MSAV Discussion Thread to Russian War

[Crimso]

Ok... we were talking about helping the Americans with the bear we've unleashed on them... now we're talking about redrawing the map?

I was for defending America when it was proposed, now what I see is a lot of conquering. I don't care if the cities are gifted, I'm worried about war weariness. If there is some proof that the only way we can win a diplo victory is buy bribing people with cities, lay it on me. And if that was true, shouldn't we be gifting them to the abstainers? France, Aztecs and the Americans are basically in the bag.

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here. Us 'peaceniks' need better justification for invasion. The reason the WotP didn't agree with invasion last time was because no reasons were offered; the 'discussion' was completley one-sided. We saw maps, we saw troop stuff, but we didn't see why it was necessary.

A diplo victory is what we've (unofficially) decided on, right? Therefore, if you can convince me that these 'molding the world' plans will help us get more votes, by a margin significantly greater than just gifting techs, luxs, RoPs, etc. I will support this. But I don't see it yet. I see plans that will lead to massive war weariness and troop lost. I see strategies to give cities to nations that are already quite happy with us. I see a distraction from the end we are trying to achieve. A wasteful and quite possibly self-destructive distraction.

 

[Provolution]

Indian-Russia

My proposal would be, to let China get a continuous border and let them travel, Nirth-South, to let them have Jairpur, Chittagong and Karachi. We could take Sverdlovsk, Lahore, Punjab, Huntington, Delhi and Bangalore.

Core Russia

Kiev should go to China.
St Petersburg, Minsk and Tblisi should go to America
Smolensk should go to Japanatica (naval base)
Moscow and Sevastapol could go to the French or Babylon.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Ok. I agree that I'm getting a bit ahead of ourselves in this. Just an idea I was throwing out from a comment that Provo made.

Why do we need to eliminate the Russians?

Because, if we take a significant portion of their territory, or if a sig. portion of their territory is taken and we're a part of it, then they woun't vote for us. That is the case in Rome and Like the case in Allegheny. In fact, I'm not sure at all that the Zulu would vote for us at this point.

A lack of a vote is better than a vote "Against". China perhaps didn't think about it when Germany was conquered, but now they're probably glad they did.

As for "redrawing the map", I would rather give Chittagong to Azteca (along with Jaipur) rather than China. (I still say we should gift the Aztecs Jaipur if they commit troops to the War, as a just reward for an ally. (To the winner...)) Giving China a North-South corridor may enhance their power in the short term. And since they're our Diplo-foe, at least at the moment, I don't want to give them too much... I can see giving China Karachi, since it does stick out like a sore thumb. I can also see how forfeiting the North Ocean Coast would give us a better defendable border. (Especailly with 2 Mountain Forts near Bangalore.)

And again, this is if we conquer the respective cities. We have no control of the conquests of other nations. If France strips through Lahore-Delhi-Karachi, I say let them have it and give Moscow-Sevastapool to another Nation. But again, that's in the future.

 

[Provolution]

Question is, how many terms will the people go on with this game, do they want to win, do they want to do what it takes to win and do they consider war activities damaging in securing a win.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Provo, we are within 48 Hours from Turnchat. Why is there no poll yet?

 

[Provolution]

It is posted, I had issues with the network, but at least the debate had run its due course. However, I do not expect much change, unfortunately, I think the passivists are in majority, unless something radical happen to the show up in the poll.

 

[blackheart]

However, I do not expect much change, unfortunately, I think the passivists are in majority, unless something radical happen to the show up in the poll.

Curse those passivists and their inactivity!

 

[Crimso]

However, I do not expect much change, unfortunately, I think the passivists are in majority, unless something radical happen to the show up in the poll.

Here is something radical: convince me that this will help our nation. I laid this request out pure and simple, and I got one convoluted sentence.

 

[MOTH]

Here is something radical: convince me that this will help our nation. I laid this request out pure and simple, and I got one convoluted sentence.

There have been many arguments put forward on why this will help. I'll lay out the main points:

1. It is generally agreed that we should go for a diplomatic victory.

2. China is our likely competition.

3. Rome, Iroqouis, and Russia will likely not vote for us.

4. France, America, and Aztecs (and us) could vote for us.

5. Babylon and Zulu are key votes and it is unknown how they would vote.

So, with 10 countries there is a decent chance we could lose to China and a small chance we could win. If we remove any of the 3 votes we won't get then we have a much greater chance of winning and a greatly reduced chance of losing. If we remove all 3 of Rome, Iroq's, and Russia then we ave a decent chance of winning 4 out of the remain 7 votes.

Please let us know which parts are not convincing and we can try and persuade you some more.

Note: I personally would like to see a victory condition other that Diplo as I always get diplo in my games.

 

[DaveShack]

Note: I personally would like to see a victory condition other that Diplo as I always get diplo in my games.

Well, let's look at the other choices

Culture: have we been building every culture improvement? Do we have a 2x lead on the nearest competition? I have not looked at a save in ages but would expect both answers to be no. Once the calendar reaches a certain point, if you're not on track to a culture win, no amount of additional effort can win this way.

Domination / Conquest: An intercontinental conquest would mostly be a matter of logistics. Fun for MSAV groupies, but is it fun for most citizens?

Space Race: If someone is nail-biting close this could provide demogame drama, especialy if we decide not to resort to military means to win it, and take a risk of losing. If nobody is close then this could generate internal competition to decide where to build the spaceship parts, but little else since it's a set formula to win.

and for completeness sake:

Diplo: As already discussed in more detail, we would need to absorb those who would vote against us, or give them a reason not to vote for our opponent, and have a majority of votes for us, not abstains. With 10 votes we need 5 friends, with 9 or 8 votes we need 4 friends, and with 7 votes only 3 need to be our friends.

 

[Cyc]

Actually, although I oppose a Diplo Victory, it could prove to be the most challenging to play and interesting to read, as we very well may lose the game.

The powers that be ensured the elimination of a Cultural Victory early on. My loss. When I can't get a CV and I know I'm going to win, I usually start another game or go for a new high score. A CV is "all that" for me. It's the reason for Civ3. Military conquest is ok for a while, but just gets too boring. Space race is just that. A race to get parts built (I agree with DS, but this race brings a lot of yawns too). Diplo is the worst for me. It forces you to build the UN quickly out of fear of not controlling the vote. Then you have to go through all this back-stabbing and ass-sucking routine to make sure you get the correct amount of votes in your column.

But as I'm basically not playing much here, it might be interesting to watch the rest of you do it UN-style. The possibility of losing the game unexpectedly throws in the spice. Imagine, US losing a Demogame? Get real. But going this route could enable that possibility. What I would have really liked to see was all you fast-talkers and master-planners win a Diplo Victory without building the UN. I've done that.

 

[Black_Hole]

you guys forgot histograph victory

 

[Cyc]

you guys forgot histograph victory

I didn't forget. That's what I meant by going for a new high score. I have nothing against a Histograph Victory and prefer it to a Diplo.

 

[Black_Hole]

I didn't forget. That's what I meant by going for a new high score. I have nothing against a Histograph Victory and prefer it to a Diplo.

maybe im the one that needs glasses

 

[Ashburnham]

I think the Histo victory is the best choice. A Histographic victory represents the best all-around civilization victory. Personally, I think we have played the Japanaticans very well (with a few minor setbacks). I think of Diplomatic victories as anti-climactic. All it takes is one Wonder and bribery. A Histographic victory is a) more challenging b) more interesting c)involves more of the Demogame citizens.

 

[MOTH]

The most recent poll on the subject was done at the start of November. In this poll Histo was actually the (just barely) perfered choice.

My summary of the 23 votes:
6 votes for Don't Care, I'm here for fun.
I've added these 6 votes to each of the percentages but not the numbers below.
Of the remaining 17 votes:
0 (26%) votes for Conquest or Domination
4 (43%) votes for SpaceShip
7 (57%) votes for Culture
11 (74%) votes for Diplomacy
12 (78%) votes for Histographic

Some analysis of the various currents:
2 unique votes for Culture. 1 Unique vote for SpaceShip. 1 Unique vote for Diplomatic.

3 people voted for Histographic who did not vote for Diplo.
2 people (including the unique vote) voted for Diplo who did not vote for Histo.

My personal choice for the greatest challenge would be to go for a Culture 100K win (actually more given the map size). We are still falling behind on this win target. We are currently have a 4 to 3 lead in culture vs France and are 138 cpt short of gaining 2 to 1. We would need to make up that difference and then we would need to also make enough culture get back up to 2-1 total. It would be a challenge to try and get this win.

I think we will need to have another poll to select the actual type of win and then another about how to achieve the win.

 

[Ashburnham]

Well now, if people insist on a culture win, the MoC would be more than happy to oblige.

 

[Provolution]

Do the Math, presently we cover 20-30 turns per month. At this pace a histograph would take more than a year, A game like this is already long overdue. Diplowin is the fastest and most dramatic given the diplomatic confusion of our nation. We may actually lose, and we deserve to lose if we do so.

 

[Cyc]

And thus the intrigue.

I believe a Culture Victory is not an option to us any longer. The "No Wonder" people made sure of that. It's kind of funny how we downplayed our Religious/Militaristic traits. Too bad.

That leaves Diplo, Histo, and Space Ship. Provo, we have never gone this slow before. This is attributed to the play style of SD3. Unless he is planning on becoming our permenent President, the turns per month could increase dramatically. So a Histo could come much quicker.

But let's take a chance. Let's let the political wizards roll the die and see what happens. If we loose, hey it's only a game...

 

[Provolution]

Religious amd militaristic traits! Whenever I think Japanatica and my rhetoric I try to put forwards these traits both in gameplay and in mode of communication. But some people believe they live in a perpetual Kofi Annam Phantasy where any murder of digital AI citizens make them cyberspace war criminals which denies them "Good kid" status by Santa Claus. Like a chessplayer needs to wrap it in "Sorry son, but I need to lead this horse away for you, he is not going to be hurt, merely kept in the stable for grooming". At this stage, where Civ3 is a game, it is plain and simple rational, China will be the runner up rival for the vote-, we need to kill off 2-3 civs to be comfortable, if we lose a couple of units to win the game so what we are the superppower, what about this whiney democracy and war weariness, a religious civ can shift regime at will, and easily win wars, heck, even easily get great leaders for wonders.

I even managed to prepare the elite units for the great leader job.
But what do I hear: Non-civ related Amnesty International jibber, totally unrelated to militaristic and religious trait. And what do I hear next, that since this is a democracy game, we should act like a clone of Hans Blix, Kofi Annam and Rigoberta Menchu, topped off with Mother Theresa since its christmas- And listen to this, countering the in.game rivel China for a diplowin is considered "tunnelisighted and xenophobic", by the ones maybe liking China and Chinese in particular IRL, utterly unrelated to binary China in this particular game file. This is turning more like some bizarre "Matrix" style version of Alice in Wonderland with a blend of some TV reality show: "Make a defense contractor share a strategy game site for 6 months with rabid liberals and see what happens" and finally Travelplanet "Meet Japanatica - The Nation State of Teletubbies".

You are right Cyc, this game has turned insanely schoolgirl like, which is frightening given that our only two lady company we got here, seems to be more militaristic and goal oriented with this game than the majority here.

I am not suggesting to be General War Criminal Tojo reincarnate, merely to deliver a miliaristic-religious performance of a diplomatic win in character with our chosen Civ.

If we are to play like this next time, I suggest custom CIV "Sweden- Welfare State".

Give a bloody xmas war to old provo. please.