Most useless units?

[walletta]

I must say, I do like it in my games, always played on Pangea maps, to see the AI building impressive, gigantic navies. The Carthaginians seem particularly fond of steaming about pointlessly controlling the high seas. So, in context, whole navies can be useless units

 

[Zwischenzug]

Last week, I would have said Longbowmen, hands down. In >10 years of Civ III, I can honestly say that I never consciously built significant numbers of them (might have gotten a good number upgraded from Archer here and there, but that was more convenience than plan). They cost the same as Medieval Infantry and are usually not available much sooner. So they only have a slot when you have no iron. And early Medieval Age and still no iron, well... But over the weekend I had a nice game with the Portuguese where I was swimming in gold and actually managed to continue an offensive from a city that was cut off from my supply lines by mass-buying Longbowmen in that city. So there they have actually been pretty useful.

Chariots are also high on my list, but they can occasionally be useful for scouting, so they have at least some use.

Another unit I seldom get much use out of are AEGIS Cruisers. They have amazing stats and features, but they just come soooooo late

I don't quite get the hate for Ironclads, though. I agree, there are many more useful units, but the tech is extremely cheap, the AI often doesn't bother to research it, the tech can be sold for good money nonetheless (and when do you need more money than in the early Industrial Age?), Ironclads dominate Frigates and can make an otherwise very tedious landing op (or prevention of equally tedious AI landing ops, pathetic as those usually are) very straightforward, and, best of all, they upgrade to Destroyers. I don't always researach them, probably in less than a third of my games, actually, but especially against one of the navy afficionado Civs like Byzantines or Carthage, they can be quite useful.

 

[walletta]

Blimey Zwischenzug (not a chess player by any chance …?) the AI always researches ironclads in my games and considers it a valuable tech for which it demands an excessive price in return. Still, you make a decent case for the heap of junk, I admit.

Here's one - the Explorer. Now, I know there will be those who can make a great case for this guy but all I use it for is exploring across the border to find resources (usually coal) that I lack so I can plan my next invasion commercial venture. What else are they good for?

I also find flak pretty useless and don't build them much but the test should really be how well things fare in a protracted war between approximate equals. I don't have a lot of experience of balanced games in which both sides have bombers.

Also, about Jet fighters? Aren't they pretty useless?

 

[Zwischenzug]

(not a chess player by any chance …?)

Not a good one, but yeah

the AI always researches ironclads in my games and considers it a valuable tech for which it demands an excessive price in return.

True, I amend my statement: the AI often doesn't bother to research it with a high priority. They tend to go down the Nationalism road first.

Here's one - the Explorer. Now, I know there will be those who can make a great case for this guy but all I use it for is exploring across the border to find resources (usually coal) that I lack so I can plan my next invasion commercial venture. What else are they good for?

I adore the Explorer This unit has won me wars! Cutting off an AI from Saltpeter or Horses in a protracted Cavalry duel is priceless

I also find flak pretty useless and don't build them much but the test should really be how well things fare in a protracted war between approximate equals. I don't have a lot of experience of balanced games in which both sides have bombers.

I like to have a good pile on standby, in case the AI really irritates me by piling all their Bombers on one of my cities. In a stack, they have a good hit ratio.

Also, about Jet fighters? Aren't they pretty useless?

They are the best unit for revealing targets for Bombers (cities are always a sure hit, of course, but catching units in transit gives you more HP-destruction per raid, on average). Otherwise, pretty useless, unless you find yourself operating under really aggravated air raid conditions: I send them in before the Bombers to soak up the AI's own Fighters and Jet Fighters (Bombers are as expensive as Jet Fighters, but Jet Fighters have a higher chance of survival in air combat, so you come out a few shields ahead).


I have another unit to add to the list, by the way: Cannon.

Seems a strange pick, but my reasoning is this: it is only marginally more effective than the Trebuchet and, while the Trebuchet, with its range of 1, operates in an environment of 1- and 2-movement offensive units, the Cannon, also with a range of 1, operates in an environment dominated by the 3-movement Cavalry. So it is pretty damned useless in offensive action. Just spamming Cavalry will usually give you the better result in a shorter timeframe. In defense, it might have its place here and there, especially at choke points, but considering that a defense consisting mainly of early interception with Cavalry is the best strategy at that time, that is one pretty narrow niche. I only build them in larger numbers for the mass-upgrade to artillery, but to be honest, I'd be just as happy to do this with Trebuchets.

 

[Lanzelot]

As the AI is usually pretty bad at air warfare, things like Flak, AEGIS and Jets are not that useful in a single-player game.

But just try a multi-player game against experienced human players that gets into the late industrial age... The Bomber is a deadly weapon in the hands of a human player, and if you don't protect your fleet with AEGIS or Jets on Carriers, it will be sent down to the bottom of the ocean faster than you can blink your eye... And if you don't protect your cities/resources with Flak and Jets (and SAM batteries), they will be in ruins quickly...

 

[walletta]

Not a good one, but yeah

I thunk so.

snip

I adore the Explorer This unit has won me wars! Cutting off an AI from Saltpeter or Horses in a protracted Cavalry duel is priceless

How does it do that? Do you just sit it on top of their resource and then destroy the improvement when war breaks out?

I like to have a good pile on standby, in case the AI really irritates me by piling all their Bombers on one of my cities. In a stack, they have a good hit ratio.

I admit to having down this also, but I cannot remember not winning a game that got to this stage so it's hard to know whether they could ever make the difference.

They are the best unit for revealing targets for Bombers (cities are always a sure hit, of course, but catching units in transit gives you more HP-destruction per raid, on average). Otherwise, pretty useless, unless you find yourself operating under really aggravated air raid conditions: I send them in before the Bombers to soak up the AI's own Fighters and Jet Fighters (Bombers are as expensive as Jet Fighters, but Jet Fighters have a higher chance of survival in air combat, so you come out a few shields ahead).

This is genius and I will have to try it. I always use fighters for 'air superiority' but they never seem to achieve much. Your idea looks great.

I have another unit to add to the list, by the way: Cannon.

Seems a strange pick, but my reasoning is this: it is only marginally more effective than the Trebuchet and, while the Trebuchet, with its range of 1, operates in an environment of 1- and 2-movement offensive units, the Cannon, also with a range of 1, operates in an environment dominated by the 3-movement Cavalry. So it is pretty damned useless in offensive action. Just spamming Cavalry will usually give you the better result in a shorter timeframe. In defense, it might have its place here and there, especially at choke points, but considering that a defense consisting mainly of early interception with Cavalry is the best strategy at that time, that is one pretty narrow niche.

Cannon is (are?) one of my favourite units! Come on! I am happiest in the railway age when I can swing the whole lot across the map against some hapless target but I also like constructing intricate defence works made out of cities, forests and fortifications, the first and last being studded with cannon to deter or thin out the enemy and I have fought some wonderful wars lasting literally hundred of years with these little fellows. True, artillery are better and radar artillery truly awesome (but, as someone said above, they show up too late) but cannon are (is?) great.

 

[Lanzelot]

I adore the Explorer This unit has won me wars! Cutting off an AI from Saltpeter or Horses in a protracted Cavalry duel is priceless

And not only that: send in 3-4 explorers on the first turn of war and cut their luxury resources, and their empire will be rioting instead of producing defenders. Again very effective in human-human duels...

 

[Zwischenzug]

How does it do that? Do you just sit it on top of their resource and then destroy the improvement when war breaks out?

Either that, or move in even after war broke out. Six movement can get you quite far. If you move it right and use the map right, you can even penetrate six more tiles on the next turn (somehow the AI doesn't prioritise catching Explorers very highly, and you can use mountain ranges the AI hasn't build roads on yet to avoid their units, etc.).

Furthermore: what Lanzelot said.

Cannon is (are?) one of my favourite units! Come on!

Nothing to say against a personal preference, I guess I have done this defensive networking you speak of myself from time to time, and I agree that it can be pretty cool, but usually I find this way to tedious ^^

 

[walletta]

And not only that: send in 3-4 explorers on the first turn of war and cut their luxury resources, and their empire will be rioting instead of producing defenders. Again very effective in human-human duels...

Geez, you guys are sneaky. I have been fighting far too fair all this time. No wonder I'm still stuck at emperor

 

[Mizar]

Horsemen - Can hardly even fight an Archer, worthless against spearmen.

Regular tanks - Sometimes they lose against Guerilla and even middle age units.

are we playing the same game ?

 

[justanick]

I don't quite get the hate for Ironclads, though. I agree, there are many more useful units, but the tech is extremely cheap

Those cheap techs are excellent for farming of SGL. The ironclad is as good at bombing as the destroyer it can be upgraded to. If you need fire support the ironclad is a good choice, especially when playing the Vikings.

At Deity and below the ironclad might be wasted, but i image that on Sid and higher the ironclad becomes more useful because it takes much longer till it becomes obsolete.

 

[ZergMazter]

I think the most useless unit in unmodded civ3 is the stealth fighter. I dont know what role it fits. To me its just a very expensive recon unit with pathetic bombard power.

I thought at first it was supposed to be used to kill enemy fighters, but its stealth makes it rather hard. There is really not role for this unit. It just looks cool.

 

[justanick]

From all air units the stealth fighter will suffer the lowest losses when attacking cities with jet fighter stationed there. The stealth fighters can bombard those cities till the jet fighters have used up their attacks, then bombers or stealth bombers might kill the remaining enemy air force.

That seems the be the role they are designed for. When you have Destroyers or AEGIS, then you can destroy the enemy airforce via sea bombardment. This is can often be the better choice.

 

[Lord AJ]

According to me the worst units would be the ones used for naval warfare. IMO, ships must be built only if u need to transport units or for exploration. Even 2 or 3 ships to protect a transport might be an overkill. I don't see any other use for these vessels. They can't take towns and can only bombard which isn't good considering their cost and the fact that the bombardment is limited to a few tiles from the coast. Apart from ships, I also find planes to not be of much use (this however is my personal opinion as I usually end games well before I get to see planes flying around ) .I think that in huge maps planes might prove to be the better ways of bombardment so nailing it down I'll say all ships (galleys and curraghs excepted) are the worst units.

 

[Lanzelot]

Apart from ships, I also find planes to not be of much use (this however is my personal opinion as I usually end games well before I get to see planes flying around )

Well, according to that logic, Tanks, Modern Armor or even ICBMs would qualify as "worst units"... Which is kind of true: if you finish the game with a horsemen-rush in the Ancient Age, the ICBM is quite "useless"... But if you get into the Modern Age, it is quite a formidable unit... So I think this argument should not be used. Each unit should be seen in its "natural environment" and judged by how well it performs in the age in which it is up-to-date.

 

[Kirejara]

IMO, ships must be built only if u need to transport units or for exploration. Even 2 or 3 ships to protect a transport might be an overkill. I don't see any other use for these vessels.

This is exactly what the KI thinks about ships, and because of that they use them poorly.

In one of my games on an archipelago I was under attack by the Celts, who had an superior army (I had no rubber). So I used my fleet to intercept their troops transports and to disrupt their supply lines. Since the KI moves their escorts only as some sort of shield and without attacking any enemies while on convoy duty, my fleet was able to shell them without even taking hits themself.

In the end Boadicca was bankrupt and she has lost beside of her complete navy a huge part of her army (with only one short land engemanent at the start of the war). And I was in the end able to launch my starship.

 

[ZergMazter]

So Kirejara what would happen if we gave transport ships a decent attack/defense, and removed the 'needs escort' flag?

Will the AI use ships better, or will they not build them at all since there is no need for escorts? I think this would reveal if they treat them only as escorts, or escorting a unit is just a high priority strategy that just gets in the way of the AI using them as we humans do.

Actually im making a post about this now on the customization forum.

@Justanick

But you know that 5% chance to be intercepted... might as well just make a stealth bomber run, since the stealth fighter's bombard sux and will likely miss? Or am I missing some forbidden math here?

 

[daft]

The worst unit of them all in the game's got to be the Incan Unique Unit - scout unit. I mean, they can already built regular scout, due to being expansionist.

 

[justanick]

@Justanick

But you know that 5% chance to be intercepted... might as well just make a stealth bomber run, since the stealth fighter's bombard sux and will likely miss? Or am I missing some forbidden math here?

As i understand stealth gives just one advantage and this is against SAM. AA from ground units, naval units and attacks from (jet) fighters are not affected by it.

The stealth fighter has 6 bombardment against defence 4 of the jet fighter. At frequency 2 this means that a damage of 1.2 HP is done per bombing run on avarage. The stealth bomber has bombardement 18 and frequency 3, so it does 2.45 HP damage on average. So for bombardement they are even more cost effecient. The point for using stealth fighters is to use them as damage soaks. They suffer lower losses and costs 50% less.

The worst unit of them all in the game's got to be the Incan Unique Unit - scout unit.

They can be used to finish off the last unit of stack on hills and mountains. The UU can return to safe territory after this attack. Other units will have no movement points left, so they have to either defend that tile when likely weakened by their attack or the already redlined unit of the enemy has to be left alive. I used the Inca UU for that purpose once and it did some help.

 

[walletta]

As i understand stealth gives just one advantage and this is against SAM. AA from ground units, naval units and attacks from (jet) fighters are not affected by it.

The stealth fighter has 6 bombardment against defence 4 of the jet fighter. At frequency 2 this means that a damage of 1.2 HP is done per bombing run on avarage. The stealth bomber has bombardement 18 and frequency 3, so it does 2.45 HP damage on average. So for bombardement they are even more cost effecient. The point for using stealth fighters is to use them as damage soaks. They suffer lower losses and costs 50% less.




They can be used to finish off the last unit of stack on hills and mountains. The UU can return to safe territory after this attack. Other units will have no movement points left, so they have to either defend that tile when likely weakened by their attack or the already redlined unit of the enemy has to be left alive. I used the Inca UU for that purpose once and it did some help.

That just makes it an inferior version of other weak units with two movement points, like Jaguar Warriors or Impi. Does is trigger a GA if used in this way?