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[<Nexus>]

Been playing with your civic reforms module for a while, and I gotta say, I loved it enough to consider it a core part of the game. Great job, mate. It's real fun when you're actually able to reduce corporation maintenance to -113% through certain civic choices; makes corp spamming a real joyride.

THX!
It's nice to hear that.
...but telling the truth I don't remember touching corp. maintenance at all. I think it's the same as it was in the original mod.

So far, my only complaint is that early game civics are too weak or punishing compared to later-game civics; I've always been a person who likes all his civics to be useful in all circumstances (except the starting ones; they're meant to suck, and I'm fine with that).

We agree that civics should not be "the newer is always the batter", but some are truly meant to inferior to the ones coming later:
Palace Economy is meant to be better than Barter but worse than anything later. I can't imagine growing - not city-state - medieval civ using it.
Chronicles is about the same. It's good to switch out from Oral Tradition but media as a civic category is really a matter only from the Renaissance. I had in mind the concept that this category will be rather interesting in the modern times.
Immigration: I don't see big problems here but may need balancing.
Territory Governance: I think it's also (mostly) okay. You chose depending on your empire size.

Junta, in particular, is incredibly punishing, and Theocracy in comparison is downright divine in the ancient era.

Strange. In my current late medieval, early renaissance game most AIs are running this. IMO the /military unit can be very powerful.

And to be honest, I think Theocracy is more applicable in the government civic group, rather than the rule group...

I think not.
The ruler can be a dictator or a king or be elected and at the same time be mainly backed by the military (Junta), by the church (Theocracy), by the Nobility or the Senate or etc. Theocracy would be a governmental civic in a fantasy mod, where the civ was truly ruled by a god

(despotism needs a more straightforward buff too tbh; despotism confirmed for needing more love)

What do you suggest?

Would you be open to make an expanded corps module? Currently, all the new corps are food/entertainment companies, with no industrial/tech magnates and only 1 PMC. I'd love to see something like RobCo, Nippon Steel, or General Atomics...

I am absolutely open to all suggestions. Don't say I will do anything at all but wanna hear ideas

(I can even help with the fluff and the crunch, if you're willing to do so btw)

THX. Will'll see about that later

 

[GreedyManul]

THX!
It's nice to hear that.
...but telling the truth I don't remember touching corp. maintenance at all. I think it's the same as it was in the original mod.

Through a combo of Guilds, Corporate economy, Corporate Welfare, and Mainstream Media, you can push corporation costs to -113%, which means you can spam corporations like crazy with zero maintenance fees. Media regulation can be used too (for a total of -103%, which is still over -100%), if you value research and culture more than your coffers.

(I do find myself switching to Superhuman when it gets available, though, because muh megacities)

We agree that civics should not be "the newer is always the batter", but some are truly meant to inferior to the ones coming later:
Palace Economy is meant to be better than Barter but worse than anything later. I can't imagine growing - not city-state - medieval civ using it.
Chronicles is about the same. It's good to switch out from Oral Tradition but media as a civic category is really a matter only from the Renaissance. I had in mind the concept that this category will be rather interesting in the modern times.
Immigration: I don't see big problems here but may need balancing.
Territory Governance: I think it's also (mostly) okay. You chose depending on your empire size.

For Palace econ and Chronicles, I won't say anything, as they're "intermediary" civics. For immigration, however, controlled borders' +20% crowding unhappy is a bit too much for me, as it needlessly restricts city growth. Maybe that's an intermediary for the 3 later civic choices too...

And territorial governance... well... city states up until Acropolis goes obsolete is WAAAY OP combined with Republic. In fact, you can just infinite city sprawl your empire (if you don't care about/can counteract the unhappiness penalty), and just laugh at all those losers who can't keep up with you. Fiefdom is very "ouch" with the crowding unhappiness thing, though. Really punished me and forced me to use the culture slider until I managed to get to Centralization.

I love my productive capabilities, as you can tell. A productive empire is a strong empire!

Strange. In my current late medieval, early renaissance game most AIs are running this. IMO the /military unit can be very powerful.

It's mostly about the +1 gold per military unit cost. In an experimental game where I moved theocracy to government, junta really kicked me in the nads. Made things really challenging in the ancient era.

I think not.
The ruler can be a dictator or a king or be elected and at the same time be mainly backed by the military (Junta), by the church (Theocracy), by the Nobility or the Senate or etc. Theocracy would be a governmental civic in a fantasy mod, where the civ was truly ruled by a god

I'll take your word. Just thought there are way too many rule civics.

What do you suggest?

Just as Senate synergizes with Republic in a way, I think Despotism could synergize with authoritarian civic choices, like Single Party and Junta. And of course, I'm eager for labor camps to shunt dissidents into...

I am absolutely open to all suggestions. Don't say I will do anything at all but wanna hear ideas

So far, I've cooked up a collection of corps that expand beyond the food/luxury/entertainment schtick that may apply for such a module. This, of course, is open to change:

Ubermacht AG - Automobile manufacturing company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides and ; consumes oil products, aluminum, and vulcanized rubber; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Smithson Steelworks - Steel milling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , , and the steel resource; consumes coal and iron; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Massive Petroleum Ltd - Oil drilling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , , and ; consumes oil; its unique building can work as a better refinery (and even replace it!) without the need for rivers.

General Atomics - Nuclear research company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides and ; consumes lead and uranium; its unique building can act as a safer nuclear reactor (and even replace it!), with bonuses with its respective resources and some .

SwiftCom Inc - Computer Hardware/Software company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides , , and microchips; consumes gold, silver, copper; its unique building can provide and with its respective resources.

Cyberdyne Systems - Defense contractor specializing in you-know-what; can be founded by a great general; provides and ; consumes aluminum, steel, and microchips; its unique building gives a small XP bonus to all mecha, air, naval, dreadnought, and hi-tech units, along with a unique promotion line and can provide with its respective resources and .

THX. Will'll see about that later

Will*

 

[<Nexus>]

Through a combo of Guilds, Corporate economy, Corporate Welfare, and Mainstream Media, you can push corporation costs to -113%, which means you can spam corporations like crazy with zero maintenance fees. Media regulation can be used too (for a total of -103%, which is still over -100%), if you value research and culture more than your coffers.

(I do find myself switching to Superhuman when it gets available, though, because muh megacities)

Honestly, I never really cared for - nor even fully understood - corporations mechanism. So this part may be unbalanced. What do you think?
I only had in mind, that combining Guilds with Corp. eco could be nice

For Palace econ and Chronicles, I won't say anything, as they're "intermediary" civics. For immigration, however, controlled borders' +20% crowding unhappy is a bit too much for me, as it needlessly restricts city growth. Maybe that's an intermediary for the 3 later civic choices too...

There was a discussion long ago about new civic categories. Although only Foreign Policy made it to the game, there was discussion about Territory Governance, Immigration and Justice too. So I tried to do with Ter.Gov. and Immigration what was discussed there. I think I'll remove the overcrowding penalty from Controlled B. and change Open Immigration too: +50%:gpp: goes down to +20% and either remove the 1 in all cities or replace it with 1/25% foreign culture.
What do you think?

And territorial governance... well... city states up until Acropolis goes obsolete is WAAAY OP combined with Republic. In fact, you can just infinite city sprawl your empire (if you don't care about/can counteract the unhappiness penalty), and just laugh at all those losers who can't keep up with you. Fiefdom is very "ouch" with the crowding unhappiness thing, though. Really punished me and forced me to use the culture slider until I managed to get to Centralization.

My goal with City States was was to allow "Greek colonization" - can found a city anywhere. The distance doesn't matter only the number of cities.

I'll take your word. Just thought there are way too many rule civics.

I agree but cannot/don't want to remove any.

Just as Senate synergizes with Republic in a way, I think Despotism could synergize with authoritarian civic choices, like Single Party and Junta. And of course, I'm eager for labor camps to shunt dissidents into...

Agree. Will have to look after this more...

So far, I've cooked up a collection of corps that expand beyond the food/luxury/entertainment schtick that may apply for such a module. This, of course, is open to change:

Ubermacht AG - Automobile manufacturing company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides and ; consumes oil products, aluminum, and vulcanized rubber; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Smithson Steelworks - Steel milling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , , and the steel resource; consumes coal and iron; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Massive Petroleum Ltd - Oil drilling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , , and ; consumes oil; its unique building can work as a better refinery (and even replace it!) without the need for rivers.

General Atomics - Nuclear research company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides and ; consumes lead and uranium; its unique building can act as a safer nuclear reactor (and even replace it!), with bonuses with its respective resources and some .

SwiftCom Inc - Computer Hardware/Software company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides , , and microchips; consumes gold, silver, copper; its unique building can provide and with its respective resources.

Cyberdyne Systems - Defense contractor specializing in you-know-what; can be founded by a great general; provides and ; consumes aluminum, steel, and microchips; its unique building gives a small XP bonus to all mecha, air, naval, dreadnought, and hi-tech units, along with a unique promotion line and can provide with its respective resources and .

Hmm... I like those ideas
They still need competition.
BTW, are those real corporations, fictional or your own ideas?
There was an other suggestion before about a trader company. That worth to consider too.

My only problem is, that I don't fully understand Realistic Corporation Founding at the moment. I don't know if the new corporations will be autofounded or there are some other python editing things or other.

 

[GreedyManul]

Honestly, I never really cared for - nor even fully understood - corporations mechanism. So this part may be unbalanced. What do you think?
I only had in mind, that combining Guilds with Corp. eco could be nice

It is very unbalanced, and quite cheap if you're ready and willing to saturate your empire with corporations. I can stock up on great people, spam corporation founding, and turbocharge my empire so aggressively, I can shoot past pretty much anyone. Try and ease on the maintenance reduction bonuses, so there's still a cost to having all those corporations; if max corporate maintenance reduction you can attain is over -90%, you have a problem.

There was a discussion long ago about new civic categories. Although only Foreign Policy made it to the game, there was discussion about Territory Governance, Immigration and Justice too. So I tried to do with Ter.Gov. and Immigration what was discussed there. I think I'll remove the overcrowding penalty from Controlled B. and change Open Immigration too: +50%:gpp: goes down to +20% and either remove the 1 in all cities or replace it with 1/25% foreign culture.
What do you think?

All of it sounds good so far. And the from foreign culture is a much better touch - multiculturalism comes with a price.

My goal with City States was was to allow "Greek colonization" - can found a city anywhere. The distance doesn't matter only the number of cities.

As a person who stress tests game balance for exploits, I gotta say, that's bad news. Concept's good, but implementation can fall flat, and when you don't have to worry about crushing maintenance costs anymore, you're bound to have it milked like crazy (especially if the possible happiness penalty can be ignored). Try and balance it by fiddling with the unhappiness per city quantity scale, make it a tad more punishing (2 unhappy per excess city instead of 1?); this'll put a break on the infinite city sprawl exploit.

Agree. Will have to look after this more...

Can't wait for what you'll cook up.

Hmm... I like those ideas
They still need competition.
BTW, are those real corporations, fictional or your own ideas?
There was an other suggestion before about a trader company. That worth to consider too.

Half of them fictional One of them is actually real, with only 2 fictional corps, and 3 I made up on the spot. General Atomics is from Fallout actually a real-life corporation _{disregard my previous statement}, Ubermacht is from GTA, and Cyberdyne's from the Terminator (unrelated from its real life counterpart).

Competition is set up by seeing which corporations share the same resources consumed; for example, General Atomics will compete with Mining Inc (Lead), SwiftCom will compete with Civilized Jewelers, Mining Inc, and Creative Constructions (Gold, Silver, and Copper), and Cyberdyne will compete with Ultimate Soldiers (Steel). Unless you mean something else?

And as you can manually set competitors in the XML, you can make Massive Petroleum compete with Standard Ethanol for obvious reasons, even though they don't consume the same resources.

As for the trader corp... it'd be nice to implement, but I got no idea about how the idea was presented. Got a link?

My only problem is, that I don't fully understand Realistic Corporation Founding at the moment. I don't know if the new corporations will be autofounded or there are some other python editing things or other.

I don't play with it, prefer to pop corps with great people instead.

 

[<Nexus>]

It is very unbalanced, and quite cheap if you're ready and willing to saturate your empire with corporations. I can stock up on great people, spam corporation founding, and turbocharge my empire so aggressively, I can shoot past pretty much anyone. Try and ease on the maintenance reduction bonuses, so there's still a cost to having all those corporations; if max corporate maintenance reduction you can attain is over -90%, you have a problem.

Okay, I'll fix that. Maybe capping it at -80% at the "best" combo you mentioned.

As a person who stress tests game balance for exploits, I gotta say, that's bad news. Concept's good, but implementation can fall flat, and when you don't have to worry about crushing maintenance costs anymore, you're bound to have it milked like crazy (especially if the possible happiness penalty can be ignored). Try and balance it by fiddling with the unhappiness per city quantity scale, make it a tad more punishing (2 unhappy per excess city instead of 1?); this'll put a break on the infinite city sprawl exploit.

Will try than 2.

Can't wait for what you'll cook up.

me too

 

[<Nexus>]

Half of them fictional One of them is actually real, with only 2 fictional corps, and 3 I made up on the spot. General Atomics is from Fallout actually a real-life corporation _{disregard my previous statement}, Ubermacht is from GTA, and Cyberdyne's from the Terminator (unrelated from its real life counterpart).

Competition is set up by seeing which corporations share the same resources consumed; for example, General Atomics will compete with Mining Inc (Lead), SwiftCom will compete with Civilized Jewelers, Mining Inc, and Creative Constructions (Gold, Silver, and Copper), and Cyberdyne will compete with Ultimate Soldiers (Steel). Unless you mean something else?

And as you can manually set competitors in the XML, you can make Massive Petroleum compete with Standard Ethanol for obvious reasons, even though they don't consume the same resources.

Yes, that's what I thought about.

As for the trader corp... it'd be nice to implement, but I got no idea about how the idea was presented. Got a link?

No. All I have in mind is that it would consume fuel resources and its building would give for connectedness. Maybe it could come with a pair competitor: a massive trader vs an on-line trader.

I don't play with it, prefer to pop corps with great people instead.

And I always play with it. Less micro and I feel it's also better for the AI.

 

[<Nexus>]

Ubermacht AG - Automobile manufacturing company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides and ; consumes oil products, aluminum, and vulcanized rubber; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Okay, that sound good. Has a cool logo too

or

Which is the original? I don't play GTA.

Smithson Steelworks - Steel milling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , , and the steel resource; consumes coal and iron; its unique building increases with its respective resources and .

Maybe something well known fictional...
How about Wayne Enterprise?
Has a well recognizable logo:

Massive Petroleum Ltd - Oil drilling company; can be founded by a great engineer; provides , gold, and ; consumes oil; its unique building can work as a better refinery (and even replace it!) without the need for rivers.

What came to my mind immediately is Lego's Octan:

General Atomics - Nuclear research company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides and ; consumes lead and uranium; its unique building can act as a safer nuclear reactor (and even replace it!), with bonuses with its respective resources and some .

Maybe Stark Industries?
Logo could be

or

Replace building could be the Arc Reactor.

SwiftCom Inc - Computer Hardware/Software company; can be founded by a great scientist; provides , , and microchips; consumes gold, silver, copper; its unique building can provide and with its respective resources.

Maybe LexCorp would compete with Wayne Enterprise
Logo:

Cyberdyne Systems - Defense contractor specializing in you-know-what; can be founded by a great general; provides and ; consumes aluminum, steel, and microchips; its unique building gives a small XP bonus to all mecha, air, naval, dreadnought, and hi-tech units, along with a unique promotion line and can provide with its respective resources and .

That has a good logo:

 

[GreedyManul]

No. All I have in mind is that it would consume fuel resources and its building would give for connectedness. Maybe it could come with a pair competitor: a massive trader vs an on-line trader.

That'd be fabulous.

Okay, that sound good. Has a cool logo too

or

Which is the original? I don't play GTA.

Any could work. You could also rip another car company called "Benefactor" who'd compete with Ubermacht. Like the BMW/Mercedes Benz thing.

Maybe something well known fictional...
How about Wayne Enterprise?
Has a well recognizable logo:

Wayne Enterprises is an insanely large and diverse corporation, which has its hands on too much. I prefer something more specialized...

Maybe LexCorp would compete with Wayne Enterprise
Logo:

Same with LexCorp.

What I have in mind for those is they could be competing "supercorporations", which provide incredible bonuses but aren't powerful enough to be a replacement for a group of more specialized smaller corporations. They also wouldn't play nice with said specialized corps. _{you don't have to implement it however}

So instead of those, try Rearden Steel for the steelmaking part, and dataDyne for the computer part?

What came to my mind immediately is Lego's Octan:

Bit on the rough side, but it's good.

Maybe Stark Industries?
Logo could be

or

Replace building could be the Arc Reactor.

This one, on the other hand, I got no qualms for.

That has a good logo:

Skynet world wonder when? jk

Apart from Wayne Enterprises/LexCorp, everytihng's shaping up to be just perfect.

 

[<Nexus>]

Any could work. You could also rip another car company called "Benefactor" who'd compete with Ubermacht. Like the BMW/Mercedes Benz thing.

Maybe this one is enough and it should compete with the trader company/ies.

Wayne Enterprises is an insanely large and diverse corporation, which has its hands on too much. I prefer something more specialized...


Same with LexCorp.

What I have in mind for those is they could be competing "supercorporations", which provide incredible bonuses but aren't powerful enough to be a replacement for a group of more specialized smaller corporations. They also wouldn't play nice with said specialized corps. _{you don't have to implement it however}

You're right. I also had some feelings like that, just

So instead of those, try Rearden Steel for the steelmaking part, and

That logo won't work when shrunk down.

dataDyne for the computer part?
That's good. Only I'd use a more artistic icon:

Bit on the rough side, but it's good.

We're still in the brainstorming phase and I'm not sticking to any particular choice, so feel free to suggest others

This one, on the other hand, I got no qualms for.

Skynet world wonder when? jk

Why not? I can imagine an event spawning barbarian mechs

Apart from Wayne Enterprises/LexCorp, everytihng's shaping up to be just perfect.

Good


However don't expect new corporations any time soon. I am close to commit a new version with new features and fixes, and now that rev 1010 is out I want to fix MCP too.

BTW Which modules are you using? I'm thinking about merging Civic Reforms, In the Beginning and Jewels of the Land into one because it would be easier to mod and balance things.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Maybe this one is enough and it should compete with the trader company/ies.

You're right. I also had some feelings like that, just

That logo won't work when shrunk down.

We're still in the brainstorming phase and I'm not sticking to any particular choice, so feel free to suggest others



Why not? I can imagine an event spawning barbarian mechs

Good


However don't expect new corporations any time soon. I am close to commit a new version with new features and fixes, and now that rev 1010 is out I want to fix MCP too.

BTW Which modules are you using? I'm thinking about merging Civic Reforms, In the Beginning and Jewels of the Land into one because it would be easier to mod and balance things.

I would suggest not to merge mods so different. People might like only civics and not other features or hate civics and love everything else. Just an advice, the modmod is yours [emoji4]

 

[GreedyManul]

That logo won't work when shrunk down.

Well, dang. Maybe there's something else I can find.

We're still in the brainstorming phase and I'm not sticking to any particular choice, so feel free to suggest others

Why not? I can imagine an event spawning barbarian mechs

Fund it.

Good

However don't expect new corporations any time soon. I am close to commit a new version with new features and fixes, and now that rev 1010 is out I want to fix MCP too.

IT'S ALREADY UP!?

BTW Which modules are you using? I'm thinking about merging Civic Reforms, In the Beginning and Jewels of the Land into one because it would be easier to mod and balance things.

Civic reforms exclusively. I wanna go as barebones as possible, and I'm reluctant about testing out the rest.

I would suggest not to merge mods so different. People might like only civics and not other features or hate civics and love everything else. Just an advice, the modmod is yours [emoji4]

What 45° said, tbh.

 

[<Nexus>]

I would suggest not to merge mods so different. People might like only civics and not other features or hate civics and love everything else. Just an advice, the modmod is yours [emoji4]

Okay, than I'll stay this way, at least for now...

 

[<Nexus>]

However, that will mean that there shall be no interaction between the different modules. If I'm going to add these corporations, they will have to be a new module, which means they cannot be affected by other modules (like new corp. buildings getting bonus/penalty from new/modified civics). That makes design much harder; that's why I was considering the merge. At least for Civics and In the Beginning. Jewels is not enough stable; I still wanna work on it and improve it.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

However, that will mean that there shall be no interaction between the different modules. If I'm going to add these corporations, they will have to be a new module, which means they cannot be affected by other modules (like new corp. buildings getting bonus/penalty from new/modified civics). That makes design much harder; that's why I was considering the merge. At least for Civics and In the Beginning. Jewels is not enough stable; I still wanna work on it and improve it.

I haven't checked In The Beginning but I like your civic mod. What about incorporating it in the main mod? As an option of course and you will maintain control over it.

We could also merge the planned Active Senate option with it, if you like.

 

[<Nexus>]

I haven't checked In The Beginning but I like your civic mod. What about incorporating it in the main mod? As an option of course and you will maintain control over it.

We could also merge the planned Active Senate option with it, if you like.

It really honors me and is tempting to become a sort of "part of the team"...
On the other hand I enjoy my independence and I don't need to learn how to use SVN properly on a portable device. Or would I just send you an archive and you would merge it?
Anyway, you will have to discuss it with the rest of the team first. So return to this later IMO.

An other solution may be to try gamoptions.xml modularity. AFAIK it is also modular (I tried something long ago, just don't clearly remember).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

It really honors me and is tempting to become a sort of "part of the team"...
On the other hand I enjoy my independence and I don't need to learn how to use SVN properly on a portable device. Or would I just send you an archive and you would merge it?
Anyway, you will have to discuss it with the rest of the team first. So return to this later IMO.

An other solution may be to try gamoptions.xml modularity. AFAIK it is also modular (I tried something long ago, just don't clearly remember).

You can be part of the team (without "sort of"). I prefer to wait for Vokarya opinion but I think you've proved your ability and I don't think there's any problem with you joining the team. I was actually thinking about it some time ago.
About SVN, it is really pretty easy. I could add your files but I'd prefer you to do it. I don't know about gameoptions modularity and I can't check how easy/hard it might be. Well, think about it and let me know.

 

[<Nexus>]

You can be part of the team (without "sort of"). I prefer to wait for Vokarya opinion but I think you've proved your ability and I don't think there's any problem with you joining the team. I was actually thinking about it some time ago.

Well... Thank you. I am most honored to hear that.

About SVN, it is really pretty easy. I could add your files but I'd prefer you to do it. I don't know about gameoptions modularity and I can't check how easy/hard it might be. Well, think about it and let me know.

Okay, than. Just wait till you see the new version of Civics and you'll see if you still like it or not

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oooh, new civics/new civic effects? AND2 just keeps getting better.

 

[<Nexus>]

So I made an excel sheet of the corporations maintenance modifiers:

category <iCorporationMaintenanceModifier> <iRealCorporationMaintenanceModifier>
Coinage Economy 0 -110
Mercantile Economy 0 -80
Free Market Economy -10 -85
Planned Economy 0 -100
Corportist Economy -25 -75
Regulated Economy 10 -115
Green Economy 50 -130
Guilds Labor -33 -105
Android (Post-Scarecity) Labor 0 -50
Private Wellfare 5 -95
Corporate Wellfare -35 -85
Subsidized Wellfare 15 -110
Socialized Wellfare 15 -110
Superhuman Wellfare 0 -100
Paradise Wellfare 0 -100
Mainstreem Media Media -20 0
Media Regulation Media -10 0

My trouble is still the existence of two different values. Does anyone know how they work and interact with each other?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I haven't checked the code but I suppose they are different depending if you're using Realistic Corporations or not.