Most overpowered leaders

[DrJambo]

I'm not convinced over this obsession with HC. For HC to be so favourable of course always presumes that your starting location is within easy marching distance of the next civ... otherwise, if it's not then you're solely relying on them for barb defence (which granted, is quite helpful). Plus, if you're spamming quechuas, then you won't be making best use of the Industrious trait for building those early Wonders.

Anyway, enough on HC.

1) War-mongering
I've actually my best success (i.e. highest score) with Kublai and would rate him far and above Genghis. Brennus is also quite nice here.

2) Teching
Any financial or philosophical civ. Darius is pretty good, as is Mansa.

3) Culture
Gandhi or Pericles.

4) WonderSpamming
Ramesses or Louis, although any civ lucky enough to start near stone or copper can compete here. Louis with his Creative and Industrious combo can be a Wonder building machine since it be easy to link up an early Stone or Marble.

5) Best early start
Given close proximity to another civ, then yes HC might be. Personally, I'd still favour a Creative civ. If warring then Kublai, if peaceful then maybe Pericles, Willem or Hatty.

6) Best mid-game.
Financial or Philosophical civs. Maybe Elizabeth, although it could be argued that these two traits don't work as well when together.

7) Best late-game
I like the Americans and Germans here. Particularly Lincoln. The Navy Seal is much underrated and several transports loaded with these guys can take pretty much any coastal AI city at any time on the first turn of attack. Very powerful.

8) Pangea Map
Probably a war-mongering civ and I'd probably go with Kublai as Creative is excellent when civs are packed in and fighting for those early sweet spots. Pericles is good for a peaceful venture.

9) Archipelago
Willem, Hannibal or Lincoln.

10) Continents.
Any of these - Willem, Pericles, Hannibal and Lincoln.

Best overall civ. Tough. I play Emperor and the easiest game I've had so far was with Hannibal and that was on a Pangea map. So for the time being I'd say him. Charismatic is great for warring and peaceful building, and that extra happiness is just so valuable at the start. I don't think there's a civ with a Creative/Charismatic combo and if there was, such a civ might be my favourite.

Regardless, any of these I'd consider top tier civs:

1. Hannibal
2. Pericles
3. Willem
4. Lincoln

People put a massive amount of emphasis on the importance of the early game and there's no denying that's true. However, against the AI one can conquer far quicker with late game units, and Lincoln really shines here. People can underestimate the power of a well orchestrated naval invasion and the damage it can do to an AI civ, particularly one that's maybe pursuing a culture win.

 

[Shadzy19]

1) Julius Caeser
2) Liz with a close second for Willem .
3) Ghandi
4) Ramsess
5) Pacal II , try to get pottery and BW asap , whip a cheap granery and just rex like a madman , your economy will recover fast since your financial.
6) Justinian , he never runs out of happy faces.
7) tough one , I think Bismarck.
8) back to 1
9) Willem no contest
10) Hannibal

Personal favorites :
Ghandi , Hannibal , Willem , Monty (if only he wouldnt have jags ) , Justinian , Bismarck , Frederick , Pacal , Suleiman II .

 

[DrJambo]

Ah yes, I forgot Suleiman. His traits have a cool synergy for Great People in general.

 

[The Rook]

I'm not convinced over this obsession with HC. For HC to be so favourable of course always presumes that your starting location is within easy marching distance of the next civ... otherwise, if it's not then you're solely relying on them for barb defence (which granted, is quite helpful). Plus, if you're spamming quechuas, then you won't be making best use of the Industrious trait for building those early Wonders.

I think your last line just about sums up why HC is so strong. You either spam Quechuas if the map is crowded, or spam wonders if it isn't. The fact that Quechuas are so cheap means that you don't need to prepare for barbs in advance, but can react to them when they arise. The number of hammers saved by using Quechuas for defence could yield a free wonder when you consider HC's 50% wonder bonus. Ok, you might miss a wonder or two if you are rushing someone, but you gain a couple of cities (including a capital) and a wealth of space instead. Perhaps the Quechua would be weakest on a watery map where there are few barbs and no rush options, but even then Financial comes good, and with Industrious HC would have a good shot at the GL and Colossus. It just seems that HC has so many options, if you create a scenario where one doesn't work well, his other strengths kick in instead. If the cIV HC were a boxer, I'm sure he'd have three arms.

Still, I'm glad that not everyone thinks the Incas overpowered, it makes me feel less guilty about the times I've played them.

On a different note, I can't really understand why so many people rate Pericles so highly for cultural victory? Philosophical needs no explanation, but the extra culture generated by his UB and the Creative trait is negligible. Of course, the UB also has extra artist slots, but Caste System is your friend in this situation.

 

[futurehermit]

It just seems that HC has so many options, if you create a scenario where one doesn't work well, his other strengths kick in instead

yep, this is why after a lot of thought i decided he was the strongest as well.

 

[madscientist]

@ Dr Jambo: Very nice summary there, I like it. I will not argue and Kublai versus Genghis, I can see the preference for creative and I will agree it's a matter of taste there. Regarding HC I have said many times on this forum I find his Quencha the ultimate in early defense to allow him to abuse the other two traits. This allows HC to do many things, early religion, early pottery, early wonder he can literally skip Archery/BW/AH for a decent amount of time. And of course he can completely clobber close AIs with the Quenchas.

@Rook. I am a believer that those extra culture really add up especially with the multipliers. You can certainly win culturally without ever running an artists (did that in HOLY SAL) nor do you need philosophical. But as you said the Odean is very powerful for culture (Works well for Big AL too) and running 4 artists very early (ODean comes with construction) while still running slavery is a big deal. Cultural also get cheap libraries/theaters so you can get them build ALOT faster which means in 1000 years they double culture, so even a few turns of quicker build can get alot more culture than you realize. Also remember pericles UB is built twice as fast.


As I have said before (and sort of proven with Shaka) any leader can easily win in a culture game using a very simple strategy. But some leaders are much better at it for different reasons

Phil: excellent at popped great artists
Spir: abusing the religion aspect and catherdrals due to cheap temples
Fin: for leveraging the culture slider with cottages later in the game
Ind: Wonders
Cre: free culture and cheap lib/theater (abd odean in Per case)

All 5 of those traits help alot in cultural wins and any combo can work very well there.

 

[The Rook]

@Rook. I am a believer that those extra culture really add up especially with the multipliers. You can certainly win culturally without ever running an artists (did that in HOLY SAL) nor do you need philosophical. But as you said the Odean is very powerful for culture (Works well for Big AL too) and running 4 artists very early (ODean comes with construction) while still running slavery is a big deal.

Interesting, your approach to accumulating culture is very different to mine. Normally I don't really care much about what culture trickles through before I have all the expensive cultural modifiers in place. I usually find that my 2nd and 3rd cities double their total accumulated culture within a few turns once I throw the economy into culture (post-Liberalism).

As I have said before (and sort of proven with Shaka) any leader can easily win in a culture game using a very simple strategy. But some leaders are much better at it for different reasons

Agreed. A good start with any leader (with access to a couple of religions) should wrap up a cultural win. HC is imho the best opener, and he has strong cultural traits too, so I blandly picked him as the culture guru.

 

[Iranon]

1. Huayna Capac
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10. Huayna Capac


Sadly, I would also hold HC to be the top choice on an Archipelago map. If you're stuck on an overpopulated island, you can bum rush the competition as soon as there are prizes worth keeping. Financial is even more awesome on water maps, and the usefulness of wonders in a trade-based economy coupled with low early production makes Industrious an excellent trait. Sure, Willem rocks in the long run... but CRE is hardly an exciting trait on archipelago maps and by the time the sexy dutch dikes make me drool the lack-of-production problem is a thing of the past anyway (thanks to powerful workshops if anything else fails).

Qin Shi Huang and Elizabeth might get a huge boost in the midgame, and the lategame uniques of civs like Germany and the USA are quite powerful... but I'd say that's usually insufficient to catch up with HC whose powerful economic traits make it easy to keep a lead.

***

Bonus material: Rank 2 and 3.

1. Frederick, Cyrus.
2. Darius, Elizabeth
3. Gandhi, Elizabeth
4. Ramesses, Qin Shi Huang
5. Hatshepsut, Darius
6. Qin Shi Huang, Elizabeth
7. Frederick, Roosevelt
8. Darius, Ramesses
9. Hannibal, Willem
10. Darius, Gandhi


1.) Philosophical is an excellent economic trait for a warmonger, and Organized makes your conquests a significantly lesser drain of resources and only becomes better... I consider Frederick an excellent warmonger even though he is a little behind in terms of unit quality. With super-cheap factories (that enable ANY city to be a decent production city) and Panzers, he's great at large-scale conquest in the late game.
Cyrus is the perfect opposite in a warmonger: An early, very powerful UU supported by 2 military traits that also apply to each and every unit. His main drawback is that I might forget I'm not playing Darius and accidentally flush my economy down the john. Oops.

2.) Not much to say about the best techers really. Elizabeth has strong economic traits for any economy while Darius can REX without wrecking his economy too badly, overtaking most others in the long run.

3.) This really depends on your strategy to obtain a cultural victory... does it include wonderwhoring, and will you cut down on science past liberalism? For a non-wonder approach, Gandhi and Elizabeth are very strong.
Louis and Qin Shi Huang can competently spam wonders for a cultural victory even though their secondary traits are fairly marginal, thanks to IND and useful buildings.

4.) Wonderspamming is hardly a complete strategy and depends on little but the industrious trait... Spiritual helps streamline your economy but the secondary trait and preferred uniques depend on the other half of your plan. Qin excels in medieval warfare and is no slouch in wonder-fueled culture victories so I'm picking him.

5.) Hatty has a killer unique unit and doesn't need to worry about border popping, making her the queen of rushes. I'm greatful she's such a sweet lady in the hands of the AI.
Darius is very balanced: He can rush, he can REX, and he'll tech reasonably well even if his empire grew a little too quickly.

6.) Cho-Ko-Nu are fearsome offensive weapons and, when protected from horsies, almost impossible to stop cost-effectively in large numbers. While they can effectively attack multiple defenders in a city, their true value lies in taking out opposing stacks making them a versatile offensive and defensive tool. Their awesomeness is such that upgrading them all might be a supremely bad idea. Qin has solid traits and can get to his UU quickly with an Oracle Slingshot... what's not to like?
Philosophical is excellent in the midgame, Financial is the other economic powerhouse. Whoever claims the traits have bad synergy... consider that many people switch from SE to CE anyway, and just how much Financial cottages + Academies from mass-produced Great Scientists rock in combination.

7.) For Frederick, see above. The other spot I'm not sure at all; Bismarck and any American or Russian leader also have the chance to become very very good towards the end of the game thanks to excellent Unique Buildings.
Personally I'm going with Roosevelt since he has solid traits all around, but if you argue that Cathy's early REXing will have paid off tenfold by now or that Lincoln deserves the spot because his +5 happiness allows him a LOT of leeway that's fine with me.

8.) Both have solid economic traits (geared towards radically different economies though) and fast, efficient UUs.

9.) Financial is excellent on water maps, Charismatic compensates for a relative scarcity of luxuries for much of the game, and the Cothon is certainly nice when trade plays a major role.
Willem comes into his own later - Dikes are extremely powerful and his UU has interesting applications. However, Creative is a fairly useless trait here, making it hard to say whether he's better or worse than Hannibal.

10.) Two very balanced and economically powerful leaders. Darius is an economic monster who happens to have a very good rush. Gandhi has a powerful trait combination for a Specialist Economy, and his ability to get from peace to war footing and back at the drop of a hat makes him extremely versatile.

Overall: Darius and Gandhi, for the flexibility mentioned above.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

1) War-Mongering

Justinian - Lord of war. The UU is good - an earlier curaisser, but the UB is fantastic for game long warring.

2) Teching

Darius - hands down. Cottage spam from sea to shining sea.

3) Culture

Louis. Would have to be an industrious leader for me - and Salon fits in well too.

4) WonderSpamming

Frederick - faster workers and extra health.

5) Best early start

Mayans. Financial + earlier workers + better health happiness and a UU that gives good defense with no resources.

6) Best mid-game.

Elizabeth. Both GP farm and cottages should be going strong and UU and UB kick in.

7) Best late-game

Roosevelt. Love those seals and UB is strong late game.

8) Pangea Map

Darius - take land early and fill it with cottages.

9) Acheopolego

Ragnar - king of sea maps.

10) Continents.

Darius

 

[madscientist]

Invis,

Dont' you mean Bismark (Ind/Exp) and not Fred (ORG/Phil) for wonderspamming?

 

[Emperor Giulio]

i agree, the mighty khan isnt that might

I agree its pretty dissappointing, he is regarded as one of the greatest genreals in history.

 

[InFlux5]

Ramesses and Darius don't need to have their UU, UB, and both traits all be military related. They can destroy you early with their UU's alone. After that they can use their other abilities to build a technological or cultural powerhouse, whereas Genghis has nothing to use to sustain his economy. No cheap buildings, no upkeep savings, no financial bonuses, nothing.

Well-said. Each of Genghis' traits is cobbled together to create a leader that's decidedly good at very early expansion/rushing. But that's it; that's all he's good at. As you point out, a powerful early UU accomplishes the exact same thing. (Also, having your traits tied to Horsebacking Riding is awful.)

One extra point of strength on an early UU (e.g. a 5-strength War Chariot instead of a regular Chariot, strength 4) is extremely powerful, representing a 25% increase in base strength.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

1) War-mongering(includin' techin' to actually get the job done)

mansa
gilgamesh
hatty
justinian
darius/hc/oranje
more or less in that order

beside warmongering, nothin' really matters

ah, and leavin' aside romans, since they're just pointless...

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

A financial civ + portugal is ridiculously overpowered. After a bit more playing, i find the Feitoria to be a much better sea building than the dike. At first, sure the dike is great. While archipelago maps usually have bad production, you can fix this by just focusing the majority of the land on production while your oceans provide your commerce. 4 commerce coasts and 3 commerce oceans are just nuts. And then your land can be workshopped, great with SP, which is pretty much mandatory on archipelago. Also his UU allows you to delay astronomy, so you can have the colossus, and the feitoria going for a while, though you probably don't want to delay this too long since communism is so necessary.

 

[King of Town]

I would think the commerce gained from overseas trade routes would beat the colossus bonus. I'e never tried it though.

 

[troytheface]

Saladin-those camel archers and the green color (allows for ease on the eyes and camaflauge) could be considered as over-powered.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

There is one reasonably common scenario that makes HC look bad: Being in a crowded area with lots of protective/super archer leaders (mansa, hammurabi). What does he do then? Quechuas can roll normal archers, but not skirmishers, bowmen or protective archers. He lacks land to expand to, so he runs into the whole "traits compete with each other" problem; he just won't have enough cities to devote one to wonders and the rest to cottages. Here, you'd much rather have someone who can either land grab so fast that being in a crowded map doesn't stop them (a creative or imperialistic leader, catherine for best results) or someone who's really good at a conventional rush to bust out (quechuas can't handle protective archers, but aggressive or charismatic axes can, so can vultures or praets or war chariots or immortals.) This happens often enough without trying to fudge the settings to purposefully gimp HC that you must consider it.

 

[oyzar]

quchas can take out skirms just fine.. you just need more of them.

 

[Incan Emperor]

I would think the commerce gained from overseas trade routes would beat the colossus bonus. I'e never tried it though.

You still get overseas trade routes from your neighbor one water tile away from your island, that is in an Archipielago map.