Musings on upgrading... 939 or 754 socket

Harleqin

Hippo Power
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Jan 9, 2002
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Right, my old comp is reaching the stage where I can't relay delay replacing it anymore. I mean... I can't even really run a standard huge Civ3 Conquests map without intolerable delays and I'd really like to run the new Civ4 and also Rome Total War... and most likely the new Medieval TW as well.

So, I've been looking into upgrading. I'm on a really, really tight budget, so I need to get hold of something that will do the trick for me and function for some 4-5 years. I realize that the games demand more and more power, but I do have less and less time to play and when I do it's primarily strategy and not FPS games, so I should be able to get by.

Originally I considered an AMD Athlon 3000, 939 socket Venice core as that could later be upgraded quite a bit. I'm locked in on wanting a GeForce 6600 as the newer are too expensive and the older seems to have trouble with Civ4... possibly with the 6200 as an exception. I don't know that much about ATI, but think it would need to be at least a 9800 card.
I'll be looking a 1 GB of RAM, but the mb needs to be able to upgrade up to 3 GB. That seems standard now anyway though.

I looked at the Asus 939dual-sata2 board which runs both AGP and PCIe slots for the graphicscard as I could then get an AGP and later upgrade to a PCIe.

And then I got thinking. My comps usually have a lifeexpectancy of about 5 years. My current is about 6 years I think and has only been upgraded with a larger harddrive... so it's still clocking in with an awesome 800MHz CPU and an old TNT2 Riva gpx card ;)

So, about my thoughts... considering the time before I'm planning on upgrading again... is there any point to get a 939socket? I know my budget will be very, very small the next 4 years, so I most likely wont be able to upgrade even if I want and once I will, then considering the development in prices it shouldn't be too bad to replace the motherboard and get whatever basic CPU is out at the time. Most likely dual-core CPUs will be so cheap by then that I'll need to replace the board anyway...

So, keeping that in mind, is there really any good reason to choose a 3000+ 939 socket over a 754socket with the same speed considering the 939 is twice as expensive? The mb will also be slightly cheaper while the gpxcard will be the same. It should be a saving of something like 100US$ with which I could then get Civ4 and 1-2 other games as well :)

What would you do if you knew you needed to upgrade about now and have it last for some 4-5 years? Your budget prevents you from getting anything better than the AMD Athlon 3000 Venice CPU... and even that is close to stretching it.

I'm thinking more and more that it is better to go cheap and adequate now rather than spend more and still have to replace the same stuff later.

So... maybe some AMD Athlon 3000+ 754, 1 GB ram (later more) and a GF6600 AGP card? Remember, no fast moving shooting games. Just strategy and maybe a good adventure game if something in the Monkey Island style comes out.
 
If you're fairly certain that you won't want to upgrade soon (I would say within the next 2 years or so) there's no reason to take S939 over S754. The thing is that S754 will basically lock you out of any upgrades at all, without a motherboard upgrade as well, whereas going with S939 setup now should (with a BIOS update) allow you to upgrade to any processor up to the FX-60.

I don't recall the differences between the S939 and S754 versions of the 3000+ right offhand, but I can't imagine that there's enough difference to justify double the price. If you go that route though, you might look at using part of that money saved (if you're willing to sacrifice a game ;) )and invest in a slightly better CPU or graphics card.

I'm locked in on wanting a GeForce 6600 as the newer are too expensive and the older seems to have trouble with Civ4... possibly with the 6200 as an exception. I don't know that much about ATI, but think it would need to be at least a 9800 card.

I would seriously look at a GF6600GT (or perhaps a GF6800GS - I'm not sure how much more expensive it is compared to the 6600GT though). The vanilla 6600 is a fairly underpowered card, while the 6600GT is a nice little card for a very decent price. 6600GTs run around $120, IIRC.

get 939. 754 is already outdated

Outdated? Yes. Useless? No.

Like I said, the difference performance wise between comperable S939 and S754 CPUs should be minimal. There no real point in worrying about being "up to date" anyway. In just a few months S939 will also be outdated, with AM2 as the new king.
 
I can vouch that a 6600GT has no trouble running Rome:TW. As for upgrading, just remember that you'll be unlikely to find 754 or AGP components in a few years worth upgrading to.
 
Yeah, I know that the 754 is already at the end of the line and if I get it then I won't be able to upgrade it unlike with a 939.
However, if it is to last for 4-5 years then it shouldn't be a problem at that time to update to whatever will come after the 939... and then I'd have to replace an eventual 939 cpu and mb anyway.

6600GT you say? I'll have a look at it.
 
Speedo said:
If you're fairly certain that you won't want to upgrade soon (I would say within the next 2 years or so) there's no reason to take S939 over S754. The thing is that S754 will basically lock you out of any upgrades at all, without a motherboard upgrade as well, whereas going with S939 setup now should (with a BIOS update) allow you to upgrade to any processor up to the FX-60.

I didn't know that. I figured I would need a new motherboard for the new generation anyway. Even so, the board is usually not the expensive part ;)
I'll need to read about that FX-60 gadget.

But thanks :) I'm getting more focused now on the 754.

It's bound to be better than the socketA cpu I got now :lol:
 
Speedo said:
I don't recall the differences between the S939 and S754 versions of the 3000+ right offhand...
The main difference is that S939 allows dual channel memory.
 
Hello Harleqin,

I had the exactly same problem about half a year ago, so mybe my advice can be of help.

Right, my old comp is reaching the stage where I can't relay delay replacing it anymore. I mean... I can't even really run a standard huge Civ3 Conquests map without intolerable delays and I'd really like to run the new Civ4 and also Rome Total War...

As a foreword, Civ4 and RTW run perfectly smooth on high to max details on my system, some choppines on largest battles in RTW, but the same problem has even the fastest machine money can buy, if you add another 1000 warriors to the battle.
S754 3400 (2,4GHz, Newcastle)
Asus K8N-E (AGP, Nforce3 250GB)
GeForce 6800 AGP 128 MB (passive cooling)
1 Gig RAM
330W Tagan PSU and a pack of silent fans
HDD Samsung 160 GB P-ATA
Perfecly stable, and barely audible if the CPU hasn't much to do.
all together at around 700 Euros, and I expect to stick with it for at least the next two years, maybe adding a second Gig of RAM.

So, I've been looking into upgrading. I'm on a really, really tight budget, so I need to get hold of something that will do the trick for me and function for some 4-5 years.
Don't expect anything you can buy now to last that long as a gaming machine, but maybe we are lucky ...
If you expect the system to last that long electricly and mechanicaly, refrain from buying the cheapest components, it will hurt in the long run.

I'm locked in on wanting a GeForce 6600 as the newer are too expensive and the older seems to have trouble with Civ4... possibly with the 6200 as an exception.

Don't even think about something that sounds like X200/X300... from nvidia, don't know about the ATI-counterparts. Even if it has enough power for civ4, the next game(and certainly RTW) will probably the end. If you expect your rig to last some time, your primary concern should be the Video Card. A 6600 can be considered the absolute minimum for your purposes, you can get one for ~100 EUR, for ~130 EUR a 6600GT and for ~150 EUR a 6800 AGP, the relative performance of the cards should be rougly proportional to the prize, the 6800 even a bit ahead.

I looked at the Asus 939dual-sata2 board which runs both AGP and PCIe slots for the graphicscard as I could then get an AGP and later upgrade to a PCIe.
Half a year ago the existing or announced combo boards (AGP/PCIe) had a crippled AGP, running only with PCI (=AGP 0,5x)-speed at best. If the situation has changed this may be an interesting option, otherwise it would be a waste of money for the video card.

So, about my thoughts... considering the time before I'm planning on upgrading again... is there any point to get a 939socket? I know my budget will be very, very small the next 4 years, so I most likely wont be able to upgrade even if I want and once I will, then considering the development in prices it shouldn't be too bad to replace the motherboard and get whatever basic CPU is out at the time. Most likely dual-core CPUs will be so cheap by then that I'll need to replace the board anyway...

The CPU will be probably the last thing you want to replace in the foreseeable future. There will probably never be a single-core CPU significantly faster than a 2 GHz Athlon64 for the desktop, so only multi-core remains as a question. But multi-core only matters if the application in question can use more than one CPU effectively. If you look at the multi-core next-gen consoles, the game programmers are rumored to have severe problems with multi-threading the game code. The companies have known for a long time that the new consoles will only perform well if all the cores are put to good use, apparently to no avail. So my bet is that the point where even a second core will make a difference between a smooth and a choppy game is still quite a few years in the future, certainly further away then the end-of-life of the S939.

So, keeping that in mind, is there really any good reason to choose a 3000+ 939 socket over a 754socket with the same speed considering the 939 is twice as expensive? The mb will also be slightly cheaper while the gpxcard will be the same. It should be a saving of something like 100US$ with which I could then get Civ4 and 1-2 other games as well
Probably a comparable video card in the low- to mid-range will be even cheaper for AGP, at least for the 6800 variants. But the bigggest chunk ist the CPU, i don't think that there is a reason for a non-overclocker to go S939, you don't get any return for the price premium, in the worst case you may even get a performance penalty if you decide to upgrade your RAM at some time in the future.
If your favourite video card is available for PCIe at a reasonable price, then one of the S754/PCIe boards should be the way to go.

What would you do if you knew you needed to upgrade about now and have it last for some 4-5 years? Your budget prevents you from getting anything better than the AMD Athlon 3000 Venice CPU... and even that is close to stretching it.

As hinted above, I would recommend a system almost identical to the one I bought 6 month ago, adjusted for your personal preferences /wallet concerning video card and case/cooling and of course parts availability.
The Venice core is in my opinion not worth the +20EUR price tag if the newcastle is still available.

Hopefully this is of some help, happy shopping :)
 
Half a year ago the existing or announced combo boards (AGP/PCIe) had a crippled AGP, running only with PCI (=AGP 0,5x)-speed at best. If the situation has changed this may be an interesting option, otherwise it would be a waste of money for the video card.

The Asrock 939-Dual SATA2 is a great little board, especially for its price. I know several people who have used it because they want to keep an AGP card they already have, and except for a few fairly minor issues they give it a thumbs up.

Anandtech also did a review of it last fall, giving it praise.

Seems the 6600GT and 6800 are almost on par at RTW, but it may be a good idea to browse some of the other benchmarks for getting the feel for the possible variations at different games.

Like the vanilla 6600, the vanilla 6800 is very underpowered. In most cases you'll actually find a 6600GT out performing it by a significant margin.
 
I second Speedo in recommending the ASRock board. I have one in one of the 2 home PCs, since I wasn't ready to upgrade my FX 5200 video card at the time. If I remember correctly, it also supports AM2 socket CPU, with a minor BIOS upgrade.
 
Get 939. 754 is older, and does not support dual channel ram. S939 is likely to be around fro a while once the socket 939 semprons are out. I think it will be quite a while before the semprons are migrated to M2, and AMD kills S939. another argument against S754 is that thoes processors are biscally the old Socket A cpu's with 64-bit extensions, and the hyper transport technology. S939 is based off the Opteron and is much newer and more advanced technology all together
as for the Asrock S939 Dual-Sata, great board! lots of great reviews for it!
the geforce 6600 is a great card. make sure to get the 256 meg verson,. 128 megs would do you, for now, but theres a lot of games coming out there where 256 is recomended
1 gig of ram is also pretty much the minimum for gaming these days as well, I would go for 2 gigs if i was building a new computer right now
 
If I remember correctly, it also supports AM2 socket CPU, with a minor BIOS upgrade.

It has an slot for an add-in card (which you'll have to buy seperately after AM2's release) which holds the AM2 CPU and DDR2 RAM.
 
Speedo said:
It has an slot for an add-in card (which you'll have to buy seperately after AM2's release) which holds the AM2 CPU and DDR2 RAM.

Does this effect the efficiency of the CPU? to have it sit on an add-on card rather than the mobo itself?
 
Does this effect the efficiency of the CPU? to have it sit on an add-on card rather than the mobo itself?

As the CPU and memory on the add-on board is connected to the original board via hypertransport, there should be almost no difference, as a hypertransport link is the kind of connection used on all the regular athlon64 boards between CPU/memory and the chipset
 
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