1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

More Traits

Discussion in 'C2C mod mods' started by majaczek, May 14, 2016.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    I am in the middle of finishing the stuff Kornifere posted. I had hopped to have it done and posted already but I discovered I had missed half the buildings while testing :(.

    Plus the problem with the tech tree which is turning into a maths paper to convince Platyping there is a problem.

    With a bit of luck I should be able to get to these traits this weekend.
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Keep in mind I did ask you to spreadsheet your project plan so I could read it without having to mess with my file sets or interpret xml to look at your work.
     
  3. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    Umm It would be hard to spreadsheet this (for me), sorry. But I suppose civilopedia is enough to check what I inserted, just start game (replacement doesn't work for civilopedia before starting game). Just some entries is displayed wrong (the new ones), but you see there are them.

    It's fully modular. Do I have too prepare the spreadsheets? I though what I did is enough. XML can be loaded ingame and it doesn't mess with the rest of the mod. It can be read a bit, but I know xml is not friendly for this. But it nicely worked in civilopedia, just the minor glitch you have to start the game for replacement to work.

    If you really think the spreadsheet is crucial, I may do it, but I very dislike the idea...

    EDIT: Sorry, now I understand why you don't like to read XML, since my file has 421518 characters, so it would be hard, especially if it is in XML (there are a few better markup languages). But why You are reluctant to use civilopedia? I may do the spreadsheets but I think they won't help much (and I would need to update spreadsheet if the xml changes from whatever reason).

    Note: city start size, and city start culture are additive constant, but in civilopedia it shows wrongly as percents. Rest are enough good to read.

    EDIT: If I really HAVE TO make spreadsheet, please tell me early, if I only SHOULD, please don't make me do it. Sorry if this sounds rude, I'm not native speaker of english, but hope you get the point.


    EDIT: I prefer not to play before it is finished, especially because I worry I need to break save games compability, because of type tags value I given new traits (ones with tier 2+), which include "_MAJACZEK_" because I followed style from ls612 which was good for optional module, not for trunk. I could rid off these if we are going to add this to trunk, but now I have not exactly clean coded (but it works).
    EDIT: I mean, I think, you would make clean code and don't allow "majaczek" here and there if it isn't really needed. I used it in ReplacementID (needed) and in Type of new traits (not needed).

    I am calm, but beg you to do review of most spoiled (or not fixed) things in my modmod...

    EDIT: I searched a way to automatically (or half-automatcally) convert Civ4's xml to excel but found nothing reliable :(
    EDIT: I know why :( I think I couldn't nicely fit it to the 2d spreadsheet (even if taking a spreadsheet for each trait). Maybe I should just copy civilipedia text? but then you can see by yourselves in civilipedia. Note that somebody need to start game to see tier 1 traits properly (it's how replace works, same was in ls612 traits). I'd like to polish them enough it can get to trunk :|
     
  4. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    Oooh yes! I found a way to make it into spreadsheet.
    Here is the link

    Hopefully there are no errors in format. I used xml to json converter then json to csv converter :)
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I don't like to mess with my fileset with temporary adjustments because that can easily lead to big errors when I commit changes to the SVN. So replacing with modifications I'm not intending (yet) to include on the SVN is a dangerous thing for me.

    EDIT: It'll take me a while to analyze that spreadsheet since it's not much more streamlined than just redistributing xml values.
     
  6. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    it would be better to watch if you press "temporary filter". I Hope that You finish soon, because I don't really want to continue, before the review :(

    EDIT: changed my mind, I would polish a few things today :|
     
  7. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
  8. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Ok, will take some time to review this thoroughly.

    BUT, first points of feedback:

    1)Building construction modifiers... as you progress through the tiers, you're incrementally adding more and more, building up to 300%. I'm not saying that's 'bad' per se, but by the time you can get to the 3d tier, many of them may be well past the point of being pertinent.

    2) You would not want Armed Guard promos as free to anything. The line is intended to eliminate the ability to attack for those units. I'd also be reluctant to assign any promotions above iLinePriority 1 for free to any units that would not also be receiving the Line Priorities below that on the same Promotionline. I'm not SURE that's an issue but it looked like it might be. I would be reluctant to give more than one free promotion per trait and most of those promotions I would give from traits I'd probably make unique ones for but I can't blame you for not.

    3) Level experience modifier I think gets too strong, particularly with the combination of Philosophical and Charismatic. The huge buildup of that value on Philosophical that then vanishes in further progression on the third tier is... odd. This is one of the most powerful and valuable of traits tags entirely. A little goes a long ways and I would advise against letting a player potentially get more than a -75% benefit in total.

    4) IMO FAR too strong on the happiness modifiers per monastery on religious. The core one has a bonus of 2 each, so a tiered one should have 1 each at each level, making for +3 happiness per monastery at the third tier. Even that would be strong but it would make a lot more sense than a total of +9 per monastery total by the end (+2/+2/+5)

    5) I would seek to create a bit more balance on the specialist bonuses and consider including engineers for industrious. Again, we're talking about cumulative benefits on the yield modifiers there so +1 each level would be more than sufficient or it would rapidly imbalance things.

    6) iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier is also cumulative and gets far too strong even if you weren't listing the values you put in place as being cumulative. This is a modifier to production when constructing buildings when the city has the state religion... A total of +122% production in such cities strikes me as extremely excessive.

    Ok, that's enough for today.
     
  10. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    1) I had no idea what to build instead, I might also not give construction modifiers for 3rd tier at all, but maybe leave that way, since you may want to build more cities?
    2) it's almost good about about these promotionlines, I watched the tree. I should recheck Armed Guard, please say more about armed guard?
    3) I also worried about those percents XP modifier. Nice to know that Charismatic is good enough :)
    4) So should I give +1/+2/+3 ?
    5) I'll recheck.
    6) not so excessive, anyway no more than +122% hammers, but I may "fix" it if you suggest.

    EDIT: Did you checked Imperialistic and Expansive? they give premmies for each town build, but I know it is much so I thought to penalize them a bit... note that those premies are additive and in integer - no percents

    EDIT: notice that specialists with "MASTER" aren't ones with "GREAT". They describe 5 specialists which aren't great people (but without bonuses). some traits gives Master People every era...
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    I think he meant +1/+1/+1, since they are cumulative the effect would be +1/+2/+3.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I understand. That's one of the more intense things to evaluate. This is one of the reasons I wanted to get buildings into various categories. We had someone help with that task recently, even if it may be a little out of date now.

    Pepper... where are we with categorizing buildings so as to assist with this portion of the traits production modifiers?

    Armed Guard would be a horrible thing to give to all of any given category of units because it's intended to be a very path dedicating promotionline. Again, it removes the unit's ability to attack but replaces that with very impressive defensive bonuses. I plan some interesting AI to work with this promotionline for AI to dedicate some units to being protective guards for other units, a good counter to the potshots against sensitive targets that strike teams and criminals can make. And can also make for a good secondary route to bolster defenses in a city as well.

    I don't mind Philosophical having some... makes sense. I'd just not make the modifier anywhere near as strong as Charismatic. And you've GOT to understand what DH just tried to clarify. If you give -10% to the first tier, then -20% to the second tier, you have a total of -30% once you have both traits! Therefore it is NOT bad design to say -10% to first tier, -10% to second tier, -10% to third tier so that it ends up being -30% overall. Not saying this is the suggested progression but understanding the cumulative math of trait tiers (which works the same with promotions by the way) would help you get more appropriate values.

    That's a hell of a huge modifier when you consider it applies to ALL buildings simply for having the state religion in the city. Then when you factor in that ONLY those leaders will get this modifier and be constructing every building in their nation more than twice as fast as all rivals... that becomes a bit OP imo - though it depends on how valuable other aspects of other traits are.

    I haven't evaluated trait by trait yet but rather tag by tag and I'm only about 1/4 into that if I'm guessing. I would then look at each trait to get an idea of balance between them. You probably have some good ideas so at the moment I'm just looking at how you've worked with tags to spot any potential problems or dramatic imbalances there.


    I'd actually suggest that Joe look at this too. He'd probably have some good insights as well.

    So those are free 'heritage' specialists that aren't quite as powerful as the original ones you get from committing a GP to a 'heritage' specialist in the city right? Probably a good concept.
     
  13. pepper2000

    pepper2000 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Nothing since what I posted a few months ago.

    Majaczek:the relevant discussion Thunderbrd is referring to is here:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=561881&page=2

    That is a spreadsheet with most regular buildings that were in C2C as of February 2016. They are sorted by category, so hopefully it will help you find which buildings you want to adjust for new traits. Although I don't have immediate plans to update the spreadsheet, I am happy to take another look if you have specific needs that it doesn't meet now.
     
  14. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
  15. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    expansive is +2/+4/+6 to starting city size...
    imperialistic is +3/+5/+9 to starting city size...

    Imbalanced? (with other traits)

    note they are impure (penalized another way)
     
  16. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    new version https://www.dropbox.com/s/4i5l227ppclg0sj/majaczek_C2C_137_beta.7z?dl=0

    changed expansive and imperialist

    expansive is +1/+2/+3
    imperialistic is +2/+3/+5

    I won't cut more, but I may penalize them :p

    EDIT: IDK if it is properly role-based, but I penalized both - new package https://www.dropbox.com/s/njhzdidgwdrrp10/majaczek_C2C_138_beta.7z?dl=0

    new sheet (only expansive and imperialist changed) https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B86cxlMj84asSVBfZFZNNzFxWVE or https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B86cxlMj84asR2dvQVBncUdwWkU
     
  17. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3,485
    I really don't think traits should be sooooo rediciously overpowered :eek:
     
  18. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
    Faustmouse - explain please?
    I wanted all traits to be very strong, but similair in power.
    Yeah, the starting city size is a great thing, but they are there for a reason?
    I would like to have Ideas how to powerup other traits or how to penalize expansive and imperialist..
     
  19. majaczek

    majaczek Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    282
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    +1/+2/+3 what exactly?
     

Share This Page