Mounted Units
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
Los Tirano
God-King
Can the conquistador be changed back to not be such a pansy unit? Granted they were murderous skum filled with avarice, but they were good at what they did.
Also this idea. Make them as per a normal knight. But add the exceptional or hero trait, BUT make them very very expensive. So a few can seriously endanged cities as happened, but so only a few can really be built.
Also this idea. Make them as per a normal knight. But add the exceptional or hero trait, BUT make them very very expensive. So a few can seriously endanged cities as happened, but so only a few can really be built.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Los Tirano said:
Los Tirano,
That's quite a good idea to make conquistadors a very expensive unit but with awesome powers. I like this idea.
When you look at spanish conquest of America, it's incredible to see so few guys conquering so huge empire....
I agree. What do you suggest ? Give us a description (cost, free promo, combat value, tech needed,...) of what could be a "good" conquistador for you, please ....
The Frog.
Spartan117
Immortal
Hian the Frog said:
yea but their allies were many other american tribes. they had better technology, canons and muskets, not to mention horses. I wonder though how much more would a conquistador do that another elite groups of soldiers from europe couldnt. and how much more superior were those conquistadors if facing another europe power.
so i dont think they were all super powerful.
Los Tirano
God-King
Its funny when people mention the horses the conquistadors had. Because they only had a few. And by a few i do mean a few only.
As for their allies they had one main and very strong ally that they used to bring down the Aztecs. This ally provided the centre and bulk of troops in further battles. But they only gained these allies by defeating them. The conquistadors dug into a hill and could not be removed, waves upon waves failed.
The people who made up the conquistadors were hard mercenaries seeking wealth and a chance to move up in status. Given their accomplishments, their leader, and that they were hard mercenaries with most having battle experience before the americas, we can assume they would have done well against european opponents.
Keep the tech needed the same, give them knight stats, so raise the bonus vs melee from what it is now (how many aztec footsoldiers did they kill?)
Bonuses
-Allow them defensive bonuses, the conquistadors at times fought defensively and were adept at it.
-Give them the 'hero' promotion or the 'extraordinary promotion
OR give them the fanatic promotion. The fanatic seems more appropriate to me. They werent religious fanatics but their lust for gold was legendary. Gives them a slightly better movement (to get through that damn jungle) and doesnt make them unbelievably strong, as the hero promotion risks. Also gives a slight bonus to city attack, which makes sense for the conquerors of an empire. If they could be given a special 'gold fanatic promotion' that would be hillarious.
OR both exceptional and fanatic, in light of the penalties below.
Penalties, got to have them
-Can only build three (or 3-5). If these are hard mercs, talented but restless individuals, and meant to signify exceptional groups of adventurers, then you cant very well spawn fifty of them, no matter what your production.
-Double cost knight. 180 production each. Its a serious hit so use them wisely. This means no more entire conquistador armies, which are lethal but a bit off. Means the great tercios will be used as the real army with the conquistadors embarking on separate conquests, or being elite troops. Realism realism realism. huzzah!
Well thats my ideas gentlemen, good night.
As for their allies they had one main and very strong ally that they used to bring down the Aztecs. This ally provided the centre and bulk of troops in further battles. But they only gained these allies by defeating them. The conquistadors dug into a hill and could not be removed, waves upon waves failed.
The people who made up the conquistadors were hard mercenaries seeking wealth and a chance to move up in status. Given their accomplishments, their leader, and that they were hard mercenaries with most having battle experience before the americas, we can assume they would have done well against european opponents.
Keep the tech needed the same, give them knight stats, so raise the bonus vs melee from what it is now (how many aztec footsoldiers did they kill?)
Bonuses
-Allow them defensive bonuses, the conquistadors at times fought defensively and were adept at it.
-Give them the 'hero' promotion or the 'extraordinary promotion
OR give them the fanatic promotion. The fanatic seems more appropriate to me. They werent religious fanatics but their lust for gold was legendary. Gives them a slightly better movement (to get through that damn jungle) and doesnt make them unbelievably strong, as the hero promotion risks. Also gives a slight bonus to city attack, which makes sense for the conquerors of an empire. If they could be given a special 'gold fanatic promotion' that would be hillarious.
OR both exceptional and fanatic, in light of the penalties below.
Penalties, got to have them
-Can only build three (or 3-5). If these are hard mercs, talented but restless individuals, and meant to signify exceptional groups of adventurers, then you cant very well spawn fifty of them, no matter what your production.
-Double cost knight. 180 production each. Its a serious hit so use them wisely. This means no more entire conquistador armies, which are lethal but a bit off. Means the great tercios will be used as the real army with the conquistadors embarking on separate conquests, or being elite troops. Realism realism realism. huzzah!
Well thats my ideas gentlemen, good night.
Spartan117
Immortal
actually i was taught the reason why some of these tribes helped the spanish was because they hated aztecs alot since spanish wre going to fight them they would help against the aztec. i did not know that the reason these tribes helped the spanish was because the spanish defeaated them in battle?
the classic cliche,"enemy of my enemy is my friend."
i mean look the aztec use obsidian swords(very sharp but lose "sharpness" really quick) and archers. Spanish had importantly CANONS, muskets, superior military strategies and although they had a few horses(there were only a few spanish soliders) Having horses in that age if battle was very important even if a few.
they stood their ground with musket fire and canons. when i think of conquistadors i think a combination of musketmen(who have bonus against melee), canons, and a guy on horse with a gun(not exactly a knight)
other global powers would have had similar successes against the tribes.
but i think is important is how much more dominant would they have been against other european and global powers. not even close to that level of dominanace. so i thnk having a hero promotion on them is extreme even if making only 3 or 5 of them. If you can make 3 or 5 ofthem, maybe this hould go for other UU's as well. like janisaries or something,
the classic cliche,"enemy of my enemy is my friend."
i mean look the aztec use obsidian swords(very sharp but lose "sharpness" really quick) and archers. Spanish had importantly CANONS, muskets, superior military strategies and although they had a few horses(there were only a few spanish soliders) Having horses in that age if battle was very important even if a few.
they stood their ground with musket fire and canons. when i think of conquistadors i think a combination of musketmen(who have bonus against melee), canons, and a guy on horse with a gun(not exactly a knight)
other global powers would have had similar successes against the tribes.
but i think is important is how much more dominant would they have been against other european and global powers. not even close to that level of dominanace. so i thnk having a hero promotion on them is extreme even if making only 3 or 5 of them. If you can make 3 or 5 ofthem, maybe this hould go for other UU's as well. like janisaries or something,
Spartan117
Immortal
are siphai going to the ottomans in warlords version? I am sort of sure those were the ottomans soldiers. after janissaries.
after janissaries.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Spartan117 said:are siphai going to the ottomans in warlords version? I am sort of sure those were the ottomans soldiers.
Hi man,
Janissaires were the best Ottoman soldiers. In fact, they were young christian enslaved by the Ottoman and trained from their youth to be soldier. Of course, they had to convert. At first, they were an awesome force. Many battles were won by these elite troops (13th to end of 15th century). At the beginning of the 16th century, they became a political force. They spent more time struggling inside the Palace (named Topkapi) than on the battlefield. They began to marry (that was forbidden before), they had children (also forbidden), they made money (again forbidden),..... It was the beginning of the decay, no more no less. The real decay was their love for tradition and power. They refused military changes. As weaponry changed, they didn't. They began to outclassed. In the middle of the 17th century, they were no more a real force, an elite one, but just good troops.
Sipahi. These guys were real horsemen. Ottoman empire was divided in provinces, ruled by a Bey (if i'm right, not sure
). In times of war, Beys had to raise troops and sent them to the front line army. Most of these troops were in fact "Levies on horse": the Sipahi. So, sipahis are light cavalry, mainly use to surround ennemies, to pillaging, to attack logistic trains,... They were also dismounted in case of siege and used as "flesh" to attack cities. I let you imagine that at his height of power, Ottoman Empire can raise 100,000 to 200,000 of this guys !!! Sipahis were numerous, not easy to control, bad tactician and even more poor strategist, deeply violent,....but very usefull for the Empire. After a military reform in the 19th century, Sipahis became a real military unit, with its tradition, barracks,.... Sipahis still exist. In France, we have a some regiments of Sipahis. They came from the Egyptian Mamluk army (under the rule of the Ottoman Empire) defeated by Napoleon in 1798 in Egypt which chose to follow the French Army instead of beeing punished by the Calif. They were so good mounted units that they were included in Napoleon's Guards. From that time to now, our Spahis ( a " i " was lost in French
) made all of our wars (from the Napoleonic to Desert Storm). Today (in 2006), only one Regiment is still active. But what a Regiment ! It's one of our few Elite. They are trained as para-cavalry with special Tanks, cargo planes,....The Frog.
PS: i know that "more poor" is grammaticaly wrong. How do you say ? poorrer, poorest ? F---- language
, why don't everybody speak and write French. It would be easier. 
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
@ Los Tirano:
Have you seen the Warlords conquistadors ? It nearly looks like what you want. A knight with +50% against melee ..... Awesome if well used !
Your idea is quite good. A knight with a bonus against melee, twice cost, a def promo and/or movement bonus and a limited number (why not one per city ?)
What kind of def promo do you suggest ? something like the same promo as the vanilla explorator would be nice IMO.
About movement bonus, i don't agree. Mounted units are fast enough and the only mounted unit really autorized to received such a bonus is the mongol keshik.
An other idea is to give them the ability to bombard walls. This bonus should be low (it's not a siege unit !) but don't forget that only a few bombards/canons were needed to destroy the Aztec and Incan Empires. Any comments about that idea ?
The Frog
Have you seen the Warlords conquistadors ? It nearly looks like what you want. A knight with +50% against melee ..... Awesome if well used !
Your idea is quite good. A knight with a bonus against melee, twice cost, a def promo and/or movement bonus and a limited number (why not one per city ?)
What kind of def promo do you suggest ? something like the same promo as the vanilla explorator would be nice IMO.
About movement bonus, i don't agree. Mounted units are fast enough and the only mounted unit really autorized to received such a bonus is the mongol keshik.
An other idea is to give them the ability to bombard walls. This bonus should be low (it's not a siege unit !) but don't forget that only a few bombards/canons were needed to destroy the Aztec and Incan Empires. Any comments about that idea ?
The Frog
Los Tirano
God-King
Well the movement bonus is only added because it is a part of the fanatic trait. The ability to bombard is original. I wasnt suggesting a defensive promotion, just the ability to defend without penalties. If they are fanatic and exceptional or heroic they dont need a defensive bonus. You are right, one unit per city sounds very appropriate. If the spanish empire of the player is huge, they deserve more of these guys.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Los Tirano said:
Yeap, no def bonus but only the ability to defend themselves as every melee units seems a good idea.
So, a good conquistador could be:
- a knight with +50% against melee (as in Warlords)
- twice cost (so around 180 shields)
- able to defend without penalties
- limited to one per city
- fanatical free promo
- able to bombard lightly
What more ?
Comments are welcome. I hope we should ask Houman to make changes ASAP.
The Frog.
Los Tirano
God-King
Sounds good. Ive already asked for something on the main forum today so i dont think it would be right for me to ask for this. Would you kindly ask him?
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Los Tirano said:
Ok, no problems. I will send him a PM to ask him to have a look there.
The Frog.
WarKirby
Arty person
I have a simple request.
Can Japan's samurai knight be renamed Heavy Cavalry.
They are not knights.
Thank You
WarKirby
Can Japan's samurai knight be renamed Heavy Cavalry.
They are not knights.
Thank You
WarKirby
Los Tirano
God-King
Or better yet. Samurai horsemen, samurai cavalry.
WarKirby
Arty person
Well, they were called heavy cavalry in Shogun:Total War (why don't creative assembly make a sequel!) and I kinda got used to that.
Samurai Cavalry seems good though.
WarKirby
Samurai Cavalry seems good though.
WarKirby
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
- Ottoman will get a Sipahi with Green/Silver Moon on it. (Don;t forget the word Sepahi is actually a Persian one, and the Ottoman coped that unit. The Ottomans had a total respect for the Persian Cavalry at that time (Safavid Dynasty). Have a look at the Chaldaran battle where only 40.000 Persian Cavalry almost defeated a 10 times bigger Ottoman army. The only reason the Ottoman won was shooting with Canons inside own ranks, as the Persians were already inside the ottoman infantry ranks.
- Samurai knights will be changed to Samurai Cavalry
- Spanish Conquistators will be an exceptional army:
Cost increased by 33% (47% more than normal Knight)
Withdrawl from -5% updated to 15%
City Attack from 0 to 15%
Free Promotion: Fanatic and March (heal on move)
And they get as only Knightunit Defense bonus on a tile
(They might have less vs Melee and less protection vs Archers and less Colletral damage due less armor, but they have more combat bonus vs Archers and defense capability and the promotions which makes them the most powerful knight in the game)
To compensate that: 1 extra gold per Unit as maintenance. Like in reality the Conq. and their wars result in inflation and goes heavily on the economy. If you build too many of them you get ruined.
- Samurai knights will be changed to Samurai Cavalry
- Spanish Conquistators will be an exceptional army:
Cost increased by 33% (47% more than normal Knight)
Withdrawl from -5% updated to 15%
City Attack from 0 to 15%
Free Promotion: Fanatic and March (heal on move)
And they get as only Knightunit Defense bonus on a tile
(They might have less vs Melee and less protection vs Archers and less Colletral damage due less armor, but they have more combat bonus vs Archers and defense capability and the promotions which makes them the most powerful knight in the game)
To compensate that: 1 extra gold per Unit as maintenance. Like in reality the Conq. and their wars result in inflation and goes heavily on the economy. If you build too many of them you get ruined.
Los Tirano
God-King
Hooray! Thanks Houman.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Los Tirano said:
Yes, Great idea to also increase their maintenance.
The Frog.
