berlin could go a number of ways but a Great Merchant would be the most likely there. We could still think about shifting these cities' specialists around (esp. with swap into Caste) to generate this last Golden Age, but I acknowledge that we have a high chance of at least two of the required four being Great Engineers. Anyway - food for thought.

btw ... Catherine's PowerChart should have Roosevelt a little on edge.

 

[vranasm]

oops that market slipped my mind...

had open the previous page to get everything correctly, especially those builds... and the market just slipped, my bad.

as for the GA... I am here a bit on the FR side asking "why wait 40 more turns?", we could get now pretty deep jump in the tech tree with the golden age.

of course the golden age at the end can quicken the builds ;-)

tough to judge what is better. We have a lot production centers should be fun to finish the race.

I almost think you will finish this in next 3 TS's.

 

[Cam_H]

Just for confirmation;

vranasm
FiveRings << Up
Cam_H << On Deck
woopdeedoo​

I tend to agree that the game should be somewhere near 'winnable' in 40 or so turns provided something unexpected doesn't appear out of the ether. If it was BtS, I suspect the AI could be active in preventing our victory, but Warlords doesn't quite have the same mechanism (in my experience at any rate).

 

[FiveRings]

Hi, guys!

Just checking in: should be able to see the save this evening and suggest a PPP outline (mainly tech sequence, I guess).

V, does "vranasm" mean "worldwonderbuilder" in Czech?!

Thanks for the great progress and the additional saves, I'll be very happy to take a look at them, actually shadow-play your TS

 

[woopdeedoo]

Good Job! Looks very good. I reckon we are almost there guys! I don't have a problem with a GA now. I guess we can use future GPs to bulb or whatever. Good stuff...

 

[vranasm]

Hi, guys!

Just checking in: should be able to see the save this evening and suggest a PPP outline (mainly tech sequence, I guess).

V, does "vranasm" mean "worldwonderbuilder" in Czech?!

Thanks for the great progress and the additional saves, I'll be very happy to take a look at them, actually shadow-play your TS

hehe , the situation was nicely set up from woops.

well the Broadway whip was borderline defendable (there was some cities with happy issues and the cost was 5 citizens which were mostly useless)
the Eifflel Tower... well under normal circumstance I would never do this... I just wanted to have the ET finished in my TS, which is undefendable and you all are very nice to me ;-)

wish you luck with the shadow... I have sit on it for ~2.5 hours... I think it would be better if you invest the same time into progressing further though
clicking through each city (with 33 cities) and stare at each of them for ~5-10 secs is certainly demanding.

 

[FiveRings]

Well, it really takes a long time now, even to go thru the situ superfluously... What is most striking for me though, is that the AIs still have some techs that are not researched by us!?

Anyway,

1. techwise: Rock (now)> Sats>beeline to Robo (Ind should come in on the way). The idea is to get the Elevator which might help.
2. civicwise: continue for a couple of moves with Slavery (in addition to the slated buildings there are a couple of Unis and markets (yeah, the one in York, although I really don't understand very well what all the fuss is about..) Then change into FR (I'd think again about a double switch to Caste and Pacifism instead, as it seems VERY tempting; what do you say?)
3. productionwise: see above. I see some minor improvements in changing the EngSpecs into ScSpecs, but guess the idea is to get GrEng, which, to my mind, shouldn't be much better than getting GrSc, so I might play with it. I kind of think that MC could better get the Penta than continue pushing Infants.
4. GP-wise: will lower efficiency, but try to get a GrMerch (the 4th we lack, as we seem to own Sc, Eng and Art GPs), but also a GrPriest - they don't seem to be much below the others in what they pump at this stage and could get us an additional opportunity to get the GA. In combo with the Caste+Pacif = one additional GA?!
5. worker-wise: will do the RR and, hopefully Alu mining and Oil drilling.
6. diplo-wise: will trade the Combustion with Roose if he decides to let loose - is it the monopoly on it that makes him so stingy?! - even for Physics, if needed.
7. wonder-wise: see Penta above. I wonder about the Scotland and the benefits of placing a couple of spies onto our Alu mine in the future.

Now, that I have ignominously lost the Vanilla Deity GOTM (space defeat in the mid-1900, MM didn't let me win the Diplo), I might make my TS this evening, if there are no serious objections to my sort-of-PPP.

A reminder: I won't be able to play through the beginning of 2012 - after this TS - but will definitely visit an Internet cafe to keep up to speed.

BTW, so that I don't forget: a very pleasant holiday season, and a happy New Year to you, guys!

 

[vranasm]

I wouldn't bother with Unis...they offer 25% for big hammers, you could probably move our peak a bit, but nothing serious and most important you will block the queue from building wealth/research

not sure with the tech path myself, would have to check, but I guess that in Warlords Space Elevator doesn't suck the same way as in BtS as I saw it mentioned (it actually is on space techs path)

not sure about the obsession with Pentagon ;-) we don't plan warring and again...it blocks our queue.

combustion is on our path from what I remember, but will be costly to get through trades... check the numbers we need to selftech it (not sure the number) if it is ~3-4 turns... I wouldn't speed AI's at all.

At this point of the game with around 3k beakers per turn it feels wrong to feed AI's

 

[Cam_H]

I would go Industrialism immediately. Securing Aluminum will assist with the Apollo Project construction (aside from a lot of other stuff) from Rocketry afterward.

I think the idea is worth at least consideration given that London and Hamburg are so close, and Berlin's capable of possibly two Great People in addition to the Fusion Great Engineer. If we do pop at least two Great Engineers, then the Space Elevator could be a possibility rather than the hypothetical next Golden Age after our currently available Golden Age.

We should determine a foreign policy, which in my view would be to stay out of every war and refuse every demand for DoWs or trade route cancellations.

I'd also by-pass The Pentagon. We're just racing to get the Spaceship done with as few hold-ups as possible.

... and preliminary to you too!

 

[vranasm]

unlike real life US we can pretend the other continent doesn't exist.

We have oil, we have coal, we hopefully have aluminium... and even if we don't...we probably won't need it. The recent G-Minor 133 learned me a thing about building SS without alu.

in the end it's just yet another 50% multiplier in situation where we already have at some cities over 100%...

 

[FiveRings]

TS finished:
1750 (t0)
Switch from Rock to Ind
Wondered why we keep the 3 GPs but left them live on
Wondered whether the many workers building RR on Workshops were doing this - to no benefit - or building RR
Forgot to check whether York's market could be started right away

1755 (t1)
York ... you know

1760 (t2)
York back to wealth
Cologne started lib

1765 (t3)
Industrialism > Rocketry
3 Alu on our continent. Started mining/roading two of them (the one by Beijing was left for later still being mined)
Orlov: lab>CH

1770 (t4)
Cologne back to research

1775 (t5)
Rocketry > beeline to Robotics (Stearway to Heaven)
Steel Jaw starts Apollo (13 t)
Alu in, 3 turns of Apollo out (why only 30% instead of 50% promised)
Great Merchant also in - now there are four of those big guys sitting around...

1780 (t6)
Combustion>Plastics
Orlov: CH>research

1785 (t7)
MC switches the line from Infantry to SAM infantry

1790 (t8)
Le Chiffre: aqueduct (1t)

1795 (t9)
Plastics>Robotics
Roose cancels deal
Cath wants Physics. I think hard then decide you'll need some emotions, so: No!
Still, I like her ...hair... so treat her some seafood dinner. Get only 4 gpt in return. Oh, my...

Red faces want emancipation. I decide it might be better to whip the Elevator before getting democratic, we are long way from 1860, Sid!

1180 (t10)
Warwick: lib
Roose switches to US and SP
TS over

Meanwhile, quite a lot hammer-doubling and connecting by RR. Also, one oil well is up, the other under construction.
Toku still annoyed, Cath - cautious (I guess, that dinner...). None of them WHEOOHR, though.

Save is below, but before that: I do suggest to get to emancipation and Pacifism after whipping the Elevator. Here are the cities that are within 35 turns (if double speed) from getting a GP (turns below are not halved):

Berlin (2t) - E=37%, M=32%, A=15%, Sc=14%
Hamburg (10t) - E=39%, M=29%, Sc=15%, Pr=2%
Guangzhou (21t) - A=66%, E=23%, Sc=7%, M=2%
Prague (24t) - Sc=53%, E=32%, Pr=13%
MC (26t) - E=62%, Sc=26%, Art=10%
Killer (29t) - Sc=52%, E=47%
York (37t) - Pr=77%, E=22%
London (47t) - E=38%, Sc=37%, Pr=12%, M=12%.
Chengdu (52 t) - E=75%, Sc=23%, M=1%

Also:
Steel Jaw (78t, but acceleration possible) - Eng=65%, Sc=16%,Art=12%, Merch=6%
Le Chiffre (85t, but acceleration possible)- E=79%, M=18%, Sc=2%
Beijing (95t, but acceleration possible) - Merc=45%, E=20%,A=17%, Pr=14%, Sc=2%

Good luck, Cam!

 

[vranasm]

the 30% drop is logical... you add 50% to 100% modifier

you multiply your hammers not decreasing hammer cost thus 50% increase in hammers means actually 66% cost of building. if you add 50% to already 100% the move is even lesser.

 

[Cam_H]

OK - got it. Nice work FiveRings.

In terms of a PPP;

Civics:

I think it's time to say 'bye' to Organised Religion. We're hardly got any buildings going, and probably won't have too many more for the rest of the game.

I see two different scenarios for consideration:

Berlin pops a Great Engineer (@37%)

We use the new Great Engineer with sleeping Cai Lun for a hurry on the Space Elevator. This still leaves us with three Great People of different types to fire off the Golden Age once we're into building SS Casings and SS Thrusters. We swap into Free Religion and Emancipation and run the game out, largely unconcerned with future Great People.

Berlin pops something other than a Great Engineer

We use Cai Lun on The Space Elevator (Beijing?), and build the remainder 'naturally'. We'll get a Great Engineer from Fusion, which means we'll still need two more for another Golden Age. With a swap into Caste-Pacifism, we can manipulate the specialists to improve our chances of getting out two more Great People out of Hamburg and one of Berlin / Prague / Killer Hat Guy for a follow up Golden Age for the final turns. This may be more effort than it's worth, and may only shave a couple of turns off the finish even if we get the right Great Person mix.​

I'm not that fussed about Labour civics if we're not going into Caste with the view of getting out yet another Golden Age. I can live with either Slavery or Emancipation. If we stick with Slavery, then I'm inclined to 'deal with' the few cities we have with unhappiness.

Technology Path

I understand it's Robotics > Satellites > Fusion bee-line > Ecology + Genetics, but if we're at all concerned with combating , then Genetics does provide that passive +3.

Military

I'd like to see Monte Carlo continue to churn out units, which will essentially be Mech' Infantry in a few turns. I see no great value in keeping obsolete pre-Gunpowder units, and I propose that we go through the empire and erase pretty well everything that isn't Gunpowder+ (albeit ensuring that every city has 'some' garrison).

Diplomacy

As per earlier, I'd like to stay out of any wars, and don't want to cancel deals with anyone. I think that we're pretty safe.

Schedule

Once again 'real life' timing isn't great. I'll probably be looking at Friday-Saturday.

Thoughts?

 

[vranasm]

well I wouldn't bother yourself with moving units around, deleting old ones etc. etc. it's just "useless" micro for your already tight schedule.
Units can be always upgraded and we can have so much money through 1-2 turns on 0% if WHEEORN shows up that I don't see really any issue with outdated units.

I am really surprised FR didn't start the GA , but I think it was somewhat "gray zone" regarding his TS... so feel free to start it right after checking the next GP.

I wouldn't panic with health, from what I remember we were at max useful tiles/engineers in most cities even with unhealth (would have to check new save though), but genetics is of course "fine".

Big question is if we tech for space techs on max wealth+research and then build all parts in parallel (we have plenty of production centers) or if we start builds on parts right at the time we get the tech.
I usually do the latter, but iggy (great SS player) usually does the former...
I will leave this open for your judgement Cam.

 

[woopdeedoo]

As far as I can tell, this guy is pretty much in the bag. Everything you pointed out is fine. From here on out, it *should* be plain sailing