Most disappointing wonder?

[mitsho]

It absolutely makes a difference. You don't know if the Volkshalle was even viable. But that of course is subjective. Additionally, a Giant Hall isn't that wondrous by itself, at least to me.

The Autobahn is more of a myth by itself as well, and it's not really a Nazi thing either. While it would be cool as a Improvement or general wonder, the Autobahn really is nothing more than a Highway (System).

That's why I suggested above the Yasukuni Shrine. It's something clearly nationalistic, it has quite a big cultural and political impact (even if the buildings itself aren't wonderous), it's not in Europe and it makes sense to have the Tourism effect (unlike f.e. the Volkshalle). Alternatively, any actually built skyscraper or other building/monument built in any autocratic state from Singapore, Kazahkstan, UAE, Uganda or South Africa would fit better. It doesn't have to be Nazi after all.

 

[Ryoga]

Dear sirs, this is a gargling bunch of absurdity. I pray to god modders will find a way of patching it up, if only the quote was already voice-acted, so it could be implemented seamlessly.

It is already voice acted and the mp3 file is there ready to be used.

 

[InsanelyApple]

or if it was just promo art like Michaelangelo's David for G&K.

Does anyone have this promo art? I can't remember it.

 

[Xandinho]

I did not like Prora
I believe Prora be connected to some ideology

 

[Bad Wolf]

The removal of a planned wonder is very disappointing.

And Prora is... questionable to say the least...

 

[DeutschDachs]

May as well have included that hotel north Korea is "building"

 

[Ryoga]

May as well have included that hotel north Korea is "building"

They finished it, or so they say.

 

[DeutschDachs]

They finished it, or so they say.

Ah, seems they have though it's yet to open. So perhaps even more fitting then

 

[PhilBowles]

If Prora's in, then why not EUR, near Rome? At least it had something interesting from an architectural and design standpoint.

Sadly, I suspect the answer is that since Autocracy is meant to represent fascism, and in popular imagination fascism = Nazis, (even though it originated in Italy) they wanted to use a German structure rather than an Italian one.

 

[Xandinho]

Prora could be replaced by the Aztec pyramid of the sun

 

[PhilBowles]

I'd say bland, not powerless. It's actually probably quite a good wonder. But it doesn't give you anything you can't get elsewise/changes the way you play, it's just more bang for your buck.

Fair enough, although I'm not sure I'd agree. If you want to go for it, you probably want to select certain beliefs you might not otherwise, and likely Piety when you might not otherwise go for that, in the same way that you'd look at settling sites you otherwise wouldn't if you wanted Petra (and maybe some of the mountain Wonders, although usually you'd want a mountain site for an Observatory anyway). I'm not sure that many Wonders can be said to change your playstyle drastically.

Plus, by that criterion I think The Red Fort gets the thumbs down - it does something a Wonder already in the game currently does, and that's a Wonder with marginal utility or effect on the way you play.

And I already hate the missionary spam of the AI personally...

In my current game the Ottomans seem to be spamming missionaries but aren't actually doing anything with them, which is odd (though not as odd as the apparent new bug where civs seem able to declare war without cancelling existing DoFs - I've now had several cases where civs are listed simultaneously as both friends of and at war with me or another civ, complete with notifications "Your Declaration of Friendship with Polynesia has expired and needs to be renewed" in the middle of my war with Kamehameha).

I would prefer the Yasukuni Shrine in Japan as the Autocracy Wonder. It's got a cultural impact (but of course isn't the biggest architectoral awe) and though it doesn't necessary help tourism from other ideologies (see the complaints by the Chinese and all), I can overlook that. Or why not make a skyscraper in Singapore, Dubai or Astana the wonder? These countries for sure aren't democratic after all..

As far as the ideologies are concerned, Firaxis has settled on a specific association with fascism for Autocracy, even though there are plenty of non-fascist autocratic regimes. For what they want to represent, this is fair enough - none of the societies you mention were/are autocratic for ideological reasons. There's just a certain mismatch because the name of the policy tree was determined in vanilla, before the idea that it represented a specific ideology was introduced by the G&K modifiers.

The name of the ideology is already a skewed up, nonsensical thing. (How about Equality or just downright Communism?)

Same reason as Autocracy - the name came before the ideology system. "Equality" would be an odd one, since the tree's policies (like communism in practice rather than in theory) emphasise state control over the means of production (and communism is a name of one of the policies in the branch). Order = Communism is fine, it's a much better fit than Autocracy = fascism (or Freedom = democracy), since fascists represent a minority of autocratic government systems (and the policies that Freedom represents aren't necessarily closely linked to any specific governmental system) while there aren't many, if any, non-communist regimes that represent the same things as the Order policies

 

[PhilBowles]

Prora just feels unimpressive and utilitarian, designed to mechanically give as many working-class people this inconvenient lubrication they call a "vacation" at once so they can shut up and get back to work. It doesn't inspire awe or feel like a wonderous part of human achievement that deserves to be lauded throughout time, just a facility used to produce resort time like one would produce ovens or automobiles.

In fairness, the bolded part is probably precisely why it was chosen. More than the Volkshalle or the Italian structures, Prora does represent an autocratic mentality and that particular approach to stifling discontent.

 

[PhilBowles]

Does anyone have this promo art? I can't remember it.

I think it's the same art from the intro - I'm not sure myself, but the statue was suggested as a likely Wonder based on some image in the game files, and I think it was in the G&K "What We Know" thread for a while.

However, since people have mentioned a bunch of stuff in the files associated with Motherland Calls, it seems that it was a planned Wonder after all. Has anyone included "why was it removed?" in the BNW FAQs?

May as well have included that hotel north Korea is "building"

Wouldn't a North Korean Wonder be linked to Order rather than Autocracy?

Then again, a communist hereditary monarchy is without precedent elsewhere (not to mention ideologically incoherent), it doesn't really seem to fit anywhere.

 

[Ikael]

It absolutely makes a difference. You don't know if the Volkshalle was even viable. But that of course is subjective.

Well, Speer theorized that the Volkshalle was impossible to build in Berlin due to the berlinese ground being too muddy to sustain such a structure. In order to test it, he put the main "key" block of concrete, and measured how much it sunk into the ground before proceeding with the rest of the building. If the block would sink more than 2cm, Speer predicted that it would be impossible to build the rest of the thing.

It sunk 5cm. Hitler told Speer to proceed anyway, because screw physics, he wanted his megalomaniac building and silly laws of gravity were not going to stop him either way. Ironically enough, his war efforts brought this pet project of him to a halt, for they needed the steel and concrete employed in more pressing matters.

Additionally, a Giant Hall isn't that wondrous by itself, at least to me.

You people fail to account the ginormous proportions of this monstruous thing. Seriously, the Volkshalle would have been the biggest dome in the entire world, unlike any other structure. Some pics for reference of scale:

Volkshalle VS Brandenbur gate
Volkshalle VS regular humans on a nazi parade
Volkshalle VS the world

It is pretty much the definition of autocratic architecture: grandiose, inhumane, megalomaniac, "you are insignificant next to the state" type of building.

The Autobahn is more of a myth by itself as well, and it's not really a Nazi thing either. While it would be cool as a Improvement or general wonder, the Autobahn really is nothing more than a Highway (System).

You are right. The Autobahn, if anything, symbolized the resurgence of the German economy post WWII.

That's why I suggested above the Yasukuni Shrine. It's something clearly nationalistic, it has quite a big cultural and political impact (even if the buildings itself aren't wonderous), it's not in Europe and it makes sense to have the Tourism effect (unlike f.e. the Volkshalle).

That's actually a quite good candidate for an autocracy wonder, but I think that it could be too controversial for some (Chinese and Koreans, mainly), and if we try to be as accurate as possible, it wasn't built by an autocratic goverment either (Meiji-era Japan was not Imperial Japan yet). About the tourism effects, it would indeed serve this purpouse well, albeit the Volkshalle was built with a similar mindset too (a showcase of the German Reich architectonical prowess, built expressely to impress both locals and foreigners alike).

Alternatively, any actually built skyscraper or other building/monument built in any autocratic state from Singapore, Kazahkstan, UAE, Uganda or South Africa would fit better. It doesn't have to be Nazi after all.

That's another quite good option, In fact, the Skycrappers that Stalin planned were every bit as autocratic-like as the Volkshalle, and also quite grandiose. A pity that they were never built, either.

 

[mitsho]

Plus, by that criterion I think The Red Fort gets the thumbs down - it does something a Wonder already in the game currently does, and that's a Wonder with marginal utility or effect on the way you play.

True, but I normally play the GEM mod where the effect of the Kremlin has been replaced by a free 2nd ring for all cities (current and newly founded). That's why it didn't come to mind. In that light, I should've voted for the Red Fort.

And as for Borobodur, you do have some valid points. There are some interesting combos possible (for the human player at least), but I just feel they had some room here for more creativity.

As far as the ideologies are concerned, Firaxis has settled on a specific association with fascism for Autocracy, even though there are plenty of non-fascist autocratic regimes. For what they want to represent, this is fair enough - none of the societies you mention were/are autocratic for ideological reasons. There's just a certain mismatch because the name of the policy tree was determined in vanilla, before the idea that it represented a specific ideology was introduced by the G&K modifiers.

Well, Italian fascism is for sure included in the Autocracy Ideology (names of certain tenets) and I'd say Japanese WW2-era mentality is as well. Wasn't Kamikaze supposed to be a tenet? I'd say we are safe by including their ideology of their sea and empire covering the whole of East Asia as an autocratic ideology. We can argue whether the other regimes are autocratic in ideology, but some of the personality cults and heavy nationalism found in Central Asian Republics would probably count for it in my opinion...

But yes, they're not the best example. The Yasakuni Shrine however to this day is a hotspot of right wing memorial culture. I'd say it fits.

EDIT: @Ikael, oh no I get how big it's supposed to be. I'm just not sure what's wonderous about a giant hall. It's a building after all, not much more...

 

[PhilBowles]

True, but I normally play the GEM mod where the effect of the Kremlin has been replaced by a free 2nd ring for all cities (current and newly founded). That's why it didn't come to mind. In that light, I should've voted for the Red Fort.

And as for Borobodur, you do have some valid points. There are some interesting combos possible (for the human player at least), but I just feel they had some room here for more creativity.

I don't know, there are only two dedicated faith Wonders after Stonehenge (rather than Wonders that do other stuff but provide faith as part of their effect). Borodbodur makes sense as a faith Wonder, and presumably they wanted something to replace Djenne as a general Wonder. Okay, it does sort of look like the missionary version of the Hagia Sophia (does it provide a free pagoda the way the Mosque provides a free mosque?), but I'm happy enough with it.

But yes, they're not the best example. The Yasakuni Shrine however to this day is a hotspot of right wing memorial culture. I'd say it fits.

You're probably right, however others have pointed out that it may be offensive in key markets for the game (although they did get away with the Samurai Invasion of Korea, apparently also a sore point and the reason Creative Assembly has given for refuseing to make a Total War game in that setting).

 

[Camikaze]

Probably worth keeping in mind that Prora's lack of significance has to do with the fact that Autocracy well and truly lost the RL culture game. Had it become dominant, perhaps it would be seen as something of a wonder. Likewise, if Autocracy is a terrible ideology for a given game, then Prora isn't going to be important (no-one will build it if no-one goes into Autocracy, or stays in Autocracy for a sufficient time). But if it does become dominant, that's an alternative history; one in which Prora perhaps would have been wondrous.

Though still, surely there would've been something Autocracy related better than Prora...

 

[LastSword]

Prora is so meh that I will switch it with Brandenburg Gate and then replace it with Saint-Cyr Academy.

 

[InsanelyApple]

May as well have included that hotel north Korea is "building"

How about the Juche Tower in Pyongyang?

 

[Colmar]

Some pics for reference of scale:

Volkshalle VS Brandenbur gate
Volkshalle VS regular humans on a nazi parade
Volkshalle VS the world

Wow, it definitely would qualify as a wonder. I wouldn't be against its inclusion in BNW, because Civ is all about the 'what if' history, and the triumph of fascism and nazism has been a big 'what if?' since WWII.

Oh, and the third link sure attracts some interesting types to the comments.