Morality and the war on terror

Mott1

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Whether out of sheer ignorance or vile dishonesty the PC left enjoys nothing more than to demonise the U.S. and the West.
The following are the assertations of a very vocal, but very misguided PCist:
let's never forget while we all vilify and demonise this man[al-Zarqawi] and his cause - that he has not been responsible for as much destruction - and not as many deaths - as US Imperial Aggression has done, all over the Middle East.

Note here how he labels the U.S. war on Iraq and Ahfganistan an "Imperial Aggression", and that the U.S. has caused more death and destruction then this misunderstood and vicitimized terrorist al-Zarqawi.
Our PC friend here purposely omits the moral equation. The civilian casualties inflicted by the U.S./coalition war were not in any way deliberate, while the "poor" terrorist al-Zarqawi's full intention was to target and murder civilians.
He also seems to forget the Islamic terrorist attack on 9/11 that killed over 3,000 innocent civilians, the suicide attack on the U.S.S. Cole that killed 17 sailors, the terrorist bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya that killed over 200 innocents and injured 4,000 more, the list goes on.
This U.S. "Imperial aggression" is merely the long awaited response to the many many Islamic terrorist attacks that have gone unanswered for far too long.

I just said there are many countries around the world who maintain prosperity and security for their citizens, without vandalising other, weaker nations and therefore creating terrorist monsters such as this thread is concerned with. That's all. Have a nice day

The typical PC cliche: "The U.S. created the Islamic terrorists".
Is there any truth or logic in this absurd accusation? Let us analyse this claim.

-The U.S. aided Muslim Ahfganistan to successfully repel the Soviet invasion.
How does this translate to the U.S. creating Muslim terrorists and Muslim anger toward the U.S. and the West?
Would it not be logical to deduce that U.S. aid would have increased favorable Muslim sentiment toward the U.S.?

-The U.S. defended Bosnian Muslims from Serbian aggression.
Again, how does this constitute Muslim animosity towards the U.S.?

-The U.S. and coalition forces come to the defence of Kuwait (a small, weaker Muslim nation) from the invasion and "vandalisation" of Iraq.
Does this U.S. aid create monsters such as Osama bin Laden and al-Zarqawi?
If you apply a little logic, the answer is no.


Mr. PC then confidantly asks:

If I'm so wrong, what is it that motivates him[terrorists] then?

MobBoss hits the nail on the head:

As an offhand guess I would say Islam-faschism.

Islam creates Muslim terrorists. These terrorist acts are not only justified but are divinely mandated by the Islamic doctrine.
The proof is in the Quran and the Hadith, all one must do is read them.
Its time we start calling a spade a spade without the fear of offending Muslim sensitiveties.
Terrorism is a crime motivated by an ideology. Islamic terrorism is a crime of faith. The Muslim terrorists are Islamic to the core.

It is the PC and Muslim apologist view that Islam is certainly not the problem, they just can't understand that the problem is within Islam and will not go away, or be neutralized, until this fact is recognized.
I am not saying that every Muslim iis the problem, many who identify themselves as Muslims have only a glancing acquaintance with and interest in the Islamic doctrine.
Many shy away from admitting the deep crises in Islam today on the pretext that it will demoralize and anger the moderate Muslims. If they are genuine moderates, there is no reason why this should happen.
If any moderate Islam project is to succeed, it will only do so by identifying the elements in the Islam doctrine that give rise to violence and terrorism, they must work in whatever way possible to change the Muslim understanding of those elements so that jihad recruiters can no longer convince disillusioned young men to join them by appealing to their desire to live out "pure Islam"
If moderate Muslims were to do this, would they succeed in changing millions of Muslims understanding of Islam? that is an open question, however it has no chance of happening unless they acknowledge why Islam creates people like Osama bin Laden and al-Zarqwai.

Moderator Action: Please attribute your quotes to the people they're from, given that they're from other threads. You can do this by adding =Poster Name right after Quote in the first Quote tag. - The Yankee
 
I don't think the mods can touch him he's merely expressing an opinion, ok it's very partisan but I've seen much more biased posts.

I personally think that most of the US has no real understanding of why the fundemetalists despise them so much, I'm also pretty sure they often don't want or need to understand why they feel the way the do, or even worse simply don't care. The US will learn of it's own accord that tact and diplomacy are better than oil on the fire, perhaps they already have we live in hope. Imperialist is apt, the US acts like England of the 18th/19th century little heeding that it is the 21st and the rules are different.
 
To think that we (as the West) have nothing to do at all with the current state of world affairs and international terrorism (faith-based or not) is simply ludicrous. It's a lot easier to live in a black & white world where the bad guys became bad by themselves and then decided to take it out on us, the good guys. The good old head-in-the-sand defense. Priceless.
 
And this marks the end of my participitation in this poor excuse for a thread.

C~G said:
Let the mods sort him out.

Looks like I have offended the PC board jockeys. That really was not my intention, if you disagree with me then perhaps you should exercise a little patience and tolerance and state your reasons why.
Popping in here solely to ridicule does not justify your anger.
 
De Lorimier said:
To think that we (as the West) have nothing to do at all with the current state of world affairs and international terrorism (faith-based or not) is simply ludicrous.

Nowhere in my post have I claimed that.
The grievances other nations have with the U.S., be they misguided or ligitimate, does not justify terrorism.

It's a lot easier to live in a black & white world where the bad guys became bad by themselves and then decided to take it out on us, the good guys. The good old head-in-the-sand defense. Priceless.

Again, seeing the world in black and white, good or bad is not the premise of my post. What I am stating is that Islam is the root cause of Islamic terrorism, and the only way that we can begin to counter it is by first acknowledging that truth.
I think you can appreciate how much universalism and equality matter to people who are deeply committed to the spirit of democracy, however you must understand how deeply and profoundly the Islamic doctrine violates these principles, in its emphasis on tribal solidarity.
 
Mott1 said:
Nowhere in my post have I claimed that.
The grievances other nations have with the U.S., be they misguided or ligitimate, does not justify terrorism.
Of course not, but they are a major cause of terrorism, nonetheless.

Bush keeps saying that this is a war for hearts and minds.

Wise words.
 
Sadly he probably never wrote them, and even more sadly it would take a shrewder politician to understand what they mean.
 
Sidhe said:
Sadly he probably never wrote them, and even more sadly it would take a shrewder politician to understand what they mean.
Bush isn't always wrong, Sidhe. ;)
 
MobBoss said:
You say this tongue-in-cheek with a wink and a nod, but there is truth in it as well.
Well, I'm completely serious. Don't get me wrong, I think Bush is doing a poor job as president, but has on a number of occasions made the right decision.
 
Perfection said:
Well, I'm completely serious. Don't get me wrong, I think Bush is doing a poor job as president, but has on a number of occasions made the right decision.

Fair enough and I am only different from you in that I think he has made more right decisions in wrong ones.

I also tend to think history will be far more forgiving of him than people currently think.
 
Perfection said:
Well, I'm completely serious. Don't get me wrong, I think Bush is doing a poor job as president, but has on a number of occasions made the right decision.

well agreed, but Bush is not the man at least IMO to implement good decisions effectively or to follow them up well I should say. People like Gorbachev and dare I say it Raegan before he went senile are men who can win hearts and minds of their people and others. It's more important to win the hearts and minds of your enemies than your own people, at least if there is to be peace and understanding in the Middle East or am I being naive?
 
Mott1 said:
Looks like I have offended the PC board jockeys.
I'm pretty sure you see term "PC" somehow negative so I see it as slanderous term coming from you.
Did you happen to check to who's post the second of your quotations is reply to? It's for my post, that's why I recognised it immediately from whom it was.
Mott1 said:
That really was not my intention, if you disagree with me then perhaps you should exercise a little patience and tolerance and state your reasons why.
I don't have to. At this point I only can disagree about the way you make your point come across. It's abusive, harsh and rude way of showing your opinion.
You simply couldn't resist quoting a well known forum members post, trying to make him look foolish, did you?
Mott1 said:
Popping in here solely to ridicule does not justify your anger.
The main problem for me with you came right away with this:
Mott1 said:
Whether out of sheer ignorance or vile dishonesty the PC left enjoys nothing more than to demonise the U.S. and the West.
The following are the assertations of a very vocal, but very misguided PCist
There's no excuse for it. You could have found other ways to create this thread but didn't. You took the personal route and came to look for fight.
You may have to go look some other place than this because at least when it comes to me, I'm not falling into the trap.
One of the main reasons being I'm not really PC.

I could start to call you a "PC Warrior" which attacks everything that even remotedly sounds like PC to him. For some PC has become a curse word just like liberal, socialist or whatever that can be used to describe these "weak" and "pasifistic" types of people that seem to protect the values and cultures of other people, dangering what we call "the west".
Rest of your post is the same old story about Islam and your consideration that it's very nature is about creating terrorists. However this part of your post have some parts that might create discussion but I'm pretty sure into what kind of contest this thread turns into if some people actually start to answer some of your points which have been discussed in this forum also before.

I think I said what needs to be said so others can learn when they create threads like these.
If someone wants to join this go ahead, I rather go see the World Cup from TV.

Goodbye.
 
I agree C~G. You'll note no one needs to reply to the OP, he's done enough damage to his credibility on his own, but that did need to be said.:)
 
MobBoss said:
Fair enough and I am only different from you in that I think he has made more right decisions in wrong ones.

I'd agree w/ Perfection. As you know, I'm pretty hard on Bush as well. But, I can credit him for some correct decisions. For instance, while I think Iraq is a joke and a borderline deception, I think the decision to take out the Taliban was 100% correct. Also, I agree w/ improving our approach on illegal immigration.

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Now, toward the general discussion point that the thead has headed... the whole issue of the rise of Fundamentalism is largely of our own making. Much of the dogma, the inspiration of the Islamic Fundie terrorists comes from Iran and the touchstone in Iran is the rise of the Ayotollah, the deposition of the Shah. The Shah existed only because the US deposed a democratic govt. that the US did not like. Its an interesting path.
 
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