More Alternate Leaders?

[Patine]

The Mauryans weren't "Indian" by that standard and Chandragupta speaks Sanskrit I believe. Granted, if we wanted a perfect one-to-one then Ashoka really fills the space in modern Indian culture that Olga does in Russian culture, not Chandragupta. But perfect parallels don't exist in history, and going back past a certain point no culture looks the same as its later incarnations. That, in fact, is kind of the point of having an Occitan-speaking leader for England.

Indian is used by many historians as a "regional" identity of peoples, languages, cultures, and religions of South Asia, which have many common unifying themes. Even today, there is no single ethnicity or culture called "Indian," and Hindi, while viewed as a lingua franca for practical purposes is spoken alongside regional languages, even today. The British unified India politically, and "Indian," as a nationality, is an artificial legal construct like "American," "Canadian," or "Australian." Comparing "Russian," "Ukrainian," Belarussian," "Ruthenian," and "Rusyn," to the old Kievan Rus' is not even REMOTELY the same comparison AT ALL.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

"Wearing the crown alone" wasn't my position, AT ALL. I don't even know where you got that from. Certainly not from reading MY post...

You didn't read my post either, because I didn't say wearing the crown "alone."

Indian is used by many historians as a "regional" identity of peoples, languages, cultures, and religions of South Asia, which have many common unifying themes. Even today, there is no single ethnicity or culture called "Indian," and Hindi, while viewed as a lingua franca for practical purposes is spoken alongside regional languages, even today. The British unified India politically, and "Indian," as a nationality, is an artificial legal construct like "American," "Canadian," or "Australian." Comparing "Russian," "Ukrainian," Belarussian," "Ruthenian," and "Rusyn," to the old Kievan Rus' is not even REMOTELY the same comparison AT ALL.

I mean, yes semantics and all that jazz, except despite all your hyperbole they are actually very comparable, given that "Russian" was also a faux-endonym specifically chosen for its derivation from the Rus', yet encompasses many Uralic, Siberian, and Turco-Mongolic people.

So your distinction is not only arbitrary but I think fundamentally indefensible without splitting the thinnest of hairs. And what good does hair-splitting do anyone, really? No one likes split ends.

 

[Patine]

You didn't read my post either, because I didn't say wearing the crown "alone."



I mean, yes semantics and all that jazz, except despite all your hyperbole they are actually very comparable, given that "Russian" was also a faux-endonym specifically chosen for its derivation from the Rus', yet encompasses many Uralic, Siberian, and Turco-Mongolic people.

So your distinction is not only arbitrary but I think fundamentally indefensible without splitting the thinnest of hairs. And what good does hair-splitting do anyone, really? No one likes split ends.

You've basically said nothing of meaning in either of these two statements except unproductively try to say that I'm wrong, with no sensible statement as to why. I think you've just neurotically hooked onto the idea that any post I make that you see MUST be declared wrong, no matter how flimsy, limp, or insubstantial - or even effectively non-existent - your "evidence" must be. You just can't SEEM to accept any point I make being in any way correct. That is why I advised seeing a psychiatrist a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Morningcalm]

To get back to topic, it occurs to me that the powerful queen Tiye would be another suitable Egyptian queen alternate. She was frequently in charge of foreign correspondence and diplomacy (foreign leaders respected her enough to deal directly with her), and was the first Egyptian queen to have her name recorded on official acts. She wielded immense power during the reign of her husband Amenhotep III (one of Egypt's more successful pharaohs) and her son, Akhenaten (one of the less successful, though initially he was successful when following his father's policies).

But for Civ VII I fully expect they will go with Hatshepsut, who had even more power, and was one of Egypt's best pharaohs (regardless of gender).

 

[Zaarin]

To get back to topic, it occurs to me that the powerful queen Tiye would be another suitable Egyptian queen alternate. She was frequently in charge of foreign correspondence and diplomacy (foreign leaders respected her enough to deal directly with her), and was the first Egyptian queen to have her name recorded on official acts. She wielded immense power during the reign of her husband Amenhotep III (one of Egypt's more successful pharaohs) and her son, Akhenaten (one of the less successful, though initially he was successful when following his father's policies).

If they chose a queen consort, Tiye seems less likely than either Ramesses' Nefertari or Akhenaten's Nefertiti, though I wouldn't rule her out as a possibility.

But for Civ VII I fully expect they will go with Hatshepsut, who had even more power, and was one of Egypt's best pharaohs (regardless of gender).

Agreed.

 

[Patine]

Ramesses' Nefertari.

Anne Baxter played the best Nefetari.

 

[Zaarin]

Anne Baxter played the best Nefetari.

Nefertari played the best Nefertari.

Spoiler :

 

[Bearmanjew]

Not reading through 17 pages of posts because I'm lazy, so forgive me if any of these are repeats or have already been discussed. I do wholeheartedly agree that more alternate leaders all around would be interesting...I miss the days of Civ IV when most of all the civs had duplicate leaders. The ones I would personally like to see added to Civ VI, in keeping with the goal of not picking the same people in every iteration of the game:
​

• I've always thought Richard the Lionheart would be interesting for a religious/militaristic variation of England. We've gotten a lot of British Empire variations in the three Civs I've played (IV-VI), with bonuses in industry, navy, espionage, science, gold, and now culture that we have Eleanor. But I don't think we've yet gotten a variety of England that had any particular focus on religion.
• I second the call for another American ruler. Thomas Jefferson is a good candidate to hybridize culture, diplomacy, and science at the expense maybe of military power, but if I may nominate another good leader who isn't one of the traditional picks, Ulysses S Grant would certainly be refreshing in the opposite direction. He was consequential both as a general (wherein he personally devised and executed the ingenious strategies that won several fronts of the American Civil War) and as a president (by completely crushing the KKK and enforcing Reconstruction, at least until he left office). Good for a USA that wants to be aggressive on all fronts.
  
• Rather than yet another samurai type, what if we got one of the biggest names in Japanese history who again so far as I know has never made an appearance? Emperor Meiji has a lot of potential in my opinion. Won the Boshin War, then led the modernization of Japan practically overnight. Might tread on Peter's trade route schtick a bit, but I think there's space to make it unique, given that it wouldn't be done through trade.
• I detailed what I would do to Rome and Italy in the Italy thread (currently on the suggestions front page but for the future, thread is located here), but in short: I would like to see three leaders for Rome (including Trajan), using Innocent III for the city state period and either Garibaldi or Victor Emmanuel for the post-unification period, with the name of the civ adjusting to whoever is leading it. This would collectively be the civ for the Italian peninsula, and neatly resolve any city name issues by combining all of them into one.
• Sun Yat Sen is a good nominee as well. I am woefully ignorant of Chinese history, so I know only a few dynasty names, let alone their rulers, but I have no doubt that there are other great candidates amongst the Ming, Qing, Song, and other. China should have like four or five different leaders realistically, but certainly having only one is a tragedy.
• Again, I don't know as much as I could, but one of the four Rashidun caliphs or any of the Umayyad caliphs would be new to Civ as well I think. Abu Bakr is I think the most famous, but there are many who would work. If you want a dual leadership scenario as well (like with Eleanor of France/England), you could maybe work in Al-Andalus as well and put an Umayyad in charge of both Arabia and Al-Andalus, though the only one who would be truly in charge of both would also be the one who lost Arabia to the Abbasids. But it's a possibility to consider.
• Russia surely deserves another leader. My only concern with Catherine is that this will be the third consecutive game to feature her, and some variety would be really nice, but then she's the only woman I'm mentioning in this entire post, so...yeah. Any of what you mentioned would be good in my opinion.
• France, too, needs another leader. We should probably bring back Napoleon, no question. But where we can have two alternates, why not three? We now have diplomatic victories. So why don't we bring in Charles Maurice de Talleyrand, the premiere diplomat who kept the coalition of sharks from devouring France entirely, even as Napoleon was crushed? Not enough civs specialize in diplomacy right now, and this would definitely be a new take on the Civ, which has traditionally been a culture/military powerhouse.

The one downside to most of these picks is that there are so few women amongst them, which speaks largely to my not knowing who would be appropriate. But at least they're largely new leaders and in several cases have pretty new takes on the Civs they lead compared to usual.​

 

[Zaarin]

Richard the Lionheart

Richard has a very popular public image, but while he may have been an excellent Crusader he wasn't much of a king. He spent about six months of his reign in England. For a religious England, I'd recommend Edward the Confessor.

good leader who isn't one of the traditional picks, Ulysses S Grant

You proposed a leader, but where's the good leader? Grant's administration was heinously corrupt--not because the president himself was corrupt but because he was a very poor judge of character and a rather uninspired administrator. For that matter, he was competent but not exactly brilliant as a general.

Emperor Meiji has a lot of potential in my opinion.

Not if you want the game sold in Japan, where depicting an emperor is taboo. Which is a shame, because I agree that something different would be a nice change. Ongoing shogunate Japan it will have to be--and kudos to Firaxis for at least breaking from the Sengoku period with Kamakura-era Hojo Tokimune. I propose a Heian leader next time...if for no other reason than Heian Japan was obsessed with aesthetics, which means Japan's leader will be very flashy.

Sun Yat Sen is a good nominee as well. I am woefully ignorant of Chinese history, so I know only a few dynasty names, let alone their rulers, but I have no doubt that there are other great candidates amongst the Ming, Qing, Song, and other. China should have like four or five different leaders realistically, but certainly having only one is a tragedy.

The weakness of the Chinese Republic is what led to the civil war between the Chinese Nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek and the Communists under Mao, resulting in a situation where no matter who won, the people of China lost. There are plenty of great emperors of China without resorting to the more controversial leaders who have presided over China since the fall of the Qing. (NB, Firaxis, that Qin by no means needs to be a staple, nor does Wu Zetian--though of the two I prefer Wu. How about Taizong of Tang or Wu of Han or the Kangxi Emperor, as awkward as that is to say in English?)

one of the four Rashidun caliphs

If I'm not mistaken this violates the Islamic prohibition of not depicting religious figures--but I could well be mistaken.

both Arabia and Al-Andalus

Considering that what Civ calls "Arabia" is essentially a blob of all the Islamic Caliphates, al-Andalus is, strictly speaking, part of Arabia--though as Civ moves away from blob civs, I would welcome a Caliphate of Córdoba civ under Abd ar-Rahman III.

Catherine

I'd love to see her back...in Civ7. In Civ6, I'm not sure what she brings to the table that Peter doesn't cover. They come from the same era, and broadly speaking they have a similar legacy of Westernizing Russia.

We should probably bring back Napoleon, no question.

I mean, he has name recognition, but he's so boring. I mean, you object to Catherine the Great reappearing, but Napoleon has been in every Civ except II and III. Louis XIV is equally famous--or if we must have a Napoleon, Louis Napoleon turned Paris from a backwards Medieval firetrap into the city of avenues it is today. (We just won't talk about his foreign policy--NB Bismarck was equally a failure at home as Louis Napoleon was abroad. I've often joked they would have made a great team with Louis Napoleon running domestic affairs and Bismarck seeing to foreign affairs. )

 

[The Kingmaker]

• Russia surely deserves another leader. My only concern with Catherine is that this will be the third consecutive game to feature her, and some variety would be really nice, but then she's the only woman I'm mentioning in this entire post, so...yeah. Any of what you mentioned would be good in my opinion.

Uh, what? Third consecutive game? Catherine was featured in Civ2, Civ3, Civ4 and Civ5, not to mention both CivRev games. If she were included in Civ6, it would be her fifth appearance in the main series.

 

[Phrozen]

Meiji was pretty much akin to the British monarch after the first Constitution of Japan was passed. He swayed government through charisma not through power. Once he died and his possibly mentally disabled son took power the government of Japan slowly slide into being controlled by the military.

You can simply put one of the three great nobles of the restoration though. Saigo Takamori, Kido Takayoski, or my personal pick Okubo Toshimichi.

 

[Bearmanjew]

If I'm not mistaken this violates the Islamic prohibition of not depicting religious figures--but I could well be mistaken.

I thought only Mohammed himself was barred? If it was any Caliph, then Al-Mansur from V would also be out, so, I would assume any caliph other than the man himself are valid options.

Not if you want the game sold in Japan, where depicting an emperor is taboo.

TIL. That sucks. I thought that was such a good option.

You proposed a leader, but where's the good leader? Grant's administration was heinously corrupt--not because the president himself was corrupt but because he was a very poor judge of character and a rather uninspired administrator. For that matter, he was competent but not exactly brilliant as a general.

Grant's record was, I would say, no worse than some of the other leaders currently on the roster, in that he was mostly successful. And with a handful of (already done) exceptions like Lincoln or Washington, you're not going to get many people so widely praised. Jefferson opposed national banking and owned slaves, FDR interned the Japanese, etc. Maybe Monroe would also work. I'm sure there were slaves as an issue since they pretty much all did, but he does have such a gorgeously ready made agenda name...

I mean, he has name recognition, but he's so boring. I mean, you object to Catherine the Great reappearing, but Napoleon has been in every Civ except II and III. Louis XIV is equally famous--or if we must have a Napoleon, Louis Napoleon turned Paris from a backwards Medieval firetrap into the city of avenues it is today. (We just won't talk about his foreign policy--NB Bismarck was equally a failure at home as Louis Napoleon was abroad. I've often joked they would have made a great team with Louis Napoleon running domestic affairs and Bismarck seeing to foreign affairs. )

Maybe no question was a tad strong...or rather more than a tad. France deserves a strong military leader, and Napoleon is certainly their foremost representative, but fair enough, he is a tired option. I would say not Louix XIV, by the same logic, since he was in Civ IV. Maybe this is reaching back a bit into Frankish history rather than French, but perhaps Charles Martel? Has he been done? I don't recall.

Uh, what? Third consecutive game? Catherine was featured in Civ2, Civ3, Civ4 and Civ5, not to mention both CivRev games. If she were included in Civ6, it would be her fifth appearance in the main series.

Err...third that I have played. My bad. Guess I just wasn't thinking about that fact when I wrote that, sorry.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I'd really like to see Minamoto no Yoritomo in the franchise sometime. Maybe Civ7? He was the first of the great shoguns in the Middle Ages, the victor of the Gempei War.

Definitely pre-Sengoku period. He was contemporary with Richard I, Barbarossa and Saladin.

 

[Patine]

but if I may nominate another good leader who isn't one of the traditional picks, Ulysses S Grant would certainly be refreshing in the opposite direction. He was consequential both as a general (wherein he personally devised and executed the ingenious strategies that won several fronts of the American Civil War) and as a president (by completely crushing the KKK and enforcing Reconstruction, at least until he left office). Good for a USA that wants to be aggressive on all fronts.

You proposed a leader, but where's the good leader? Grant's administration was heinously corrupt--not because the president himself was corrupt but because he was a very poor judge of character and a rather uninspired administrator. For that matter, he was competent but not exactly brilliant as a general.

There indeed, was Grant's government's corruption, which was legendary. Also, while he EXECUTED the strategy that won the American Civil War (from about late 1863 or early 1864 onward), it was actually the retired American general (and defeated 1852 Presidential Candidate) Winfield Scott who devised the Anaconda Plan that ultimately won the war for the Union.

 

[Zaarin]

I thought only Mohammed himself was barred?

More broadly the depiction of any prophet or religious figure is barred according to Islam (and also some varieties of Judaism). Some but not all sects of Islam extend this to Muhammad's immediate successors.

Maybe no question was a tad strong...or rather more than a tad. France deserves a strong military leader, and Napoleon is certainly their foremost representative, but fair enough, he is a tired option. I would say not Louix XIV, by the same logic, since he was in Civ IV. Maybe this is reaching back a bit into Frankish history rather than French, but perhaps Charles Martel? Has he been done? I don't recall.

Philippe Auguste would be a great military leader for France.

I'd really like to see Minamoto no Yoritomo in the franchise sometime. Maybe Civ7? He was the first of the great shoguns.

He'd be an interesting choice, but as Hojo is already a Kamakura shogun, I'd propose Fujiwara no Michinaga for a Heian Period leader--or, for a really out of the box choice, his daughter, Empress Consort Shōshi, who incidentally was the empress attended by Murusaki Shikibu and a number of other female artists. (If I'm not mistaken, the taboo regarding the royal family is in regards to the current royal family starting with Meiji.)

 

[Morningcalm]

If they chose a queen consort, Tiye seems less likely than either Ramesses' Nefertari or Akhenaten's Nefertiti, though I wouldn't rule her out as a possibility.

Tiye had more power than Nefertari and Nefertiti, even if she isn't as well known. I would say Tiye is superior to Nefertari and Nefertiti, and second only to Hatshepsut as best female Egyptian ruler pick (since we've had Cleopatra multiple times already).

 

[Bearmanjew]

Also, while he EXECUTED the strategy that won the American Civil War (from about late 1863 or early 1864 onward), it was actually the retired American general (and defeated 1852 Presidential Candidate) Winfield Scott who devised the Anaconda Plan that ultimately won the war for the Union.

No. Not that the Anaconda Plan wasn't crucial, I'll admit that it was the single most consequential strategy in the war, but that's not what I'm talking about. Grant and Grant alone is to whom you can attribute the coordination of several armies over hundreds of miles for the first time, using telegraphs, to prevent the Confederates from staging an effective defense. The Confederates had the benefit of defense and the use of their own railways, not negligible advantages in one of the world's first industrial wars, and they could use them to maintain local superiority over any Union army that pushed too far. Grant made sure that each army operated in a cohesive strategy where they all threatened territory at the same time, which prevented any Confederate armies from reinforcing the others.

There's a reason his reputation has been rehabilitated of late. He wasn't the perfect man, but he was a hell of a lot better than people have historically given him credit for, which was "bloodthirsty general who mostly won by throwing lives away, then incompetent president who suffered both scandal and recession".

Philippe Auguste would be a great military leader for France.

Ah, he seems good. I can roll with that.

for a really out of the box choice, his daughter, Empress Consort Shōshi, who incidentally was the empress attended by Murusaki Shikibu and a number of other female artists.

Would you not then run into the same issue as Meiji, in that you cannot depict the Emperor? Or was she not officially the ruler?

 

[The Kingmaker]

He'd be an interesting choice, but as Hojo is already a Kamakura shogun, I'd propose Fujiwara no Michinaga for a Heian Period leader--or, for a really out of the box choice, his daughter, Empress Consort Shōshi, who incidentally was the empress attended by Murusaki Shikibu and a number of other female artists. (If I'm not mistaken, the taboo regarding the royal family is in regards to the current royal family starting with Meiji.)

Hojo Tokimune was never a Shogun. He was a Shikken.

 

[Patine]

I'd really like to see Minamoto no Yoritomo in the franchise sometime. Maybe Civ7? He was the first of the great shoguns in the Middle Ages, the victor of the Gempei War.

Definitely pre-Sengoku period. He was contemporary with Richard I, Barbarossa and Saladin..

He'd be an interesting choice, but as Hojo is already a Kamakura shogun, I'd propose Fujiwara no Michinaga for a Heian Period leader--or, for a really out of the box choice, his daughter, Empress Consort Shōshi, who incidentally was the empress attended by Murusaki Shikibu and a number of other female artists. (If I'm not mistaken, the taboo regarding the royal family is in regards to the current royal family starting with Meiji.)

Hojo Tokimune was never a Shogun. He was a Shikken.

Not sure how popular a Japanese leader who effectively predated the institution of samurai, in a proper sense, with be with the modern gaming fan base. The samurai are pretty iconic in a lot of people's views of Japan in these games - moreso than most other specific military traditions attached to other specific cultures. I, myself, don't necessarily think they're bad choices, but you how some fan hang-ups can be...

 

[AmazonQueen]

Richard has a very popular public image, but while he may have been an excellent Crusader he wasn't much of a king. He spent about six months of his reign in England. For a religious England, I'd recommend Edward the Confessor.

Nice abbey, lousy king.
Like most of our "religious" kings he wasn't that saintly, he just didn't like women and liked building
Who could you have? Alfred (too early), Henry III (too mediocre), Mary I (too bloody), James II (a disaster)
Richard I wasn't all that religious, he just liked fighting
IMO the best leader for a religious/military England would be Oliver Cromwell