my little new mod: announcement and the "second UU" idea

[Diviner]

hi, this is the THIRD UPDATE to the thread-title post!

i plan to create a mod, sorry wrong words, i have already progressed in it quite far with your help my goal is to create a wider scale of civilization improvements, tech, unit etc than the epic game, to make civ3 more historically in many ways.

an important point would be the add a "second-UU" list to differentiate gameplay impacts of playing different civilizations and to create culturally more civ-centric scenarios.

i studied pretty much WIKI and the unit-graphic section, but as before said, still have some "weak points" on my list. the ???-marked civs should welcome your suggestions. my comments are also around, hope you could help.

now the list, first coloumn: civ, second: UU-1, third UU-2; i also mark in () which unit will they replace:

rome --- legionary (swordsman) --- ???
egypt --- war chariot (chariot) --- horus knight (medieval infantry)
greece --- hoplite (spearmen) --- stradiot (hussar)
babylon --- bowman (archer) --- ???
germany --- panzer (medium tank) --- teutonic knight (knight)
russia --- cossack (cavalry) --- T-34/85 (medium tank)
china --- rider (knight) --- ???
america --- F-15 (jet fighter) --- minuteman (rifleman)
japan --- samurai (medieval infantry) --- ZERO (fighter)
france --- musketeer (musketman) --- ???
india ---- mauryan elephant (elephant rider) --- ???
persia --- immortal (swordsman) --- clibanarius (cataphract)
aztecs --- jaguar warrior (warrior) --- eagle warrior (pikeman)
zulu --- impi (spearman) --- zebra raider (knight)
iroquois --- mounted warrior (horseman) --- ???
england --- redcoat (rifleman) --- longbowmen (skirmisher)

mongols --- keshik (horse archer) --- paddleship (galleass)
spain --- conquistador (explorer) --- jinetes (horse archer)
scandinavia --- berserk (medieval infantry) --- longship (cog, should it be galley then or galleass?)
ottomans --- sipahi (hussar) --- janissary (musketman)
celts --- gallic swordsman (swordsman) --- ???
arabia --- ansar warrior (cataphract) --- war camel (heavy camel)
carthage --- numidian mercenary (spearman) --- war elephant (elephant rider)
korea --- hwacha (cannon) --- turtle ship (man-o-war)

sumeria --- onager cart (chariot) --- assegai infantry (spearmen)
hittites --- three-man chariot (chariot) --- ???
netherlands --- swiss mercenary (pikeman) --- fluyt (galleon)
portugal --- carrack (caravel) --- ???
byzantines --- dromon (galley) --- varangian guard (medieval infantry)
inca --- chasqui scout (scout) --- inti champion (pikeman)
maya --- javelin thrower (archer)--- great acáli (galley)

enkidu warrior is now the primitve barbarian
the number of question marks are rapidly decreasing!

so far, these unit-lines have been planned, i bolded the breakpoints of the C3C unit line, but not all new units at all:

defensive infantry unit line:
spearman --> pikeman --> musketman --> rifleman --> infantry --> modern infantry
offensive infantry unit line:
warrior --> swordsman --> medieval infantry --> grenader --> guerilla (looking for alt-name) --> TOW infantry --> AGS
troop --> laser infantry
ranged unit line:
archer (stone age) --> siege archer --> skirmisher (medieval)
light cavalry unit line:
horseman --> horse archer --> hussar --> air cavalry --> attack chopper
heavy cavalry unit line:
cataphract --> knight --> cuirassier --> modern cavalry
amphibious unit line:
invader --> sea militia --> marine --> commando marine
transport ship line:
galley --> cog --> caravel --> galleon --> transport --> troop transport (names still undecided)
heavy military ship line:
trireme --> galleass (undecided) --> man-o-war --> ship-of-the-line --> dreadnaught --> battleship --> superbattleship
light military ship line:
frigate --> ironclad --> destroyer --> missile destroyer
artillery line:
siege crossbow --> catapult --> trebuchet --> cannon --> artillery --> assault gun (WW2) --> radar artillery --> HEL impactor (near-future)
medium tank line:
medium tank --> modern armor --> penetrator (near-future)
heavy tank line:
tank destroyer --> warjammer (near-future)
alternate armored unit line:
light tank --> mechanized infantry
AA line:
flak --> mobile SAM --> ATL Squad (near-future)
scout unit line:
scout --> explorer --> adventurer (i dislike modern-age explorer idea)
air fighter unit line:
biplane --> figther --> jet fighter --> ???
air bomber unit line:
bomber --> strategic bomber --> ???
air transport unit line:
carrier --> super carrier
alternate mounted units:
elephant rider --> elephant archer --> elephant cavalry (with firearm)
camel rider --> heavy camel --> desert raider (rifle-armed)
hidden nationality units:
*some medieval assasin* --> guerilla --> specops --> shadow commando


thats for now, others will come later.
thanks for the contributors!

any ideas / suggestions / criticism is welcome! just keep talking guys! good night (or day)

 

[utahjazz7]

I'd try a search to find those second UU recommendations you're after. There are plenty of threads over the years discussing multiple UU's for civs.

 

[T.A JONES]

Hi its good to hear your working on new Xpak style mod. Have you seen the Balancer Reloaded? Its the ideal model for you to follow I believe.

You talk about expanding unit lines like horse units? for example? I would defenantly use this model as guidence. It contains almost 900 units with the impr and wonders, techs all fleshed out like you discribe.

Oh sorry, heres the link

 

[Diviner]

oh, thank you Jones, really big help. these dudes did awesome graphic stuffs too!
i used only the RaR mod's flavor tanks and wyrmshadow's magnificient ww2 unit collection formerly, but i will think about these too!

oh and some more secondary-uus

byzantines - varangian guards! the fiercest available mercenaries in eastern europe from 800 - 1000!
koreans - turtle ship! (those were really strong ships, help korea in the japanese invasion of the 1590s)
romans - italian rifleman (that stunning roman officer made by wyrmshadowwill be converted), but i am not sure about this one would be historically accurate. maybe i find some special italian force in wiki, because i really want this uu.

i keep on searching, ideas / criticism still awaited and welcome

also i updated the thread-title post!

 

[Mirc]

Look for other mods if you need UU ideas, many mods have 2 UUs or even more.

 

[T.A JONES]

oh, thank you Jones, really big help. these dudes did awesome graphic stuffs too!
i used only the RaR mod's flavor tanks and wyrmshadow's magnificient ww2 unit collection formerly, but i will think about these too!

oh and some more secondary-uus

byzantines - varangian guards! the fiercest available mercenaries in eastern europe from 800 - 1000!
koreans - turtle ship! (those were really strong ships, help korea in the japanese invasion of the 1590s)
romans - italian rifleman (that stunning roman officer made by wyrmshadowwill be converted), but i am not sure about this one would be historically accurate. maybe i find some special italian force in wiki, because i really want this uu.

i keep on searching, ideas / criticism still awaited and welcome

also i updated the thread-title post!

Oh good glad your happy dude. So you know, Balancer's creator was a general contractor just like you. All the graphics were subcontracted from same great artists like wyrmshadow, Ripptide and others who we owe for the great roster made to date.

Yes there are awesome renderings in that package. My favorite was the Shurman Firefly and the Avero Aero. LIke MIrc said be sure to look around. Farhorizons is also a great outline to aspire on improving., a lot of work though. Goodluck n thanks again for your invlolment man

 

[mythmonster2]

America, maybe the minuteman. It could replace the grenader, I guess, and have one extra movement, 1 less defense, and cost less.
Celts: The Highlander! Maybe it could either replace the musketman or the mideival infantry. (Obviously it wouldn't be the same unit for both units)
Dutch: Maybe the cog could replace the galleon with a few extra movement points
Japan- Nipponese Infantry as the replacement for modern infantry. Maybe another name.
Iroqouis- Tomohawk Warrior to replace either swordsman or archer.

All I can think about!

 

[cubsfan6506]

America's got to have the seals. They wer'e so great. Ho

 

[Steph]

The seals is not a good idea, as they are not representative of the US army.
They may be good, but they are few.

You can have a look at my mod for ideas. I have a few UU for each civ. Around 150.

 

[cubsfan6506]

I can see it now the new mod. The 150 UU mod.

 

[Steph]

I can see it now the new mod. The 150 UU mod.

Actually, as there are 150 UU per civ and 20civ, that's more the 3000 UU mod

 

[Yoda Power]

You don't have 31 civs?

 

[Steph]

No, in the new version of my mod I have only 20.

 

[Taras Bulba]

Inside the Spoiler are some Unit Suggestions I made, just a few

Spoiler :

Rome --------- Legionary ------- Gladiator (comes at Republic, but replaces MI)
Greece -------- Hoplite ---------- Trireme (replaces Galley)
Russia -------- Cossack ---------- T-34 (replaces Tank)
America ------- F-15 ------------ Minute Man (replaces Rifleman)
Japan --------- Samurai --------- Kamikaze (replaces Fighter)
India ---------- War Elephant --- Fast Worker (replaces worker(ancient&industrious))
Scandinavia -- Berserk ---------- Longship (replaces Galley)
Ottomans ---- Sipahi ------------ Janissary (replaces Musketman)
Sumeria ------ Enkidu ----------- Sumerian Spearman (replaces Spearman)

Gladiator-4/4/1~40 shields-Requires Iron
T-34-16-10-3~110 shields-Requires Oil & Rubber-Blitz (from the T-34 in the game)
Minute Man-4/6/1~60 shields-No resources OR 4/6/2-80 shields (use current Rifleman, and Voltiguer (in Napoleanic Scenario) as Rifleman for everyone else)
Kamikaze-2/4 3/4/1~80 shields-Oil-Cruise Missle (Kamikaze from game(give it the Zero's bombard animation))
Fast Worker-0/0/2~15 shields-No resources
Longship-1/2/3 3~40 shields-No resources-Upgrades to Galleon (Longship from game)
Janissary-3/5/1~70 shields-Saltpeter (Janissary from Napoleanic Scenario)
Sumerian Spearman-2/2/1~20 shields-No resources

I think infantry should upgrade to Modern Infantry, and Modern Infantry (13/12/1~110 shields) Upgrade to nothing (and Modern Infantry are draftable, not Mech Infantry)

-Flak should not upgrade
-TOW Infantry bombardment range of 2 (any bombardment str and RoF)
-Mobile SAM bombardment range of 3 (any bombardment str and RoF)
-Man-O-War bombardment range of 2
-Frigate bombardment range of 2
-Ironclad bombardment range of 2
-cannon bombardment range of 2
-artillery bombardment range of 3
-Cruiser bombardment range of 2
-Battleship bombardment range of 3
-Destroyers bombardmentrange of 2
-AEGIS Cruiser should be able to transport 2 Tactical Missiles (people just shouldn't put Nukes on there, an unwritten rule)
-Legionaries upgrade to Guerilla's, and can build roads and fortresses (RoR scenario)
-Explorer is not 2/1/2, and not 0/0/2, but costs 40 shields
-Scouts no longer takes move costs of Hills or Forests
-Chariot upgrades to Knight
-Horsemen upgrade to Cavalry
-Radar Artillery have 4 bombard range
-Cruise Missiles have 10 bombard range, and are a Tactical Missile
-Tactical Nukes have 10 bombard range
-Transport have 8 transport capacity
-Carriers have 8 transport capacity, and 2 attack
-Submarines get 10 attack
-Jaguar Warriors ignore jungle movecosts and cost 20 shields
-Hoplites have an attack of 2, and costs 30 shields
-Mounted Warriors upgrade to Cavalry
-War Elephants upgrade to Modern Cavalry
-Cossacks now take the place of Modern Cavalry (everything the same, but w/ blitz)
-Privateers have bombard range of 1, and RoF of 1 (any bombard str)
-Sipahi do not upgrade to Modern Cavalry
-Hwach'a's now have RoF of 2, but bombardment of 6
-Swiss Mercenaries do not upgrade
-Catapults upgrade to cannons, not trebuchets
-Javelin Thrower has leathal defensive bombardment (RoF of 1, str of 1)
-Dromons upgrade to Frigates
-Cruisers do not upgrade
-Mech Infantry should have blitz

those are just a few things that I think make the game a tad more historically acurate (most of those bombard ranges are to even things out more)

 

[Quinzy]

Berzerk replace medieval infantry instead too would be nice. And maybe replace the samurai animations with the mounted one from the extra's pack.

 

[Diviner]

thats long post taras, really appreciated

meanwhile i did some (well, a lot of) research and figured out many things as you do, such as minutman uu and sumer spear uu. about the mechanized infantry, i think of them as a light-tank upgrade now and yeah, they are not draftable; also infantry upgrades to modern one as you suggested.

about the nice bombardment and spec-ability things and the suggested stats, i haven't analyzed everything so deeply, first i have to clarify the unit-lines at least for myself

basically you would decline some upgrades to make it more historically accurate at least for the UU-s, am i correct? now, i can see it could cause some AI-problems so i don't know whether i implement these, but of course your ton of advice is very-very appreciated. thanks!

quinzy: i have always wanted to make berserks a special MI-s. so it is now as you suggested, on the other hand i don't think mounted samurais will be in this mod, instead i plan to make them flavor-MI-s too. what do ya think?

so for now, the next UU-s are in plan-state:
america - minuteman (as taras advised, flavor rifleman)
japan - zero (flavor fighter)
spain - jinetes (i am thinking about to make them flavor-horse archer - they arelight cavalry anyways - or flavor-knight)
netherlands - fluyt (flavor galleon)
sumeria - sumerian spear (instead of normal spear, but looking for other name "sumerian sumerian spearmen" is a little weird and it will be descripted in the game this way i guess)

overall, i must say the whole thing is nicely progressing

second update on the thread-title post and the unit-lists

 

[Taras Bulba]

thats long post taras, really appreciated
basically you would decline some upgrades to make it more historically accurate at least for the UU-s, am i correct? now, i can see it could cause some AI-problems so i don't know whether i implement these, but of course your ton of advice is very-very appreciated. thanks!

No problemo... i love lookin' up this kinda stuff... i don't like making mods/scenarios because my computer is very slow

i declined a few upgrades, but most of that post was devoted to things like increasing bombardment range... probably the biggest one is of the cruise missile, because it SHOULD have a huge bombard range, that is what it was made for... but i do see where you are coming from with the lowered AI... which so i hear, could be counted by lowering corruption

america - minuteman (as taras advised, flavor rifleman)

well... i knew of them a long while ago, and i might have suggested them first, but i think the credit belongs to mythmonster2, as he stated it before I did

America, maybe the minuteman.

PS-i was trying to get a 2nd UU for all 31 of the civs, which i might come back later to suggest, but i couldn't find Unique units for them

 

[Steph]

BTW, for France I would remove the musketeer, and use a medieval knight (BeBro's graphics for instance), and a Napoleonic unit, like the Imperial Guard to replace the grenadier.

And I think the Man-o-War should not upgrade to Frigate.

 

[Diviner]

#TARAS:

well you are not the only one then, who are greatly disstatisfied with some bombardment action. naval bombardment (not naval-to-land) is weird and of course the cruise missile...

there is one flaw. for test purposes i created a 100 bombard strength unit, but that damaged only 4 HP on a stone-age barbarian warrior and my experience is that it can NEVER damage more. well "only 4 " is enough to destroy a veteran unit, but far from represent the cruise missile's power imo.


#STEPH:

well i generally struggled with this sail vessel issue, the recent unitline is just a give-to-take

man-o-war should be a warship in the early sail period, not only english ship, but common european ship in the 15th - 16th century, according to WIKI.

frigates, well i put them into the military ship line, like firaxis did, but really frigates were never concerned in big ship to ship line-fights, but raids and supporting ship-of-the-lines. so a sensible solution would be to have man-o-war --> ship-of-the-line upgrade, but then what should represent the English great impact on naval history in that time? it is clear ship-of-the-line is not a really good UU for them, but is there better?

frigates on the other hand could replace corvettes and fill a historically more accurate role as light military ship, also they could upgrade to ironclads, so that destroyer line would be adopted to the light military ships.

ship-of-the-line could upgrade to dreadnaught then to battleship and the heavy military ship line. well this is clear.

the only thing that prevents me from doing these changes is the lack of english (truely english) naval uu in the sail-period. if i could get over this.

and steph what's your problem with musketeer? i like to keep that unit, instead rename the musketman (well both of them at one time really makes no sense) to arqebusier. this would be historically more accurate as musket came later to replace arquebus. musketeer could be then a special grenadier or arquebusier for french. the other french UU i think of is a mirage fighter.

 

[BadKharma]

America's got to have the seals. They wer'e so great. Ho

Considering that each individual infantry type unit is supposed to represent a division sized unit how would you represent a unit that normally deploys in a platoon sized unit?