My collection of crazy ideas

You said it. Some of these ideas ARE pretty crazy. Disregarding the insane amount of coding involved in some of them (not that I'm a programmer), they would turn the balance of FFH II on its proverbial ear. Here's what I see as the problems:

Amurites: They already have plenty of power and flavor if you approach them correctly. Making every unit a caster sounds like a great idea until you're faced with an army of hunters carrying an equally large army of hawks all capable of summoning big, fat elementals to rain destruction down upon your capital. Sure, they'd have to leave a few to protect the stacks, but this suggestion is immensely overpowered. Let's not even start with the potential horrors of the fireballs or meteors such units could eventually unleash. "Ouch! I'm on fire! Make stop the burnings!"

Belseraphs: The mime ability seems benign enough at first, but such a thing would be quite overpowered and horrific in a game with such potential for very powerful world units and such. One could use one t4 mime unit under sufficient escort to wipe the world clean of heroes and the like! Think of what happens when mimes defeat Acheron or worse yet, an even more powerful late-game unit. It's a whole new avatar of wrath or Hyborem or Basium, sitting inside a city, waiting for your army to come make him very, very weak by throwing themselves at him. Well, perhaps it's not so overpowered after all. Perhaps it's simply sloppy and useless.

Bannor: If you're playing the Bannor and your capital has somehow been attacked to the extent that it is no longer defended, you haven't been playing very well. Having the palace continually eat population to spawn warriors strikes me as a particularly Calabim thing to do. There are already plenty of ways to hurry-build defenders with civics a Bannor player under Crusade would find most appealing. There is no need to implement such an idea, even if it wouldn't be the coding nightmare I expect.

Calabim: Losing xp over time due to hunger doesn't make much sense. Losing attack/defense strength over time to hunger would be more appropriate, but that would require coding things so that a vampiric unit must win a battle every X turns or suffer Y% damage. This is one of the better concepts you've presented, but is still a bit more complexity that the game doesn't actually need to be playable and balanced.

Clan of Embers: This isn't such a bad one, either. It might not even be that hard to code. I wouldn't know about that. The only issue I see is that perhaps with all these higher-tiered orcish units spawning inside one's own borders, what happens if you'd like to employ units with hidden nationality to weaken your rivals? They would be doomed from the start, or at best have an immense pool of xp from slaying countless orcish crossbowmen or whatever. Thus it is unbalanced, one way or the other. Try a Terra map if you like mid- to late-game barbarians. You'll arrive on the New World to hundreds of orcish crossbowmen or their equivalent.

Doviello: Regardless of the fact that Charadon may already receive your proposed barbarian buff, this one seems to be based on good intentions. Tundra tiles and certain civs' affinities for them should be addressed in some way, though I'll wait for Ice before I go too far down that road. One population working two one-food tiles would be about as effective as an undeveloped grasslands city, though it would only ever reach half the population of such a city. The best way to build on tundra is to find some deer near a river on a coast where one can farm the tundras with access to fresh water, camp the deer for extra food, build a lighthouse for the coastal food and gold, and hope for forest spread to lumbermill. The basic problem of civs' affinities for tundra does deserve some attention, which I suspect it may be given in Ice.

Elohim: The Great Wall concept is a bit much for a civ who already has the defensive trait. Placement of one's troops is paramount to surviving attack. With the new fort mechanics, I wonder how effective a mounted rush can truly be against any well-played civ, particularly a defensive one.

Grigori: There is a reason that adventurers are scarce in the late game. No other civilization has access to such overwhelming numbers of heroes, and rightly so. The Grigori have this to make up for the fact that they can neither adopt nor found religions, and it is balanced enough as it stands. With the new world spell, Cassiel's people will have even more of these very powerful units which can be upgraded. Adding this new specialist only serves to further complicate an already challenging-to-play civilization.

Hippus: Having more horses doesn't seem to justify easier withdrawal. Each soldier can still only ride one horse, after all. There is already ample reason to have multiple sources of horse as the Hippus: simple trade. Horses are a strategic resource which can be traded for mana, iron, and other very useful goods. Adding an affinity makes the already high withdrawal rate of Hippus units even more open to abuse. "My city was attacked by 20 horsemen. Only two of them died."

Infernals: Think of using this against the poor Khazad. Suddenly an entire stretch of continent must be sailed 'round to access. No more need be said.

Ljosalfar: I agree with you on this one. Being able to grow forest on existing Elven improvements makes a lot of sense concerning both flavor and balance. Why should the elves have to tear down unforested improvements just to make way for a bloom spell? For that matter, it should apply to Svartalfar as well. Though a forested city still should not provide the city tile itself with any appreciable bonus beyond what it has already as a city tile. Let's not see a city built on deer in an ancient forest granting 4+ food or any such silliness. Might be difficult to code the game around this, though...

Luchuirp: Storing golems seems a phenomenally bad idea. Imagine your dismay on surrounding a Luchuirp city with two or three defenders only to see dozens of golems spring up and trounce your army with the aid of a few repair spells. The game does not need this new complexity, and the "hidden" nature of such an idea flies in the face of the Svartalfar/Sidar theme of Shadow mana. Golems are meant to be used up and thrown away, not hoarded like Acheron's wealth.

Malakim: While I sympathize that desert affinity is quite possibly as crippling as tundra affinity, one should not forget the simple Scorch spell. This one tiny spell makes it possible to plant a stack of units in enemy territory and give them a virtual instant fortress with the ability to summon sand lions from within. How would one "build" an oasis, anyway? that just doesn't make very much sense to me. Besides, anyone can build a water node for those desert squares that simply must be worked. Leave a buffer of desert squares containing forts to discourage incursions. That works well enough.

Mercurian: Not rightly sure what you are hoping to accomplish with this. Basium is plenty powerful enough already. Having him sanctify nearby tiles, while certainly flavorful, serves little real purpose in-game other than to further annoy the player of Hyborem (of which he does a fine job as it stands). The nature of Basium's summoning already provides an advantage over Hyborem if the builder of the Mercurian gate is willing to sacrifice a sizable city to the Mercurian. This fellow needs no additional help, far as I can see.

At any rate, it is not my intention to insult or anger you, it-ogo, but merely my thoughts on your ideas. As noted, some are good ones. Some are bad. Brainstorming like this makes FFH a better mod for all of us. I know I've had my share of bad ideas, so no hard feelings. Happy Shadowing!














 
I especially love the Bannor idea. Would be great flavor for the currently pretty bland civ, and make them a lot more formidable. As the others have suggested, I'd expand it to all the cities and merge it with the draft function, making it a random check (based on city size, maybe?) instead of automatic. The capitol would always spawn at least one defender, though.
 
firstly, I think your ideas are great. I dont agree with all of them but I wont comment on whats already been said and what i agree with. Only one thing you should consider: imagine if you allow forest to be cast in cities this will make the elves uber strong at defending. Just think of those permanent lvl 2 nature summons with 9 or something strength and the additional defense bonus from forest terrain. Alternatively you could change those summons to be weaker or not permament but I like them how they are right now.

I must say I like the luchuirp idea the best. Its realistic and I dont think its game breaking because you still have to build those golems and i cant remember anytime I stopped producing military units because of maintenance cost but instead because I prefer producing buildings and wonders. I still think the Luchuirp are underpowered due to the inabilty of golems to gain experience especially in the early game when its really hard to lvl barnaxus. If they make it to the late game they will eventually become very strong though I cant remember any game where the Luchuirps were dominating. Didnt play them very often but if I did I would just go for archmages and those riflemen but if I could just store them I would definitely find the golem strategy more interesting.
 
@ it-ogo
Nice :) Of course, some of your ideas are insane (Amurites, Balseraphs, Infernals),
Oh! Then Balseraph Idea is perfect just therefore! :D

The Clan/Diovello barb spawning seems balanced too - it makes them annoying neighbours even if you're at peace with them. Maybe combine this with some way of converting said (non-unique) barbs in your territory for a supply of free units?

As for me it is not so good. Actually it looks like Sheaim mechanism of planar gates but worse. So, it is not enough unique.

I think the Calabim bit might be cool. Not -1 XP per turn, but like the reverse of an adept, so that after 10 turns or so you lose the equivalent of one feast. Then a player wouldn't gift to every unit that was eligible, but save it for an elite few, 1-3 per city.
Yes, that is what i mean.

Although it might not have much of an effect, assuming you feast several turns in a row and spend all the XP at once; no matter how much XP you lose you won't lose promotions
I know. Not really much change in balance. But at least if you will leave that promoted guy for a long time then his next advance will be more problematic. And BTW if you grant vampirism to your high-level spellcasters their time progress will be stopped: two mechanisms neutralise each other.

Idea came from the statements about earthling ;) undead vampires that they ALWAYS feel a strong bloodthirst even if they drunk much and physically unable to drink more. And that make them crazy.

Major negative point of this idea is the following: more micromanagement.

Wow! Thanks for such an impressive comment! I'll try to answer.

Amurites: They already have plenty of power and flavor if you approach them correctly.
I did not say they have not enough power. I just do not like their gameplay and feel it not enough specific.


Making every unit a caster sounds like a great idea until you're faced with an army of hunters carrying an equally large army of hawks all capable of summoning big, fat elementals to rain destruction down upon your capital.
Well... Hawk-spellcaster is too much even for me. Maybe parrot... :D
Indeed proposed spellcasters are much more difficult to obtain. E.g. casting fireball needs at least level 6 (not 4 like mage), casting 3rd level spell needs at least level 10 (not 6 like archmage). And there is no free promos, so at least 7 of 9 promos gained from level ups should be specifically magic (arcane, sourcery1,2,3; element1,2,3 ) so forget about combat 5 and easy combat XP. This magic has really slow start. I suspect with such conditions Amurites may become UNDERpowered.

Belseraphs:
I am afraid you did not get the idea. Mime promo is passed. So if you killed Acheron by mime unit, unit turns to Acheron but keeps mime promo. And after the next fight you have no more Acheron. It is hard to get but easy to lose. I think overall mime slightly weaken Balseraphs. It is for flavor and for the toy.

Of cause - it is only for flavor. Not much advantage.
The same.

Clan of Embers:
Remember that there is no collecting barbs like on Terra. They spawn and go just providing a few harassment (and XP) for neighbours. There is a small protecting factor against invaders and that is all. Barbs only may be collected if Clan civ occupies full continent. Then barb army may be comparible to the army of Clan - double protection! But that is even more interesting to assault! :)
And again: if Clan grows too strong barbs declare war on it. Surprise!

Doviello:
I met several ideas on tundra affinity and my one is not very strong. Well... Let us wait for Ice and hope to be useful for team.

Agreed.

Hippus: Having more horses doesn't seem to justify easier withdrawal.
Hmm... I think it should justify at least something. :D
Each soldier can still only ride one horse, after all.
That is not quite true. ;) One of the main reason of unprecedented mobility of Genghis Khan army was active use of several horses per warrior.
And at least in Russian there is a term translated as two-horse-riding. It means riding with two horses from time to time jumping from one to another. Perfect for most important couriers but needs a serious skill.

Adding an affinity makes the already high withdrawal rate of Hippus units even more open to abuse. "My city was attacked by 20 horsemen. Only two of them died."
Mongols were able to run away several times in one battle and finally win. That was their typical tactics. Khoresmean and European knights had no possibility to get enough close to them to abuse. :lol:

Infernals: Think of using this against the poor Khazad. Suddenly an entire stretch of continent must be sailed 'round to access. No more need be said.
There ARE ways to be protected. Just try!

Let's not see a city built on deer in an ancient forest granting 4+ food or any such silliness.
As I know income from tile under the city does not depend on tile properties in any way.

Luchuirp:
Well... I had no thought that stored golems can be hidden... Thanks for the idea. :crazyeye:
Golems are meant to be used up and thrown away, not hoarded like Acheron's wealth.
Let us leave it up to Luchuirp. Hope they will find it useful. ;)

Malakim: How would one "build" an oasis, anyway?
Errr... artesian well? :p

At any rate, it is not my intention to insult or anger you
Me too. I am happy and inspired! Thank you once more. Happy Shadowing!
 
I especially love the Bannor idea...
What you say is acceptable IMO. I was hesitating if to suggest it for all cities or only one. Finally i think it is not overpowered even for all Bannor cities with more then let us say 90% of Bannor influence.

Only one thing you should consider: imagine if you allow forest to be cast in cities this will make the elves uber strong at defending. Just think of those permanent lvl 2 nature summons with 9 or something strength and the additional defense bonus from forest terrain.
And Treetop defence spell. I did not think about it. Hmm... But elven cities are forest cities beginning from Tolkien! :)

I must say I like the luchuirp idea the best...
Yes, exactly! My logic and reasons are perfectly the same.
 
(and the Bannor capital certainly was captured; they capital was Braduk, now "the Burning."
'Captured' isn't exactly the word I'd use for this situation ;)
 
Thanks for not taking offense to my critiques, first and foremost. And now for my retorts:

As far as the Amurites go, it is entirely possible to own any map through the sheer numbers of fireballs their units can summon. I cannot stress enough how firebows have meant such overwhelming victory for me so many times in that fireballs are units like summons, but carry none of the baggage that summons do. Collateral damage only helps your army of archers own the city in question. You no longer need seige engines. How does that lack flavor or power? I simply don't understand when you guys say that the Amurites are bland. They are quite possibly one of the more flavorful civilizations in FFH, as far as I can see. Perhaps I'm just partial to their mechanics...

What you speak of with raising caster levels would only require more coding on the team's part, and one must ask oneself as a responsible fan of the game: In the end, does this mean a better game? I opposed this idea not because it was inherently bad, but because it seems to add more complexity and coding to an already complex modification of a complex game. At the end of the day, it would only make things more confusing and more complicated than necessary. To paraphrase Kael himself, "Adding complexity in the name of realism does not make a game better..." I am inclined to agree here. The fact remains that Govannon can teach hawks haste, summon skeleton, etc. So it is best to work with the mechanics available to attain a more believable, balanced game. This saves the team work, and it saves us players having to wrap our heads around another reworking of the rules. You also seem to forget the Cave of Ancestors wonder, which is one of the more flavorful aspects of the Amurites? Would you do away with it in the name of more flavor? I find it to be one of their best attributes. As far as Amurites being underpowered, consider the effect on the game of an entire civ, every unit of which can cast death I (summon skeleton). That alone would prove more army than anyone would be prepared to deal with. Nevermind what might happen if in time of war Amurite workers could scorch plains and summon endless sand lions or anything else? Too many units, and too much power for one civ to have.

Concerning the Belseraph mimery, I did get the idea. At the end of that paragraph, I reversed my previous statement that it would be overpowered. At times, it would be too strong, and at times too weak. The idea itself is not a bad one, but too tricky to implement into such a delicate game balance. Yes, my mime who just killed Acheron will lose the promotions when killed by Mr. Joe Warrior, but I've still done the damage, and Mr. Joe Warrior just weakened my unit immeasurably simply by dying at his hands. I like the concept, but don't like the necessary execution of it. Leave it to FF Tactics to deal with mimes. I think they have little place here.

As far as the Bannor trait being only for flavor, why introduce new code and mechanics into a game simply in the name of flavor if such code/mechanics could not do it on their own (which I believe they can)? Hurrying a current tech-level unit with the Bannor still well surpasses the ability for warriors to spawn from their all-but-defeated cities. Would anyone ever actually use this? Would it make for a better gameplay experience in any case? I'm afraid I'd have to answer negatively on both counts.

I won't even touch the Calabim trait here. I've said my piece on that, and it still stands.

For Barbs: I must say I've never thought the Barbarian trait to be a worthwhile expenditure of a trait in a leader. The 10% penalty does not in my opinion make up in any way for the inability to capture Orthus' axe without someone else getting it first or the inability to capture the Dragon's Hoard without someone else getting it first. Though the equipment rules in Shadow supercede this, it is uncertain how they will actually relate to the game at large. I must say I'm still wary to take such a hefty research hit just to rest easy from barbarians, when I could have units out there gaining combat experience from defeating them. I do like the idea of late-game barbarians, but how to implement it well is another story. You're onto something, but I'm not sure the way you've suggested is the best or most balanced for the game in the end.

As for the Hippus, yes, you could use a "Pony Express" rationale for it, but that strikes me as rather sloppy. This is probably more my personal taste than anything mechanical, but it seems to me that the game mechanics for the Hippus work fine the way they are. As it stands, a Hippus player can still have quite a few horse units with 90%(or close to it) withdrawal rate, which means that on average, when 20 attack, only 2 actually die. Increase that withdrawal rate, and things really start to get crazy...

Infernals: Sure, there are ways to be protected. But turning all hills into peaks?! I mean, what happens to cities on hills? Does a player simply lose them? That hardly seems balanced at all. No other spell or ability (even one that utterly destroys the casting unit) has the power to eradicate an entire city. This simply isn't balanced or fair, regardless of coding problems it would most likely present.

Resources under cities do provide a small bonus to the city tile itself. For example: A city built on wheat gains 1 food on its city tile. It's not as much as if you developed the tile in the city's fat cross, but it's something. I just don't want to see forests/ancient forests (which should not be on cities' tiles anyhow, save for the terrain defense bonus, likely to be superceded by a city's cultural defense) providing anything additional to the city in which they have grown. That could lead to even more startling abuses of forests/ancient forests than which the elves are already capable.

Yes, I know of Artesian wells, and while a sound concept, one must question whether an Artesian well would be capable of supporting the variety and quantity of life that could a naturally-occurring oasis. Either way, letting the Malakim create the things would be very unbalancing, as every one of their plains tiles would be scorched to a desert/oasis, which produces far more. Again, good idea, but not fit for the game as a whole.

Perhaps I did not state that many of your ideas do have some merit and believability to them, but simply are not feasible for the game as far as I can tell. More complexity does not make it better. I fell into that trap some time ago with my ridiculous suggestion regarding Great Generals/Great Commanders and the Grigori. Some of the things you have presented would make this a better game for all, and I hope that eventually they are implemented. In the meantime, may our (as the entire player base's) debates over these myriad suggestions spur the team on to new heights of creativity for future patches of our favorite mod.

I'm holding my breath for Sunday...


 
I am a builder-style player. May be that is a problem.

What you speak of with raising caster levels would only require more coding on the team's part, and one must ask oneself as a responsible fan of the game: In the end, does this mean a better game?
That all may be true but see my preface in the first post. I do not consider coding complexity as I am not enough competent in modding mechanisms of civ4. Let the team deside, I just have a pleasure of producing ideas. :)

And, you see, first nation I started FFH with randomly happened to be Kuriotates. I was completely overwhelmed by Sprawling trait - I did not believe such variation could be ever properly coded and balanced. But it was. I did not put any ideas on Kuriotates here just because each time when I recall them I become completely happy of Sprawling and unable to produce ideas.

As far as Amurites being underpowered, consider the effect on the game of an entire civ, every unit of which can cast death I (summon skeleton).
But it is the case now with Govannon, no? And what? :) And BTW last time I checked, skeletons needed fee.

As far as the Bannor ... Would anyone ever actually use this? Would it make for a better gameplay experience in any case?
What is it came from? When I make an invasion against AI with a big army my war usually divided into two phases. 1) I declare war, cross the border and my tough stacks are intensively attacked from all sides. 2) AI spared all its collected army but few city defenders and sit waiting when I am taking his cities one by one.

The second phase was always too boring for me. Approach city, make magic bombardment, kill everybody, repeat. But imagine that people are fanatics and never give up! I kill all the army but they go, go and go (uninjured by bombardment) until there is no city to capture. Scorched land defenders. Surprise! Catarsis! :) And while you spend many time to capture one city they already built a new army!

For Barbs:
I do not like to play Clan too. Prefer have them as neighbours. And my suggestion just from that point of view: let their barbs harass me all the time, that will help me not to lose the form in the time of peace.

Infernals: This simply isn't balanced or fair, regardless of coding problems it would most likely present.
You know, Infernals are strongly unbalanced NOW. They are too weak. And therefore too peacefull. Hyborem now is not someone who produce horror and suffer but a humble leader of a small third-world country with bad ecology.

Resources under cities do provide a small bonus to the city tile itself. For example: A city built on wheat gains 1 food on its city tile.
Didn't know!

Spoiler :
Yes, I know of Artesian wells, and while a sound concept, one must question whether an Artesian well would be capable of supporting the variety and quantity of life that could a naturally-occurring oasis.

Most natural oasis are grown around a small water source which is used very economically. Artesian well with its strong underground pressure provides much, much more water.

Either way, letting the Malakim create the things would be very unbalancing, as every one of their plains tiles would be scorched to a desert/oasis, which produces far more.
Oasis is 3f2g forever (right?), grassland farm starts from 4f (with agriculture) +1g on the riverside, +1f with sanitation. grassland grown town - 2f4g +1g on the riverside. Lanun coast tile with lighthouse 3f2g (the same!) for Hannah 3f3g. Ancient forest without any improvements 3f1h, with elven town 3f1h4g. Oasis does not look overpowered at all. Not so bad but no more. Actually in most cases I'd prefer spring desert and build cottage then scorch plain and build oasis.

In the meantime, may our (as the entire player base's) debates over these myriad suggestions spur the team on to new heights of creativity for future patches of our favorite mod.
So be it! :)
 
'Captured' isn't exactly the word I'd use for this situation ;)
... And after the dishonour of Braduk Bannor sworn never more to give up their cities. :p
 
... And after the dishonour of Braduk Bannor sworn never more to give up their cities. :p

Unless Junil falls through Torrolerial and makes it a hell of Law...
 
It-ogo... I presume you've seen the changelog for Shadow... Looking very interesting, no? Can't wait to play it. Govannon's a hero now! woot

Lots of interesting changes there, some of which seem vaguely familiar, if not identical to suggestions I swear I've read someplace before... hm...

Just have to wait an entire day now for Shadow's release. Best wishes.
 
I think that a stored golem shouldn't lose health but while they are stored they should have no defence eg. 6/0. And while they are stored they are invisible, but it should take two, maybe three turns to wake them up again. I think that would be enough to balnce it, if you want to conquor a lurchip city you just have to do it quick...
 
A change I'd like to see for the Amurites to SLIGHTLY reduce the micro-management is if someone taught by Govannon can then go on to teach other people. Then you don't have to cart your hero around everywhere, but can have your standard city defenders teach any newly built unit.
 
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