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More Alternate Leaders?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by HoorayForSiam, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Ezumiyr

    Ezumiyr Warlord

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    I just wanted to add some infos about the capital of France through ages (and maybe how it can help choosing an alt leader):

    I won't list all the technical capitals of France here, just some "important" ones. Before anything, remember that during the middle ages and the renaissance, the king and his court was mobile, and the capital moved with him. In France, the kings particularly loved to go in castles of the Loire.

    Now with the capitals:

    Tournai, capital of the Franks - including Clovis. I'm not fond of that guy, especially since he didn't really lead France, but it's true that he could have an different city list quite easily, with Tournai, Soissons etc.

    Aix-la-Chapelle, capital of Charlemagne. I don't think I really need to explain here, even if again it's not really a leader of France. But I'm sure it would please a lot of people to have him in the game.

    Tours, capital of the Renaissance - technically it was the capital of Henri IV for several years. But probably too close to Catherine de Medicis. (btw, it would be nice if people stopped saying "she is Italian so cannot be french" - the european nobility has always favoured exogeny. Catherine de Medicis spoke french and ruled france with the french. It's even worse for Napoléon. If you think the nation state is the only possible kind of country then you need to go back to school. France is made of various ethnicities since it was born - and even before that. Similar thing for Ptolematic Egypt. No matter what you think, it's a fact that a greek dynasty living in egypt for centuries deserves to be called egyptian. Heck, Cleopatra's family has lived in Egypt longer than most "American" families have lived in the US. Are you really willing to calculate whether each ruler was ethnically pure enough so they can rule? Personally I open a history book, I think that a ruler ruled over a country, that's enough for me. Please stop with your crypto-racism.)

    Louis XIV and Versailles, of course. It's the obvious pick.

    Adolphe Thiers in Versailles. He is the big unknown guy of the french 19th century. He's basically responsible (not alone, but still) of every political regime in France after the failed Restauration in 1830, and was in power at several times between 1830 and his death in 1877. If the devs want to introduce another relatively unknown french leader, I think he's a good choice, and as a president, he also ruled from Versailles. And it's wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone else from the 19th century than the proto-Hitler Napoléon. I'm tired to see my country represented by someone who's nothing else but a barbarian parenthesis in our history.
     
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  2. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    France is one of my favourite civs to play so I'm glad that another French alternate leader is being discussed a lot in this thread. I would like to see Louis XVI as leader especially as I just finished watching the Versailles TV series. How do you feel about having Cardinal Richelieu as leader?
     
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  3. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Shall we also have Millard Fillmore lead the US? How about Æthelred the Unready for England? :lol: The guy lost his head for a reason. :p

    Would have been nice instead of CdM, but since we're already stuck with her how would Richelieu's abilities and agenda be meaningfully different?
     
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  4. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    I meant Louis XIV lol I got the numerals mixed up :scared:

    It's hard because he did dabble in espionage so that would just be the same as CdMs. One of the main things that he did was centralise power in France and consolidated the power of the monarchy so maybe his bonus should have something to do with Loyalty and Religion. Maybe Richelieu would be similar to Lautaro as he would be good at destabilising neighbouring civs (in some different way) but also good at strengthening France.

    If Richelieu was leader I would really want to see the Musketeer as the replacement French UU. Replaces musket man. +10 strength when fighting beside 2 other musketeers. The reason for this is because my issue with CdM is that the Garde Impériale has nothing to do with the leader. This seperates her from the other leaders who's UU is linked to the time of their leadership eg Victoria and Redcoats, Teddy and Roughriders, Philip and Conquistadors etc.

    With the next game expansion I would also really like to see Notre Dame and Versailles as new wonders. This is because I like to build wonders appropriate to the Civ and once I build Mont St Michel and the Eiffel tower I feel a bit silly building the Forbidden Place in LaRochelle. We need 2 more French wonders to suit Frances civ ability, and a four wonder limit cap to stop one civ wonder spamming which I think I've mentioned in other threads.
     
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  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    That hat the redcoat is wearing is so not Victorian and khaki began replacing red in 1848 although it wasn't adopted for all troops until 1902. That redcoat does not look like a Victorian soldier, more a Hanoverian one.
     
  6. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    One or two red coats wear the British army uniform or high hat from the Napoleonic wars, ending in 1815. From this I think that it is implied that this is a unit associated with Britains imperial past in the 18th and 19th century. The unit also is linked to Victoria in that they are used to fight wars on other continents and establish colonies oversees. With Victoria being born 1819 and reigning from 1837 it at least puts her around the era of Redcoats, and Britains foreign policy under her rule is appropriate for the Redcoat unit ability.

    Catherine de' Medici on the other hand was born in 1519 and died in 1559. If the Garde Impériale is the UU based on the Napoleonic wars that is nearly 300 years after Cdm's rule. Unlike Victoria, Catherines rule has nothing to do with the Garde Impériale or with the Napoleonic wars that it is associated with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Redcoats are hardly identified solely with Victoria and nor is fighting wars on other continents or establishing colonies overseas. Personally I'd rather see the Redcoat as the English UU, the Seadog given to Elizabeth I as her UU (since the era of state-sponsored piracy in English history is very much her reign) and Victoria get a UU more specific to her reign. If the Redcoat is to be her UU it should at least look like a Victorian soldier and not one from the Seven Years War or the War of Independence.
     
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  8. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    I really like the redcoat unit but I admit that they probably based the design on a 18th century British infantryman rather than an 19th century one. And I do agree that maybe a redcoat wearing Khaki or the uniform from the Anglo Zulu war would be more relevant to Victoria.

    An alternate leader for England who would be great and relevant for the civs ability and UUs would be George III. He wears the white wig and British Red Coat in many of his portraits, looking very much the part of 18th century British monarch, and he reigned during the seven years war, the French Indian war and the American war of Independence. All conflicts synonymous with the Redcoats! He also reigned for 60 years and is a generally well loved and colourful monarch (at least with the British people at the time).
     
  9. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I agree that the Redcoat and Pax Britannica would work well for George III. Really the only bit of England that stands out as Victorian to me is the British Museum.
     
  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Ah. Yes, I'd love to have Louis XIV return.

    I doubt we'll see two French wonders in one expansion, but it's a disgrace that two expansions and a good handful of DLC in and we still don't have a single Gothic cathedral. France has a good number of wonderful cathedrals to choose from, but Nôtre Dame de Paris is probably the most iconic.

    God forbid. If you have space to build the wonder, you should be able to build it. Especially since building wonders is about the only thing that's fun in the game for me.

    There are plenty who aren't. As has already been pointed out, Victoria didn't really have any particular link with the Redcoats. More pointedly, war elephants were never widely fielded and certainly weren't in Gandhi's time. Barbarossa definitely wasn't fielding U-Boats. The hwacha came hundreds of years after Seondeok. The Highlander as depicted in game came hundreds of years after Robert the Bruce. Only the abilities specifically brought by the leader are relevant to the leader himself/herself, though some civs are more built around their leader than others (for example, what is allegedly "Sumer" is really just The Epic of Gilgamesh: Civ Edition :p ).
     
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  11. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    For Gothic or Renaissance Cathedrals I could name you at least six that would all look great on the map. Notre Dame, Cologne, Florence, Milan, Seville and Venice would all be great are all distinguishable enough from each other to feature. St Pauls would also be good but I think the new England Palace is based on the building.
    There is also not one Castle wonder in the game and these building have been constructed all around the world and attract millions of tourists every year. There would be just too many to suggest!

    I know there are some civs who's leader doesn't match the UUs, UIs and civ abilities but in my opinion these are some of the worse designed civs in the game. I think they have improved India and made the leader more relevant to the UU with Chandragupta.

    I think we know the leader who we associate with U boats and Panzers is but they wouldnt dare include him in and Germanys not a naval power so maybe they should have thought of another UU. Teutonic knight could have been good for Frederick.

    Scotland is just a mess in every way and with Korea I think the leader was chosen at the end when the civ had been designed, and I do think that more creditable and relavant Korean leaders like Sejong were overlooked because they wanted another female leader in the game.
     
  12. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    To a certain extent it doesn;t really matter how well the leaders match their ability
    I don't think the civs abilities have to match the leader. The civs abilities should represent the civ in general, the leaders abilities some specific aspect or period. That way there would be a purpose in adding more alternate leaders.
    The Hansa is fine because it represents German industry and craftsmanship, something the area has long been associated with. The U-Boat is poor because Germany has never been primarily a naval power. Barbarossa's ability, although not that great, fits him reasonably.
     
  13. Naktis

    Naktis Warlord

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    I actually think alternative leaders feature is underused for this game , aside for greece :D

    I liked the op idea on Jefferson. Mount rushmore presidents need to be added for civ.

    China - prob a female empress would fit best. Pls no more Wu Zetia. Op mentioned Cixi , but after reading that her rule brought a lot of humiliation too , and then remember about Korean leader firaxis added , I think its clear that Cixi is our ALT chinese leader ;)

    Egypt - true we need real egyptian and from egypt gold age timeline , just pls no more ramses , there plenty good pharaohs beside him like Khufu or Akhatean.

    England - Vicky is enough , also that continent is gonna become overcrowded , especially if in xpac they add Irish too :lol::mischief: so one is enough.

    France - from so many good female options they those this itallian...what the..?! and then they release bunch of greece alt leaders , then indian...france doesnt have actual french leader , first alt shouldve been Napoleon , they even added garde imperiale..so how can they skip him now ?!

    Germany - oh...a mustache guy you want ehh ? :lol: I agree I want him too , but unless firaxis decide to release some DLC "world of evil" pack with mao , mustache guy, stalin , we never gonna get him ;) on a serious note Germany could add atleast 2 leaders hands down , first Fredrick the Great from Prussia great military leader , also Prussia should be added for Civ6 either complete whole civ or as alt germans. Second Martin Luther if we want religious germany. Third Bismarck with Panzers.

    Greece - LOL lets make civ 6 the alts of greece :D which states still need leader ?! :D

    Japan - Oda was in Civ 5...so its time for Hideoshi Toyotomi/Hashiba to make appearance , really great career he made , also unified Japan , after his death Tokugawa just needed to beat his retainers to get whole Japan. Ofc if they think its enough samurai period they can add Emperor Meiji.

    Korea
    - I just really hope they add someone like Sejong , but I doubt korea gets alt leader at all unless we get like 3 more xpansions which is unlikely coz I guess 2020-21 is Civ7 gonna be released.

    Poland - nobody wants alt leader for them , but I still wanna get Lithuanian civ as a whole or as alt with together when they formed Commonwealth , Leader Jogaila/Władysław II Jagiełło.

    Rome
    - you know I just thought an idea , why not make TWO leaders that appear at once , like Roman republic had 2 consuls , so why not make TWO consuls appear as leaders. So two ideas for duo is Pompey+Crassus or Sulla+Marius , the only problem I see here is that..Trajan already has Rome , so no other city for them to start. But this is an idea for mod or for Civ7. If you ever want to add a republic of rome , then it was mostly ruled by TWO consuls, and if they ever want to add 2 leaders in one screen , besides vietnamese sisters , roman consuls is best fit.

    Russia - well Moscow is free , so plenty of choices , from Soviet Union with Lenin , to any other Tsar or female leader but best is Catherine or Anna everyone expect another Catherine and we get Anna tho not as famous as Cath. Also great option to add more like Kievan Rus with Olga:mischief:

    Spain
    - firaxis and we want female...so Isabella
     
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  14. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I'd throw Chartres, Rouen, and Westminster in the ring for consideration as well. And it's not Gothic, but I'd love to see the Cathedral-Mosque of Córdoba, as well.

    I think Krak des Chevaliers is the obvious choice.

    I disagree. As Amazon Queen says, I don't think there's any relevance between units and leaders from the same era unless the UU is specifically attached to the leader's ability (like Teddy's Rough Riders). With a few exceptions like Alexander, most leaders represent only a small slice of a long history.

    The Teutonic Knights would still have been anachronistic by several centuries for Frederick, if you want to get technical. But I agree that giving a naval UU to a civilization that IRL has a few miles of coastline and has never been a naval power is silly. But it has nothing to do with Frederick.

    Can we not get into this pointless and usually sexist debate again? Seondeok was a fine choice. She was a capable leader under whose leadership Silla flourished in a scientific golden age. We can question whether Korea ought to be a science-focused civ (spoiler: no, it probably shouldn't be), but since it seems that it will be in perpetua, the devs basically have two leader choices: Sejong of Joseon and Seondeok of Silla--and we just had Sejong last game.

    Considering that Wu Zetian was the only one...

    :rolleyes:

    Who was also Italian... :rolleyes:

    Isn't Toyotomi generally regarded as something of a monster, even by the Japanese? Tokugawa would be a better choice.

    I'm reasonably certain that Firaxis doesn't want their game banned in one of the largest markets outside the US. :p
     
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  15. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Warlord

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    I really like Philip as leader and his bonuses go well with the civ but Isabella in Civ5 was very attractive. If they wanted to include a sexy Spanish lady wearing this get up I would be a happy guy.

    Isabella_(Civ5).png

    Bodiam, Warwick, Conwy, Hohenzollern, Neuschwanstein, Alcazar, Corvin, Arg e Bam, Kerak and Himeji would all be great. It's a bit goofy but Disneyworld could also be a modern wonder with the Disney Castle exaggerated. If you build it you pretty much win the culture victory with all the gold and tourism that it generates.

    Sorry I have no problem with Seondeok I was just trying to make the point that the best leaders are the ones in the same era as their respective UU or UI, male or female. That's just my opinion though and if anyone disagrees I haven't got a problem with that.
     
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  16. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    My #1 request would be a leader for America. Teddy is cool but a different direction for them would be interesting.
    So here's my list:

    America - Abraham Lincoln
    Lincoln could make America a production powerhouse. Union's industry overwhelmed Confederacy in US Civil War.
    Could have a Monitor UU replacing ironclad.

    Congo - Queen Ana N'Zinga
    A refreshing change for the religion-nut Mvemba a Zinga.
    Ana N'zinga had great skills in diplomacy and warfare, and if next expansion gives us diplomacy or combat enhancements she would fit well.

    England - Henry V
    Big personalitty, great briton, pops in a lot in discussions for new English leader.
    Longbowmen a natural UU for him.

    Rome - Justinian
    Many would argue that Byzantium should have it's own civ and it would be well deserved, but I think a leader for Rome would work too.
    Focus on capital city, religion and warfare?

    Italian States(with different leader choices)
    Yeah there's no such thing yet, but my dream would be having a choice between say
    Venetian leader - commerce
    Papal States leader - religion and diplomatic scheming
    Florentian leader - culture focus
     
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  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I have a hard time imagining what Isabella could bring as a new leader when Philip already covers religion and exploration. I just hope the next time Isabella shows up again Firaxis remembers she was famous for being strawberry blonde. :p
     
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  18. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Should Ndonga and Matamba be considered the same civ as Kongo? Because that was the Kingdom Ana Nzinga actually ruled.
     
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  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Phillip doesn't cover exploration at all in his leader ability, so I think Isabella would be a great leader if they wanted to make Spain more exploration focused. Of course I'm also under the impression that the true exploration civ we get will be Portugal.
     
  20. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    But Spain as a civ has exploration/colonization abilities, and, funding Columbus aside, I'd personally associate Isabella, Defender of the Faith, with religion more than exploration. She didn't conquer Grenada because she was curious about its library or fund the Inquisition out of curiosity. :p Also recall that the ostensible purpose of Columbus' voyage was to fund a crusade...

    But I agree: I'd be astonished to see Isabella at this point. She overlaps too heavily with Philip, there are too many other civilizations that could better use an alternate leader, and the likelihood of Portugal's return makes her that much less relevant.
     
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