More Spells Brainstorming

I really like the idea of more spells that don't boost combat units in the stack, but instead do damage directly or boost the caster. I don't want casters to always be a third wheel religated to just boosting your normal army, but to be a weapon on their own.

True, the lack of direct damage needs to be patched up, but be careful not to completely neglect the (de)buffing aspect of casters, or you'll just end up with another kind of one trick pony. Personally, I'd let the sphere "decide" what kind of spells it should have. For example, the elemental spheres and Force obviously lend themselves well for damage spells, with a (de)buff or utility thrown in here and there. Spheres like Spirit, Law, Life and Shadow really should have some kickass buffs and maybe some situational damage spells (much like the anti-undead spell in Life right now). These kind of spells are silly on their own, but get much more interesting as an "added bonus". Spheres like Entropy, Death and possibly even Nature have a strong debuffing flavor to me. Then there's the hard ones like Dimension, Metamagic, Sun, Chaos, Mind,... can be a bit of everything. Summons of course also fit everywhere, but there's no lack of them at the moment so we can safely ignore them.

This is just my 2 cents, of course, and you guys probably thought of all those things already :) Just wanted to spell it out, because I personally really like having a single archmage in my "normal" army, who can buff them into the stratosphere and currently you need a lot of spheres mastered to do that (IMHO). If we were to both add a lot of damage spells and buff the buffs (;)) then an Archmage would really be just that: a very powerful, very experienced, very versatile mage who is scary on his own and even scarier in an army. It takes so bloody long and it takes so much planning ahead to get them, they should be much scarier than they are now (again, IMHO).
 
(d) Fire III, get some kind of Fire Immunity promo, which hey, means immunity to fire damage, but also the ability to walk through fiery areas like orcs and demons. It's a minor thing, but at least fits the suggested theme that not only might you have water walkers, stone walkers, flying guys, but also guys who can traverse hell terrain etc. very well.

Ah, this reminds me.


Another Tier II Fire spell

Flame Shield
------------------
Makes the caster completely immune to fire, and causes a small amount of fire damage to units in adjacent tiles each turn. Once cast, permanant until cancelled.
 
I dislike the thought to have to scroll down pages of spells on my lvl 6 adept. And if you dislike the idea of just one spell per level (which doesnt excludes 1+ spells per tier) there still might be the option to make several or all magic areas exclude others. Like life makes your mage unable to get death spells and so on.

I like the idea of upgradeable spells though. Skeletons only is sooo boring. I want Skeletal archers, Wights and Skeletalriders or Chariots (perhaps even skeletal mages that only have one or two spells(if they have spells at all) but a stronger ranged attack than archers).

At last i want to say that those spells you made up all sound very good and that there are very nice ideas among them. Those unique spells like the life summon that helps one unit survive for example is very interesting. Direct damaging spells are nice too. Some of those spells are in my oppinion a bit overpowered though and could need some sideeffects. Especially a Chaos III or Entropy III spell shuldnt be all benefitial.

Thanks for your time
 
I was thinking about a little bit different system - not to add more spells for single magic class but add spells which require more mana types - example : enchantment + creation - spell Brilliant Beauty - creates statue/monument of unbelievable beaty in the city which adds +2:culture:, +1:), +3:commerce:
 
I dislike the thought to have to scroll down pages of spells on my lvl 6 adept. And if you dislike the idea of just one spell per level (which doesnt excludes 1+ spells per tier) there still might be the option to make several or all magic areas exclude others. Like life makes your mage unable to get death spells and so on.

Huh. I thought I'd already posted about this, but if so I don't know where...

I strongly agree. For me it's more about opportunity costs and game-play than any aversion to scrolling. Multiple spells per level seems too easy, and uninteresting. I'd rather the unit had to spend some xp to "earn" each spell. (Though there could be exceptions.) Wizards are supposed to be interesting characters, and more spells could make them more interesting by allowing more variety between mages. More differentiation or even specialization*.

However, if every mage has large smorgasbord of spells that's likely to lead to each mage being able to do more or less the same thing. It's smart game-play: Some direct damage spells, some boosting, some "cursing", etc. so you've an appropriate spell no matter the situation. But when every mage is capable of the same general results, differing only in special effects and tertiary details... I don't think that's interesting or fun.

Excluding spheres/spells:

IMO FfH mages already tend too much toward "sameyness," with players often cherry-picking among the Spheres for the best spells. Forcing exclusive choices between sphere and/or spells would help a lot with that. (My LAN group generally even plays with some exclusive mana choices, operating on the civ level. Each civ gets it's starting spheres and can pick two more before the game. Unless you capture/build another source, you stick with those 5 spheres.)

EDIT:
*How would specialization work? Ideally I think there'd be new XML prereq tags. (For example, a prereq that counts the # of promotions of a pre-defined type. So the promotion allowing the spell "You're all dead!" might, along with any other prereqs, require any 5 "DEATH_SPELL" promotions.) Short of that... each module could contain its own system of specialization. But I can't think of anything that'd allow modules to work well together. Any specialization would be contained within branching lines corresponding to each module.
 
I was thinking about a little bit different system - not to add more spells for single magic class but add spells which require more mana types - example : enchantment + creation - spell Brilliant Beauty - creates statue/monument of unbelievable beaty in the city which adds +2:culture:, +1:), +3:commerce:

That concept in general (having 2 or 3 prerequisite types of mana to be able to pick a certain spell) sounds great. Wonder how hard it would be? Alternately if you had to have picked promos to master one spell of each sphere before doing one of combined spheres, that would probably be easy, as many promotion choices are unlocked by needing several prerequisites (i.e., Subdue Beasts requires Combat 3 and Subdue Animals... your Brilliant Beauty could require Enchantment I and Creation I on the caster before picking it).

Again, if this ends up a possible route, obvious choices start to present themselves like if you have access to all our elements of air/earth/fire/water, maybe you have a temporary "Protection from Elements" buff spell available that protects your stack from those sorts of damage (anything with fire affinity, earth affinity, air and maybe lightning affinity, cold may have to substitute for water, think "Tsunami"). Maybe it fades as fast as Blur, maybe it has a cooldown to prevent overuse, maybe it has to be up at the archmage level to prevent it being a support-mage's favourite spell, whatever.
 
That concept in general (having 2 or 3 prerequisite types of mana to be able to pick a certain spell) sounds great. Wonder how hard it would be?

PromotionInfos already has <PrereqBonusANDs/>, so it's just a matter of making the spells.
 
EDIT:
*How would specialization work? Ideally I think there'd be new XML prereq tags. (For example, a prereq that counts the # of promotions of a pre-defined type. So the promotion allowing the spell "You're all dead!" might, along with any other prereqs, require any 5 "DEATH_SPELL" promotions.) Short of that... each module could contain its own system of specialization. But I can't think of anything that'd allow modules to work well together. Any specialization would be contained within branching lines corresponding to each module.

Alternatively, for the specialization you could just require a certain amount of mana to gain access to a certain spell. To take your example, the "You're all dead!" spell might require 5 Death Mana. This would have the following effects (that I can think of right now):

- The player that uses magic just for support can still diversify his mana choices to gain all the "weak" buffs and utility. Weak is relative of course, even with only one mana node an Archmage should be able to pull his weight.

- The player who focuses on magic to get most of the work done can focus on one or two types of mana in particular. An Archmage can then still have some versatility (not as much as the real "generalist"), but also have one or two of the "Oh my god there's an Archmage in my borders where is my army"-spells.

The drawback would be that the magic focused civ from the second example would have (Arch)mages that are all rather alike, because they are focused on certain spheres of magic. But then again that was kind of the effect you were going for, no?

EDIT: also, you probably want to feel the effect of the focused mana-types at the mage-level, so that would mean that you have to design a *lot* of spells with varying amounts of power. Have fun balancing the "uber" level 2 spells versus the "basic" level 3 spells ;) You would have the same problem with promotions though.
 
Having to pick and choose spells via spending promotions on them is a nice idea in theory, but under the current system, mages level up so slowly (and are so combat-incapable) that you'd never really get anywhere.

Forgive another D&D addition, but I think it'd be nice for arcane units to get two spell choices rather than one, per level up. Of course, how to stop them just spending that on two combat promotions is a tricky matter.


However, that aside, adding more spells to everything would still help with the issue of people always picking the same spheres. Since every single sphere would offer so much, hopefully there wouldn't really be one clear winner in terms of best sphere.

I think we can all agree that right now, some spheres (Enchantment, death) are more equal than others (law, spirit)
 
Having to pick and choose spells via spending promotions on them is a nice idea in theory, but under the current system, mages level up so slowly (and are so combat-incapable) that you'd never really get anywhere.

Depends on your definition of "anywhere."

However, that aside, adding more spells to everything would still help with the issue of people always picking the same spheres. Since every single sphere would offer so much, hopefully there wouldn't really be one clear winner in terms of best sphere.

Sure... but then the danger that your choices don't really matter increases.

Maybe I've just got one point, and it's we should keep in mind that while adding a bunch of spells is a fix for certain problems, it could add or exacerbate others.
 
Forgive another D&D addition, but I think it'd be nice for arcane units to get two spell choices rather than one, per level up. Of course, how to stop them just spending that on two combat promotions is a tricky matter.

Wouldn't that problem partially solve itself when summons aren't the be all end all solution to everything anymore? This is at the moment the only reason I pick the combat promotions for mages. Additionaly, I think I've said it before somewhere (somewhere in a thread about ranged damage rebalance), but I think it'd be neat if basic arcane units were just 0/1 Strength units. Even less reason to pick the 20% strength bonus then. And it would make the Amurite Battlemages (who obviously wouldn't be 0/1 units) really quite something :)
 
And, that said, some Law Sphere ideas


Tier I
-----------

Valor
--------
because frankly, an xp boosting spell is useless at tier 3, but a godsend at tier I. Needs toning down a bit though. I'd say make it....

+25% xp from battle
+1 xp per battle
50% chance to wear off per turn (if not maintained by caster in stack)



Civil Obedience
----------------
Caster maintained city buff. Oppresses population.
Gives:
-25% maintenance
+2 :)
-30% :gp:
-30% :culture:

Really, I think it would be better to reduce unhappiness, rather than increasing happiness, but that wouldn't be good for the calabim, which would be rather unfitting.


Loyalty
----------
Pretty much as it is now, but loyalty would become a lot more useful with the mind spells I mentioned earlier, as it'd have more things to counter.



II
----------


Banishment
------------
More fitting for law, than life. Give life back Destroy undead, and let it only affect undead again. This one would only affect demons and angels, and only enemy units. Basically, anything not of this world. Otherwise, as it was. Just does AOE holy damage.


Bonds of Honor
-----------------
1 radius AOE. Affects all units, friend or foe. All affected units recieve -100% withdrawal chance 75% chance to wear off per turn.


Oath of Protection
-------------------
Turns one friendly unit in the stack, into a guardian.
The unit gains a promotion which has the following effect

+50% defense strength
Held
Guardsman
heals 10% after combat
+1 first strikes
+2 visibility range
+2 ranged attack strength
+20% ranged damage cap

A unit must be at least level 5 to be a valid target, just so you can't crank out longbowmen in a new city and cast it on them. Cannot affect the caster. If there's more than one valid unit in the stack, will simply target the strongest.
Doesn't increase range, so the ranged buffs will only affect an archer.


III
----------

Host of the Einherjar
---------------------
They deserve better than T2.
Exactly the same as the T2 spell, but powered up. 6 base strength, +6 Holy. And they start with guardsman.


Unyielding Order
----------------------
Screw those order priests. We need UO as a Tier III law spell


Repentance of Sinners
--------------------------
Resistable AOE dominate-esque effect.
Affects only living units belonging to evil civilisations who you are at war with.
It's a mind effect, so loyalty, clear mind, etc, make it less likely to work.

Affected units join you, not as minions of the caster, but as full permanant units. However, they start enraged, and with a promotion that has a 50% chance to kill the user per turn. Hence, they're inevitably only temporary soldiers


Hand of Justice
------------------
Fairly simple. A Holy element version of the dwarven Druid spell, Crush. Massive damage to one stack.
 
Sure... but then the danger that your choices don't really matter increases.

I think the general idea should be to avoid too much duplication of functionality, but have a little where it seems needed.

For example, a problem I see is that elemental resistances aren't worth much, because there aren't that many elemental damage spells early on. Adding several spells that are basically clones of each other with different elements, for T1, would solve two problems at once.

1. Mages get a bit more direct combat utility

2. Magic resistance, built in racial resistances, and resistance boosting gear/spells become worthwhile additions.

Outside of that kind of duplication, I'm thinking most spheres should be relatively unique. I don't think there's much risk of choices ceasing to matter, in terms of everything being the same

There's a balance to be struck, and discussion to be had, of course. One good point is that adding new spells is exceptionally easy, and thanks to odalrick, works perfectly in modules. So it should be fairly possible for people to remove/ignore ones they don't like.
 
@Tarquelne : Im sorry if i used your thoughts and ideas.

As for the specialization problem there could be an easy but extensive solution. You could evolve your lvl 2 adept for example in a special kind of adept depending what prerequired mana you have and open up a special upgrading branch for this unit on the other hand you would have to do this for every single UU too...
 
I'd really like to have Unyielding Order not necessarily remove unhappiness, but make it not matter. Like, in an UO city you have have 20 unhappy and 15 happy but all of the citizens are still working anyways.

Also, that's been my major hurdle so far - do I want to do it so that each mage gets a page of spells, or set it so multiple spells are available and they all still work in the tiers?

I'm tempted to pull the Combat promotions from mages and then make it far easier for them to level up, then do the spells indiviudally. I mean, perhaps to the point where mages level up four times faster than standard units (requiring four times the current XP to upgrade) and then have say: Death Adept as a promotion that unlocks three spells as potential upgrade options and allows Death Mage with Channeling 2.
 
A debate on druids reminded me of this ide for a spell

Divination II:

crystal ball
Have a 50% probability to temporarily removing the marksman-promotion to any unit within radius 2 and replace it with 'detected' promotion. The detected promotion forces the assasin (or that alike) to
defend first against any attack. The spell is resistable.
---

This spell is supposed to be a pure assasin counter.
 
I am planning to do a spell revamp in my amurite enhancement for regular FFH. However, I'll share a few of the ideas that i've had - feel free to use them yourself. On the other hand, I am somewhat against gaining multiple spells per sphere - but not at all against gaining more spells from knowing several spheres. Doesn't match what I have in amurite enhancement right now, as I have refined my ideas some.

Organized according to the techs that unlock them.

Elementalism:
Air:
Air 1 - Lightning bolt, direct damage spell, 5% damage, capped at 20%, targets strongest unit. With Air 2, boosted to 10% damage, capped at 40%. With Air 3, boosted to 20% damage, capped at 60%.
Air 2 - Flight, grants the caster the flying promotion, and if flying promotion is currently had, the ability to land as well. Much more useful than water walking to hop onto a mountain or the water to get away from assasins and those trying to kill you.
Air 3 - Maelstrom. Same as current, except does 10% damage and is uncapped.
Fire:
Fire 1 - same as current, but vastly increase the chance of the initial smoke to become a fire (say, 75% chance per turn to become a fire, 25% chance to dissapate, further smoke acts as normal)
Fire 2 - Fireball, same as current, but add +1 fire aptitude (basically affinity, but capped to giving that boost as long as you have 1 source of fire mana, additional fire mana doesn't affect it)
Fire 3 - Incinerate, does 60% damage to defender (uncapped), and 5-10% damage to other units in stack (capped at 20 or 40%)
Water:
Water 1 - spring, as is
Water 2 - summon minor water elemental. Works same as regular water elemental, but starts strength 4 +1 water affinity, and starts with the weak promotion. If you have tower of elements, the weak promotion is removed, and it splits upon death. Water walking is going to be an equipment available with the enchantment changes that I am making
Water 3 - summon water elemental, as is
Earth:
Earth 1 - wall of stone, as is
Earth 2 - create potion of stoneskin. Potion has 10 or 25% chance to wear off after each use, can be picked up by other units, applies stoneskin promotion upon use.
Earth 3 - summon earth elemental, as is
Ice:
all as is

In addition to the spell changes, if a unit has fire 2, it grants +1 fire strength, and if it has fire 3, it gets +1 fire strength (stacking, so an archmage with fire 1-3 would have +2 fire strength), and same for the other spell spheres. Also, if you have fire 3, ice 3, air 3, earth 3, and water 3, you could learn "Master of the Elements", which allows the casting of a spell elemental bolts, which creates 3-4 fireballs that have +1 elemental aptitude and +1 elemental affinity (so if you have 3 fire nodes, 2 air nodes, 1 water, 1 earth, 0 ice, it would be strength 2 +2 cold, +3 lightning, +4 fire).

In addition, possibility to have spell spheres combine, so if you have air 2 and fire 2, you can throw a firebolt instead of a fireball, which has +4 fire, +2 fire aptitude, and +2 air aptitude. Fire 3 + Air 3 would allow firestorm, a spell with range 1 instead of 2, causes 20% uncapped damage. Water 1 and Air 1 would allow thunderstorm, which summons a non-combat unit with movement 5, flying, and the ability to put out all flames and smoke in a two square radius upon casting (casting kills the storm), and does 5% cold damage (capped at 10-20%) to all units within 1 square.

Divination:
Life:
all as is
Spirit:
Spirit 1 - courage, as is
Spirit 2 - hope, as is
Spirit 3 - Spiritual Center. Creates building, building vanishes upon caster leaving, +100% great person growth rate, +10 culture, +5 happy, +25% or +50% research, gold, and culture. Very powerful spell, but you're wasting an archmage sitting in a city to get it, so it better be powerful.
Mind:
Mind 1 - inspiration, as is
Mind 2 - charm person, as is
Mind 3 - dominate, doesn't remove upon faliure
Sun:
all as is
Law:
Law 1 - I like warkirby's idea for civil obedience
Law 2 - valor, taken from law 1
Law 3 - summon Host of Einherjar - 6 strength +4 holy, +1 law mana affinity (grants +holy damage), starts with guardsman and its current mechanics

note - I haven't put in as much thought here as in the elemental sphere.

Necromancy:
Death:
As is - I feel death is fine and what all spheres should look to be equal to
Chaos:
I rarely use chaos, so no ideas here
Entropy:
same as chaos
Shadow:
Shadow 1 - blur, as is, useful spell
Shadow 2 - shadowwalk, change it so it matchs the description, it ignores all terrain defenses, and all city defenses. So attacking an axman in a city on a hill with walls and palisade would be just like attacking an axman on plains (except the axman gets the wall defender promotion in FF, not so in FFH), but attacking an archer in a city, the archer would still gain its +25% city defense.
Dimensional:
I am not including dimensional in my mod

Alteration:
Enchantment:
I am planning to do a revamp of the entire enchantment line, if you want more info, check out my thread.
Body:
all as is
Nature:
Nature 1 - barkskin, provides promotion to entire stack, +1 defense, +10% heal rate, 50% chance to wear off each turn.
Nature 2 - Vitalize, same as nature 3 now, except casting delay
Nature 3 - Guardian vines, just like magister has been asking for for so long
Creation:
Creation 1 - as is
Creation 2 - nothing by itself. Creation 2 + fire 2 would allow for the construction of salamanders (permanent summons, 2 strength +2 fire combat), and if it also has enchantment 2, it grants +2 fire aptitude. Look in bestiary for ideas for further combinations.
Creation 3 - nothing by itself. Similar to creation 2 though, it would allow for permanent summons, but also allow further refinement. So creation 3 + fire 3 would create a fire wyrm, strength 6 +4 fire. Adding in nature 3 would increase its base strength by +4. Add in body 3 would increase its base strength by +2, but also increase movement by 1 and add blitz. Adding enchantment 3 would give it +1 fire affinity. Additional combinations optional, feel free to go wild though.
Force:
Not including force in my enhancement, no thoughts on it

Sorcery:
Metamagic:
Metamagic 1 - magic missile, strength 2 summon. Combining with any other level 1 spell adds +1 aptitude for that mana type (so metamagic 1 and fire 1 adds +1 fire aptitude, etc.). With metamagic 2, summons 2, metamagic 3, summons 4.
Metamagic 2 - as is
Metamagic 3 - Summon Djinn - as is, but add +1 aptitude for all mana types.
 
So I like the idea of multiple spells at each tier in each sphere. But as others mentioned there is a lot to consider: balance, AI using them effectively, keeping each sphere different. I am conflicted, because although I like options I don't necessarily want every option available all the time. So I probably would want the option to be made when picking promotions, so that instead of having to pick a sphere tier promotion that gives you all the spells associated with that sphere and tier, instead you have a variety of spells to learn and you pick a promotion that gives you a single specific spell.

Also, a lot of the ideas being thrown out seem to be overpowered. If mages are made too powerful, there won't be any reason to build other unit types. I see a mage summon a guardsman unit to protect itself from assassins, pelt the enemy with direct damage, and then send in its buffed attack summon to deal the death blow. And this is potentially all from one mage. It might be best to keep the limit of one spell per promotion and if you want more variety, you have to build more mages.

Finally, I would like to defend the poor Vitalize spell that everyone seems to think is underpowered. Yes, when you think only in the short term of a single combat or a single war Vitalize appears weak. But I tend to play builder style and really like at least one caster that can cast it. Vitalize gives your cities more food which in the long run means more citizens. More citizens means more commerce, production, and/or great persons. More commerce means better research. Better research means more advanced units. More production means quicker builds and therefore a bigger army. So ultimately Vitalize can give you bigger and more advanced armies, and that will win wars just as well as, if not better than, the more combat oriented third tier spells.
 
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