My first game on regent - is it worth continuing?

[Greyhawk1]

I'm playing England on a 60% archipelago map. There was a goody hut waitng outside my city range which popped when the borders expanded from culture.

The pop generated 3 barbarians and I had 1 warrior at that point. I wasted a few frantic turns moving my only worker around to avoid the barbs and my 1 warrior trying to kill 3 widely spaced barbs!

I managed it but I lost about 5 turns to the AI because of it

I lost the Colossus to the Portuguese and am building the GL at the moment but I very much doubt I will get it before the AI.

 

[Greyhawk1]

Oh yeah and I popped every goody hut on my island and got 2 with 25 gold and all the rest popped barbs No free techs.

Currently I have traded all the first techs so am about the same level as the AI so far.

 

[Snarkhunter]

I'm playing England on a 60% archipelago map. . . . I managed it but I lost about 5 turns to the AI because of it

I lost the Colossus to the Portuguese and am building the GL at the moment but I very much doubt I will get it before the AI.

I wouldn't think that losing 5 turns would make a regent game unwinnable in itself. I do want to know what you intend to do with the GL if you get it, as you are already at tech parity with the AI, per your second note. Are you going to shut down your research at that point?

Have you met all the AI's yet? That's your big edge on a 'pelago, being tech broker. So maybe that is your plan: get the GL, get free techs, sell/trade them to AI's that haven't met the tech leaders yet?

If you don't think you can get the GL & have invested a lot of shields already, is there any other wonder you can switch to, to avoid a waste?

Biggest thing, you won't get any specific advice without posting a save, I'm afraid. . . .

kk

 

[LowEndUserII]

If your still in Despotism it will probably, as the English, take 5-7 turns of Anarchy when you change Govts. plus the 5 you lost at startup will put you way behind in a first time Regent Game.
I get the GL about 1 in 10 trys before the AI does

Unless you love a challenge I would reload.

 

[Greyhawk1]

Well I got the GL about 1 turn before Carthage and am in the process of trying to contact as many civs as I can to take advantage of it.

Dont think I am doing too bad...

Trying to contain the celts at the moment as well.

This is C3C v1.22

 

[Spoonwood]

Probably quite a bit I could say about your game. You might play it out for fun, I feel sure plenty of people around here could win it, and I'd guess you could... but I don't really know the full extent of your skill level. From a quick look at your save I will say one thing that every experienced I I can think of agrees on. TRAIN MORE WORKERS! The usual recommendation comes as two workers per city for a non-industrious tribe such as the money-rich English, after you've founded at least some of your cities, if not most or all of them. You also definitely can also settle a lot more territory. And try NOT to use the governor to auto-manage cities. If you have happiness problems check out a helper program like MapStat or CivAssist 2. Anyways... I doubt you can really overdo workers in general. Of course there's more, but that's plenty there.

 

[Greyhawk1]

My skill level isnt great to be honest..but you dont get anywhere without at least trying. Trying Regent lets me see what I should be aiming for at Warlord to be consistent at a higher level. I admit I probably have a way to go. This game is way more complex than it appears at first.

I forgot I left my governor on mood management after the Anarchy following my change to Monarchy. He's off now but I'm still having issues with cash. I read England is supposed to be good at making money so I'm obviously off-base somewhere.

I'd guess that building marketplaces in every town is a bad idea and I always have issues with building workers. I probably have too many military units as well since I'm a builder and dont generally like to war. The Celts will declare on me though. No iron on my continent is probably a bonus since the Celts cant build Gallic Swordsmen (yet).

I'll continue for the hell of it. - thanks for the input!

 

[vmxa]

I can't look at the save as I am playing GR23 and loading that save is no fun, so I do not want to load yours and then load it back. Anyway England is Commercial so they get extra commerce.

You are in Monarchy, so you do not gain from the Republics extra commerce. If you do not like to war, why go to Monarchy?

In any event money issues are usually a function of too high maint and too high unit cost. Then you run into needing to spend on lux slider otherwise known as entertainment.

I would say if you look at F3 and see you are paying unit support, then you need to get more towns down and make more towns into cities to increase support. Either that or you have to reduce your military. You can do all of them.

You can also increase your income by having a road on all tiles that are worked. Using rivers as much as you can as they give 1 extra gold. Working unimproved tiles is the direct results of not having enough workers.

Look to see if you have spots that could have another town and drop a settler there. Infrastructure is a tricker issue. A good way is to see how much the building will cost in maint and if it will pay back the cost.

So a lib that is in a town that has 1 net beaker, is not a good investment, at least not for research. It may make sense in a strategic sense, that you have to evaluate.

Banks are the same, but gold instead of beakers. I want to get more than 1 net from the investment.

Markets are a different story as they may yield a happiness bonus and that has to be considered. If it is a town and will never be a city, I would not expect to put a market there.

If it is totally corrupt, I would probably not put one there either, but it is not 100% as I may do it under some conditions.

Temples are another tricky building with other implications. Just look close to see if you really need it and maybe you can sell it after border expansion,

Colosseum, just do not build them. Cathedrals are nearly the same. I don't build them, except in a few special cases. They cost too many shields and maint and I am not interested in culture as I will never match the AI anyway.

Courts are another tricky one. I won't say anything about them as I do not build them. I am a war guy and cannot bother with things like that. I can say that you want to at least be sure they pay for themselves. It is sort of a good thing, but too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing. The maint drags down your economy.

 

[timerover51]

I looked at your save.

First, you do not have near enough workers, and the ones that you do have need to be used better.

Second, your governors are managing your cities. You need to be managing them, as they are not the best in the world at doing so. In the save, why are you building the Forbidden Palace right next to a city were you are building a second palace, when it is right next to London, where you first palace is? Or are these pre-builds for something.

You have gold mines that you are not mining, because you do not have enough workers to mine them. In cities on the coast, my rule is Harbors first, before anything else. Added food from the water builds city faster. You have tiles that are being worked with no roads, and tiles that should be worked are not being worked because your governors, and not you are running things.

I understand that all players are continually hammered over the head that you need to expand as rapidly as possible, get those settlers out continuously, forget that most of your cities have ONE population and are taking forever to produce anything. Forget the settlers, you are spread out enough as it is. EVERY settler costs you two population, which means that all of those cities you built cost you the workers that you really need.

One city is building walls when it already has them courtesy of the Great Wall. A good example as to why you DO NOT LET THE COMPUTER RUN your cities. The computer is your enemy, not your friend.

You build marketplaces when you have either a lot of commerce that can be boosted or a lot of luxuries. You have neither in virtually all of your towns/cities.

When I build a city overseas, and I build a lot of them as I play on continents or archipelagos pretty much exclusively, I send a settler, two workers, and one to three military units, depending on where they are going. Settler founds the city, and the workers get to work improving the area immediately, first thing built is a harbor for trade route. One military unit starts to immediately scout the area, if I have not done so first. Normally, I settle overseas only after first thoroughly scouting the area. I do not like surprises. If the area I am settling needs it, I will send 4 workers, and then if possible, add one or two to the city to grow it faster after first improving the immediate area.

Last but not least, what victory condition are you trying for? That will provide guidance as to what you build in terms of improvements and units. What is your goal in the game?

 

[Spoonwood]

Cathedrals are nearly the same. I don't build them, except in a few special cases. They cost too many shields and maint and I am not interested in culture as I will never match the AI anyway.

He plays this on Regent, not Sid or Deity. Cathedrals can work well for builders. In fact, if you bulid enough of them you can eventually keep up in culture *even on Deity*. You can find some evidence of this from my "Deity Builder" game... the relevant screeshot you'll find here http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182991&d=1216086497 This surprised even me. In most cases I'd rather have a marketplace than a cathedral for sure, but cathedrals have their uses. Coloseuums less so... but anything that gives you happiness *can* have its uses in a long war in a Republic.

Regarding courthouses I could you some examples of how they can give you great benefits (such as my "Deity Builder" game). But, I'll just quote Charis

"What if you could build a factory in your best expansion cities in the ancient era? Would you build one? Hmmm, to expensive, not a good value? What if this 'factory' also increased revenue *100%*. Still not convinced? What if I throw in a "Solar Plant" for FREE?! Ready to buy? Wait!! There's more!! This magnficent factory- plant-economic center is yours for just... 80 shields!! Order TODAY and we'll throw in protection vs propaganda at no extra charge!

Such a ridiculous building doesn't exist you say? Think again! It's called a... Courhouse. Ok, not in every city, but in a large number of your cities, the courthouse (and police station) can work just as described -- let's look at an example. You're doing fairly well and have a small but growing empire. You now have a half-dozen or dozen cities which are 12-24 squares away from the capital. Let's look at one 16 squares away. You find about 66% corruption, losing 14 of 20 coins, and just over 50% waste, losing 8 of 14 possible shields. Add a courthouse and the loss becomes 7 of 20 coins and 5 of 14 shields. Your revenue increases from 6 to 13, over a 100% increase, and shield output from 6 to 9, a solid 50% increase. This is the equivalent of a marketplace, bank, and factory *combined*. And the shield increase will help you build each of those quicker! No solar plant? You're feeling cheated?? Go out to 18 or 19 squares away where you're losing 11 of 14 shields. The courthouse reduces loss to 7 of 14 shields, bringing output up from 3 to 7. That's huge! Roughly speaking, the courhouse seems to reduce corruption (revenue) by about 50%, and the waste (shields) by 33%. A police station on top of that cuts corruption by about 67% and waste by 50%.

So the question becomes not, "Should I build a Courthouse?" but rather "Should I ever NOT build it??!" That answer too is yes, sometimes:
i) If your commerce loss is 2 coins, building a courthouse pays for itself. So even with low corruption, it's not 'wrong' to build. But you may have higher priorities. This very low corruption will only occur within a distance of about 2 city radii.
ii) If the city is "desolate", building a courthouse or police will have no effect. In fact, it will COST you by adding to the maintenace cost with zero benefit. The problem is, you can't tell before you build it if the city is desolate or just 'corrupt' (able to be helped by a courthouse, vs hopeless) Again, I hope to have more numbers later, but for now suggest that you count the distance to your palace or forbiden city (whichever is closer). On a standard map it it's 20+ away, it would have to be a size 12 city and have a police station as well as courthouse to see any benefit whatsoever. Above 25 squares, forget it.

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that until playing succession games and seeing others build courthouses, I was not a big fan. Even then, after some gentle prodding by Sirian (Thanks!), it took a while for the 'lightbulb' to come on. When I did the math, that lightbulb became a shining beacon of radiant energy." http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/mmguide.html

I understand that all players are continually hammered over the head that you need to expand as rapidly as possible, get those settlers out continuously, forget that most of your cities have ONE population and are taking forever to produce anything.

If you played the epic game on or above Demi-God I doubt you would view this as "hammering over the head". Please note that timerover51 usually mods the game significantly, so his advice has less *relevance* than it might seem in some spots.

 

[vmxa]

Doug.Lefelhocz I said that I would not say anything about courts. I did not tell him to do this or that, only what I do. I don't use them as I don't need them. I have no interest in being equal to them in culture, I am going to kill them.

The point of view was stated so it would be clear that I am not a builder and do not care for those types of games. They were fun for the first few games, but got very boring.

160 shields is 2 knights with a start on a third one. I get get more done with those
knights than with a cath. I would not build them at chief and I sure won't build them at Sid. I do not need them in either case.

I am not going for WLTKD, beside you need a temple and I won't have many of them either. Now you need even more than 160 shields to build a temple and a cath.

These structures come at a time when you have much to do, if you want to come along much later and toss one up when you can do it much faster, be my guest.

 

[Greyhawk1]

Thanks for the advice. The governor was on while I was in anarchy as I said so he's off now. Thanks for pointing out the walls...didnt see that one. I'm building FP as a pre-build for Knights Templar (well that was the plan at any rate). Was hoping the units from that would keep the Celts in check.

I'm a builder so I usually go for space race. I wont win cultural since I got off to a slow start.

Its difficult to pump out settlers while you are also trying to pump out workers in cities this low-tech. Seems to take forever to build anything.

I've continued on for a bit and hooked up the dyes but Carthage looks to be on the biggest island on their own and already well established on it.

Once again thanks for the advice (I need it!).

 

[LowEndUserII]

Thanks for the advice. The governor was on while I was in anarchy as I said so he's off now. Thanks for pointing out the walls...didnt see that one. I'm building FP as a pre-build for Knights Templar (well that was the plan at any rate). Was hoping the units from that would keep the Celts in check.

I'm a builder so I usually go for space race. I wont win cultural since I got off to a slow start.

Its difficult to pump out settlers while you are also trying to pump out workers in cities this low-tech. Seems to take forever to build anything.

I've continued on for a bit and hooked up the dyes but Carthage looks to be on the biggest island on their own and already well established on it.

Once again thanks for the advice (I need it!).

I`m unable to download your save until tomorrow so:

What date are you at and have you met all the other Civs on your Island and if so who are they ?

 

[Optional]

There was a goody hut waitng outside my city range which popped when the borders expanded from culture.The pop generated 3 barbarians and I had 1 warrior at that point.

Sorry for a bit of a bump, but if you pop a hut with your worker, before you have any military units, then you will never get Barbarians. That would have been the thing to do here.

 

[Spoonwood]

It takes you so long to build things, because you don't have all that many mines from workers mining.

 

[timerover51]

If you played the epic game on or above Demi-God I doubt you would view this as "hammering over the head". Please note that timerover51 usually mods the game significantly, so his advice has less *relevance* than it might seem in some spots.

He is playing on Regent, not Demi-God and above. And my comments were aimed at the save, and dealing with the fact that he has roughly half his cities with one population and virtually no production. If instead of producing settlers he had produced workers, he would have a smaller number of much more productive cities, and be taking full advantage of the commercial bonus of the English. Eight fewer cities would give him the 16 workers that he really needs to get things going in his core area. He has one city with three gold mines in its boundaries that he cannot do anything with because he has no workers.

Even with all of my mods, I still need at least 2 workers per city to maximize their production. When founding a city, besides trying to already have 2 workers there developing the area, I manage the city initially for maximum food production to get citizens as quickly as possible to increase the long-term production.

My objective,in either the standard or one of my mods, with every city that I settle is to get it to 6 citizens as quickly as possible, and then manage it to maximize whatever I need at the time, either shield, food, or coin.

 

[timerover51]

A few more comments.

1. The save has you on turn 159 out of 540, roughly a third of the way through your game, but there is a large amount of area that is unexplored. You are short resources. You need to do more exploring. I see one warrior and one galley out. Since it is an archipelago map, you need to get a couple of more gallleys out, which is difficult with your low production. It looks like you are on a standard size map. I have been playing around with generating maps and counting resources on them. You should have around 8 to 10 of each strategic resource on the map. There is a lot of iron and horses missing.

2. The victory screen shows you with 5 rivals, you know three of them. You need to find the other two, who they are and where they are. Also, with the visible map so stingy with strategic resources, that means that they are concentrated somewhere. Either there are some loaded islands, or someone that you have not contacted yet is very well set.

3. Out of your 24 cities, 9 are not connected to the others. You need to get them connected up, so that they contribute more to your production.

Would you be interested in me playing it a few turns and then posting the save to you? Warning, I march to a different drummer that most of the players on the forum, so my style is going to run counter to much of the advice you will get. Against that, I prefer winning with the space race. So it is 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Cheers.

 

[Bucephalus]

Sorry for a bit of a bump, but if you pop a hut with your worker, before you have any military units, then you will never get Barbarians. That would have been the thing to do here.

Wasted worker moves are a crime, particularly in the early stages of a game; the simplest way to achieve the same result is to just not build military in the first ten turns.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Building settlers is only a bad thing if the wrong towns are used. Even 1 food bonus and a granary can make a town a settler factory, albeit a slower one. I think I'd rather have 1 or 2 towns build 20 settlers than 20 towns each building 1. I'd say play this game out, learn from the mistakes pointed out, and start a new one. Play slower, taking the lessons learned to heart, and improve your game. I would recommend downloading the current COTM and play it out after reading the spoiler threads from the competitors, there is so much to be learned from reading other peoples' ideas and mistakes. It is a Regent level with no noticeable modifications, so could be a goldmine of learning.

 

[LowEndUserII]

Building settlers is only a bad thing if the wrong towns are used. Even 1 food bonus and a granary can make a town a settler factory, albeit a slower one. I think I'd rather have 1 or 2 towns build 20 settlers than 20 towns each building 1. I'd say play this game out, learn from the mistakes pointed out, and start a new one. Play slower, taking the lessons learned to heart, and improve your game. I would recommend downloading the current COTM and play it out after reading the spoiler threads from the competitors, there is so much to be learned from reading other peoples' ideas and mistakes. It is a Regent level with no noticeable modifications, so could be a goldmine of learning.

I would agree with all of that. Especially playing along on the COTM that`s just started.

I opened the save and suggest in the Prefs Screen you check: Always Renegotiate Deals & Ask For Build Orders.

Also IMHO Civ3 is at the core of it`s design a Wargame, and at some point one or more of the AI Civs will DOD you and a serious attack can only come by land. I wouldn`t want to defend two borders, so I would cripple or eliminate the Celts, like right now, since they are way too close to your core cities and it doesn`t look like they have Horseman.