My Elite tanks defeated by a veteran pikeman

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I think I heard somebody mention that they did a test earlier in this thread that they put 40 tanks against 40 spearmen. The person said that they lost a total of 3 tanks. What I would like to know is if tank withdrawals are included in the 3 that were defeated. If not, how many tanks withdrew from the spearmen in the test? :spear:

Oh I just want to show you guys something cool I made up:
THE THREE STAGES LEADING TO HITLER'S SUICIDE:
1. :goodjob: 2. :cringe: 3. :suicide:
 
OFF TOPIC: I'm laughing my pants off at that AA-battery!!! That should be your signiture!

ON TOPIC: Why do they have to have mercy on spearman down a Firaxis? It just plain sucks when you lose a tank to a obsolete foot unit!
 
OFF TOPIC: Thanks Norwegianviking! :beer: I probably would change that to my signature but usually no one pays attention to signatures, no matter how good they are. But if you include them in your post, You may get more reactions ( like the one you gave me! ). So every once in a while I might post it.

ON TOPIC: Where is that guy with the test? :mischief:

EDIT: I have improved it now so take a look:
THE FOUR STAGES LEADING TO HITLER'S SUICIDE:

1. :goodjob: 2. :cringe: 3. :suicide: 4. :devil2:
 
Hey all, first post here, hope I don't offend anyone...

To look at this issue historically, we indeed do find many occurrances of battles where troops of much lower technology or with highly stacked odds against them (or both) have won conflicts. Most of the time, wars have been lost even though conflicts have been won, but that is not always the case. For example Finland managed to withstand the blaze of the red army during the first world war.
(For those with no intrest in history, skip ahead.. others, read on..)
The soviets packed over ten times the troops, tanks and planes that the finns (I usually think of it as "us," being a finn...) and fired as many artillery rounds _per_day_ as the finnish army during the whole war. Yet we managed to get a peace treaty with the soviets, just when we would have begun failing.

Thats one example of technologically almost equal opponents with huge differences in strength involved. However the tech difference has its points too. For example during the second world war, when Hungary was being invaded by soviets, a unit of cavalry actually managed to hold off against an armored assault (thats tanks for those who don't relate with the lingo..) and even managed to counter-attack until they had recaptured a bridge lost earlier. Sometimes people can go to enormous lengths...

Then back to nowadays, someone said that nuclear weapons should be thigns killing everything. While I agree that they should, perhaps, do more damage to buildings, consider what would happen nowadays should nuclear missiles be launched: Everyone would run like hell into shelters. Obviously in the modern world we are prepared for a threat of that magnitude, and when a unit represents a whole army its only logical that a missile cant wipe it out, only damage equipment, kill some people, most of it can still be used, or was fully saved from damage.

And last but not least, we have balance. Game balance that is. People complain that you shouldn't have your industrial-age tanks lose to ancient spearmen. Now as much as I agree with that, we have to remember this is a game, not an accurate description of history. If we wanted more accuracy we would need more ages, more techs and more units than you could possibly want, at least, that is if we really wanted an accurate game.
But another thing we need to consider in the gaming aspect is that because this is a game, you are playing against artificial intelligence (most of the time..). And to put it straight, artificial intelligence is no match for real, human guile, cunning or downright sneakyness. We can be real sly bastards when we want to, planning ahead and making innocent seeming preparations for things to come. Now, the computers rarely do that. They mass their troops and run them around your borders, give a couple of threats and even declare an embargo against you before attacking. Even cranking up the level of the game just makes it more challenging by making certain rules apply to you, but not your opponents, like extra unhappines, extra corruption, and so on. The computer won't stand a chance. So they have been given some other little bonuses. At least to my experience the fights seem to get unfair only against the computers. Only against computers do modern riflemen and marines and tanks take a beating from stone-age dudes wielding melee-weapons. Only against computers do their archers manage to actually inflict damage on your mechanized infantry and TOW-squads. Only against a computer have I ever managed to lose a battleship fighting a galley. And as long as it is against the computers, I can take it. Its just a part of the game being unfair to me to make it easier for the computers to even have a small chance of winning. Its the same as corruption, is it fair that the computer seems to always suffer less corruption than you? Or have you ever destroyed a civ in an island/continent far away from all others? It would seem funny that no matter how empty, and how far from others, computers still always get a couple of cities up in two turns. Also, fog of war does not affect computers, they know all that happens anywhere on the map. Is this fair? No. but its part of the game to make it more challenging. Is it any more realistic than an army of spearmen winning against an army of tanks? No, but its part of the game.. I know I can't force you to believe in what I believe, and I know that even I'm often frustrated with it as it is, I still think its part of game balancing.

McManus

(and osrry for typos/bad language, een tho I consider english almost a mother-tongue, it is 5:52 AM, and I havent slept for quite a while... :))
 
Welcome to CFC, McManus! [party]

Good, long, informative post, so even though you didn't start you CFCing with a new thread (which is often essential to getting a welcome), I noticed it.

I agree. :goodjob:

BTW: The Japanese in WWII had skilled "tank hunters" that hid in holes in the ground, waiting for a tank to come, and would do something that I forgot to destroy the tank. I think it involved the tank hunter dying... :hmm:
 
Tomoyo said:
Welcome to CFC, McManus! [party]

BTW: The Japanese in WWII had skilled "tank hunters" that hid in holes in the ground, waiting for a tank to come, and would do something that I forgot to destroy the tank. I think it involved the tank hunter dying... :hmm:

He could put a limpet mine on the tank's hull.

:hmm:
Other than that: From beyond, he could just watch out for the leaf of a lime which usually marks the only vulnerable spot of an *almost* invincible one.;) Then he could hit the leaf with a spear... there:

:spear:

Or so I have heard from a tale.
 
TO McManus: i must commend you on a fair play mentality and the abillity to remain calm when wiped out by lesser units but u have to admit that a game which relies for 50% on expanding and other military victorious production it is slightly demotivating to upgrade ur units if that doesn't mean ur getting stronger.Don't misunderstand me, i love the game, but i love the military dominance as well and if out of 12 bombers onlly 2 strike the target i wonder why these units should be in the game anyway, i wonder also what the use of paratroopers are since u cant even drop them on an empty enemy city, things like that make me go, well,quite berserk... :eek:
 
doc mabuse: I do understand how you feel. But in the same time it just makes me smile. I mean, you have to admit it, you, I and even my girlfriend, we are superior. We can't be beaten by the AI on a level playing field. If you want proof of that, just play games in chieftain level, the game is at its most fair there. But then again, winning in chieftain is far too easy, innit? If out of 12 bombers only 2 hit, then what I think you need to do is build 120. Then you get 20 hits, and that ought to kill almost anything. :) I mean, the game wouldn't be fun if it didn't contain any challenge, would it? Well, this is the only way the games makers have seen that they can challenge us.

Instead of thinking that "I have tanks, one tank should wipe out atleast 10 spearmen," you have to start thinking like this: "because I've cranked up the level of the game, I know that I'll need at least 8 tanks and 5 pieces of artillery to conquer a city with three pikemen and a longbowman without taking substancial casualties. So I just have to work harder. Make my army three times its original size before considering an invasion. Or at least make sure that the parts I invade, I outnumber 10to1, and then make sure the troops will withstand a counterattack for long enough to get peace with the enemy. Win them over piece by piece."

Like I said, I understand how you feel. The game is unfair. It's unrealistic. So what we need to do, is just build a military machine much stronger than before, and tackle that challenge. And we will win. Personally I play at monarch level, because it gives me good chances of winning, but still manages to give me a challenge, cause usually with a huge map and maxed enemies, when I gain a dominant status, if I played well, others will gang up on me, and I have to fight everyone. Its nice to find out if I can.

And as a last note, I never, ever use paratroops. They suck... well, I won't tell you what they suck, but they reeeeeallly suck it. All you need instead of paratroops, are bombers. like 100-800 bombers. They rock :D

McManus

EDIT: Oh yes, and thanks for the warm welcome :D
 
just play games in chieftain level, the game is at its most fair there
Nope. Regent is the "fair" level. On cheiftain, the AI gets a 400% build rate (meaning they need 40 shields to build a warrior). :eek:
 
Ooh, my bad. I always thought the chieftain was fair... oookkaay, well guess that just means I'm not as good as I thought :D

Ah well, you get the jist anyways..

McManus
 
Tomoyo said:
Nope. Regent is the "fair" level. On cheiftain, the AI gets a 400% build rate (meaning they need 40 shields to build a warrior). :eek:

Could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain it's only 200% (so 20 shields/warrior). 120, 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 40 for the rest in order of increasing difficulty (there are other advantages/disadvantages beyond that, BTW)
 
You know what? I just whiped out an entire civ with mere archers. They seem to be able to eliminate spearman in one turn. How is that for being absurd? On the other hand i have noticed that the game created units that are specialized to combat certain other units. for instance horses seem to work very good against archers and archers against spearman and spearman against horses. That makes sense to me. This could also explain the difficulties with upgraded units. But it sounds to me this is definite flaw in the game
 
punkbass2000 said:
Could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain it's only 200% (so 20 shields/warrior). 120, 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 40 for the rest in order of increasing difficulty (there are other advantages/disadvantages beyond that, BTW)
It probably is. I thought that Warlord was 150 though...
 
Interesting thread guys, i played Civ 1 when it came out, and civ 2, and played in the alpha centauri pbem tournaments when it was out..and eagerly awaited civ 3 coming out. When i found out the simplified combat in place i didnt buy the game..i know a few people who were similarily put off.

I dont buy the 'realism' justification at all, and feel other methods could be used for balance (simply making the computer better at advancing on tech for instance).
Personally i would have thought they could have had a 'simplified/complex' toggle for
combat.
 
A bunch of random people said:
The AI does not play fair on Regent
On regent the AI builds at 100% shields. Check all the numbers in the editor if you like. The extremes are Chieftain, 200%, Deity, 60%.

Oh, and just by the way, the skill levels shown by some players here are so insane that I've nearly gone insane from it. Look up the Succession Games forum, more specifically:

The One City Victory on Deity.
The multiple victories on Beyond Deity levels. (Up to 10% cost! The AI builds a tank for the price of a warrior!)

AI = teh suck. So it gets the RNG on its side sometimes. Don't whine, the RNG will swing back, and you will get two Great Leaders in a row at some point.


In my continuing quest to correct misapprehensions...
On the other hand i have noticed that the game created units that are specialized to combat certain other units. for instance horses seem to work very good against archers and archers against spearman and spearman against horses. That makes sense to me. This could also explain the difficulties with upgraded units. But it sounds to me this is definite flaw in the game
No, no and no. Horsemen are archers with another movement point. There is no bonus for using unit type A against unit type B.



Personally i would have thought they could have had a 'simplified/complex' toggle for combat.
No way. They'd have to be different, and then you'd get powergaming, and flaming, and accusation of cheating by switching combat mode... etc.
 
Erik Mesoy said:
No way. They'd have to be different, and then you'd get powergaming, and flaming, and accusation of cheating by switching combat mode... etc.

Well it would be decided upon and set at the start of the game
i guess, and unchangeable during the game.

Still, a step backwards imho. I couldnt care less for the pretty graphics ive seen for instance.

Gonna pick game up on the cheap though,
and see what it is like, roll on Civ 4.
 
Erik Mesoy said:
AI = teh suck. So it gets the RNG on its side sometimes. Don't whine, the RNG will swing back, and you will get two Great Leaders in a row at some point.

This is what I have a problem with. I don't want it to 'swing' at all. I'd rather my civ experience be dependent on my efforts, rather than an RNG that may or may not 'swing' my way.

"Lost a mech inf to a warrior? WHO CARES? You'll get your luck at some point!"

I don't want my luck at some point, I don't think I SHOULD be able to beat a mech inf with a warrior no matter HOW lucky I get. Its stupid, un-fun, and just creates angst on the party they losses.
 
There is more to be said:

I personnally don't care about bad luck being compensated later with good luck! What I don't want is to lose a critical battle only to bad luck.
It may be true that, on the long run, you will tend to have as much good than bad luck. But not all battles are equally important: in a recent game, I was at peace with everyone and clearly ahead by mid-second age. Suddenly, the Dutch declare war on me and next thing I know, 4 std galleys approach my capital. I pound them with 3 trebuchets, all miss; I attack them with five galleys (2 being elite, the rest veteran) and lose four, destroying only one. Then they unload their troops and take my capital before I can bring substancial reinforcements.
So, as you see, the RNG can have a huge impact on the game, if you happen to get unlucky during a critical battle. Of course you could stack 10 defenders in every city at all time. But if you do so, you're doomed, at least on higher levels, because it hampers your development.
On higher levels, the player has to rely on reasonable odds. Unfortunately, the RNG sometimes get highly unreasonable and can defeat the most reasonable strategy.

In Civ2, with careful gameplay and some experience, you could never lose even on Deity. That was clearly bad.
In Civ3, no matter how carefully you play, you are always vulnerable to a bout of bad luck. And that, too, is bad. A game should reward good gameplay. Civ3 doesn't always.
 
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