My take on why Civ 6 will be a bad game, a 3 pt. podcast

[Zyrica]

How do you measure player activity?

I know its hard to measure, but to me its much more interesting what goes on inside the head of the player rather then whats actually on the screen. I don't mind doing more "boring" tasks as long as I got other things to think about. Even if I might only spend 10 seconds of my time in policy screen changing my policy, I'll probably have spent a lot of time before that to actually make the decision.

In my world there needs to be a balance between the complexity of the tasks. Would it really be a fun game if everything you did was making the "interesting" decisions? While all the "mundane" tasks where automated. Wouldn't interesting just become the standard and no longer feel interesting?

Also I think the devil is in the details of the simple tasks, even if they seam boring and like no-brainers they still have some impact and together they add up to big impact in the long run.

 

[Atlas627]

I did definitely not say that is the only reason, but is a part of a larger profile, it is clickbait for attention in fact. What I wanted to do is taunt by insults in order to get the real motivation behind it. Primitive false accusations are a great way to achieve that.

So...you're trolling him?

What irks me about the whole thing is that it is a personal attack on developers without doing anything for the game, combined with a highly subjective partial comparison of the two games, leaving the phrase 'in my view' or 'I feel' completely out. Also, he himself stated that he says the same things the same way over again, it was not me.

Yeah, I hated it too. I don't think that means you should troll him...

I agree that games need criticism but trying to resurrect a dead argument with no game even released in the same bitter way as the old one is anything but constructive. Also there are tons of people who are still stuck in the civ5 release days and simply refuse to acknowledge how much the game has evolved since then. Many of them did not stop and put the game aside, instead continued spewing bile about what a mess it is. I am thankful because their opinion contributed to said evolution. Now on the other hand development admitted they made a mistake with civ5 release, and its small number of features, it would be fair play to at least wait to see what the release looks like before starting the doom and gloom campaign.

I agree with this.

I am a developer, not for civ6 obviously, it discourages me to see that players can be so short sighted, narrow minded and ignorant. One day we stand up from the desk and you will be left with nothing to complain about.

I agree with this as well. At the same time, they pay your salary. And part of what makes developing fun is that you are creating something FOR someone. To completely disregard their opinion to the point of trolling them seems counterproductive, if not merely rude.

 

[SpoonyGundam]

I honestly didn't take that into consideration. :-/

Some other things you didn't take into consideration:

• This is an old, unoptimized build being played on hardware provided at the event, rather than his own likely more powerful machine.
• This was Prince difficulty, with no option to change it yet, so he could afford to play fast and loose.
• This was a timed event, so he wanted to play fast and loose just to see as much content as he could.
• The commentary was recorded much later, so segments you perceive as being for YT Commentary just weren't for that at all. If there was a pause he was thinking or chatting with someone or etc, but he doesn't necessarily remember what he was thinking/doing while playing at a specific point.

This is all stuff he explains at some point in the video series. The videos are really not indicative of the state of the final game.

 

[Gorbles]

Nope. My best guess is that 2K has too many mouths to feed. Probably nothing to do with the actual developers of the game. And yes, when Blizzard slaps a $60 price tag on something, at least I don't feel they went cheap on me. I might disagree with the game mechanics, or be angry at a botched launch, but their games are polished to the bone.

You think that 2K has too many mouths to feed, but Activision-Blizzard . . . don't?

Blizzard's games have a regularly-unique development cycle. No other company can afford to take nine years developing a game; most companies would go bankrupt in that time.

Giving Blizzard a pass on their polish alone is . . . well, rather foolish, in my opinion. I'd rather have a game full of mechanics that I enjoy that rather bland content polished to godhood and back.

(caveat: I actually enjoy Overwatch. However, I did not enjoy SC2, and let's not get me started on Warcraft lore and WoW )

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Some other things you didn't take into consideration:

• This is an old, unoptimized build being played on hardware provided at the event, rather than his own likely more powerful machine.
• This was Prince difficulty, with no option to change it yet, so he could afford to play fast and loose.
• This was a timed event, so he wanted to play fast and loose just to see as much content as he could.
• The commentary was recorded much later, so segments you perceive as being for YT Commentary just weren't for that at all. If there was a pause he was thinking or chatting with someone or etc, but he doesn't necessarily remember what he was thinking/doing while playing at a specific point.

This is all stuff he explains at some point in the video series. The videos are really not indicative of the state of the final game.

Top post, and welcome to the forum!

I like the idea of this thread, if you plan on doing it with more videos we could get some kind of useful info from it with terms and conditions applied.

 

[WiseGreen]

Some other things you didn't take into consideration:

• This is an old, unoptimized build being played on hardware provided at the event, rather than his own likely more powerful machine.
• This was Prince difficulty, with no option to change it yet, so he could afford to play fast and loose.
• This was a timed event, so he wanted to play fast and loose just to see as much content as he could.
• The commentary was recorded much later, so segments you perceive as being for YT Commentary just weren't for that at all. If there was a pause he was thinking or chatting with someone or etc, but he doesn't necessarily remember what he was thinking/doing while playing at a specific point.

This is all stuff he explains at some point in the video series. The videos are really not indicative of the state of the final game.

It's not only non-optimized, this build is probably still full of debugging scripts that take a lot of memory to process, as the game is not finished yet. We'll know better about AI turn times when people start previewing the finished version.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It's not only non-optimized, this build is probably still full of debugging scripts that take a lot of memory to process, as the game is not finished yet. We'll know better about AI turn times when people start previewing the finished version.

Not to mention streaming software itself.

 

[Browd]

You're right, I should probably ask the mod to merge this thread with the other one.

Moderator Action: Threads merged.

 

[Nikae]

Atlas, yes, I am hospitalized, therefore I had time to read some forums. Normally I do not mind negative attitude and downright foaming stupidity, like the kind youtube comments usually present, but trying to disguise an old, outdated, personal grudge as educated opinion is a bit over the top. His style makes me ignore large parts of it, I also said that the message might as well have been worthwhile otherwise.

Whether or not I should troll someone for it is a question of politeness, same point he could have considered before burping it up.

They do not pay me salary, I have a normal day job. People would be surprised how many developers do this for partial or no wage.

 

[ProMeTheus112]

Not to mention streaming software itself.

But you don't necessarily run streaming software on the machine that's running the streamed video. You can split the signal to a machine that streams it using some cables at no performance cost. And I think if they care about showing good performance they likely do that, that'd be why there are extra PCs in the room I'm thinking.

 

[Atlas627]

Atlas, yes, I am hospitalized, therefore I had time to read some forums. Normally I do not mind negative attitude and downright foaming stupidity, like the kind youtube comments usually present, but trying to disguise an old, outdated, personal grudge as educated opinion is a bit over the top. His style makes me ignore large parts of it, I also said that the message might as well have been worthwhile otherwise.

Whether or not I should troll someone for it is a question of politeness, same point he could have considered before burping it up.

They do not pay me salary, I have a normal day job. People would be surprised how many developers do this for partial or no wage.

Hope you'll be well soon!

I agree completely that the argument was inconsequential and emotional.

I agree that it was impolite to waste our time by presenting his argument behind a time-sink.

These do not change the fact that it is possible to be a better person, and not purposely troll him.

If you don't get paid, then why do you make games? Because its fun? If its fun (which I hope it is), then why is it fun? Do you not care about your audience at all?

You don't have to care about them. You can be creating games because you enjoy the feeling of creation. You can choose to be selective about your audience, choosing only people that you like. This is fine.

But your claim that "some day all the developers will walk out" isn't a very good ultimatum. Many developers DO like making games *for* their players. Then, its a 2-way street, and opinions from all audience members (yes, even the emotional or stupid ones) matter. Emotions matter.

 

[Nikae]

I never said I am a better person

I make games, mostly help the main developers who are in fact paid, develop side projects, and iron out small errors, for the sake of creation. I love round, whole, detailed, clean and well-working things. One example I feel safe and proud to mention is the best game I took part creating, is Painkiller. Yes, it was finished 12 years ago, and is a story-based simple shooter, but hell we loved making it. I helped mostly with level design, so that maps on one hand become neither too closed and tunnel-like or too open or too much of a maze, and on the other hand the visual and audio design makes a solid and unified impression.

I will not display false modesty, the game was well received, and it felt really good, but I never really cared for 95% of the players' opinion because it is exactly like this was. Major critics are a good source because they get paid for publication, thus they generally reflect public opinion in a detailed, clean and comprehensible manner. Forums, youtube, emails for me always were a waste of time, at least at start. When the game is a year or so old, excitement hunters and boredom killers are off bashing the next game, and it's mostly the dedicated players left, then it becomes worthwhile to check forums. Before and right after release it is pointless, the internet is full of self-appointed voices of truth who are usually ignorant, overly excited, incomprehensible and so on. Youtube is the main sewage drain, the sheer amout of trash it contains about civ6 is stunning, videos and comments alike.

Really good developers mostly care for the audience but are mature enough to recognize who is better off ignored. One of my very good friends regardless decided to leave the industry because of the acid rain we were presented with, and he is a very creative and highly active guy. He found an other way so that he could work for an audience and remain in the creative field, without having to put up with these kind of posts. So all in an there are tons of audience oriented creative careers, and too many of those guys leaving is going to hurt. I do not state it is going to happen soon, the field is thriving, I am still alarmed by the possibility..

 

[stealth_nsk]

But you don't necessarily run streaming software on the machine that's running the streamed video. You can split the signal to a machine that streams it using some cables at no performance cost. And I think if they care about showing good performance they likely do that, that'd be why there are extra PCs in the room I'm thinking.

Yes, you could setup it effectively. You could even do this with camera stream by attaching the camera to another computer. But usually people don't care with this and just do it on one computer - take video stream from camera, lay it on top of the vide from the game and stream outside.

 

[Atlas627]

I never said I am a better person

I make games, mostly help the main developers who are in fact paid, develop side projects, and iron out small errors, for the sake of creation. I love round, whole, detailed, clean and well-working things. One example I feel safe and proud to mention is the best game I took part creating, is Painkiller. Yes, it was finished 12 years ago, and is a story-based simple shooter, but hell we loved making it. I helped mostly with level design, so that maps on one hand become neither too closed and tunnel-like or too open or too much of a maze, and on the other hand the visual and audio design makes a solid and unified impression.

I will not display false modesty, the game was well received, and it felt really good, but I never really cared for 95% of the players' opinion because it is exactly like this was. Major critics are a good source because they get paid for publication, thus they generally reflect public opinion in a detailed, clean and comprehensible manner. Forums, youtube, emails for me always were a waste of time, at least at start. When the game is a year or so old, excitement hunters and boredom killers are off bashing the next game, and it's mostly the dedicated players left, then it becomes worthwhile to check forums. Before and right after release it is pointless, the internet is full of self-appointed voices of truth who are usually ignorant, overly excited, incomprehensible and so on. Youtube is the main sewage drain, the sheer amout of trash it contains about civ6 is stunning, videos and comments alike.

Really good developers mostly care for the audience but are mature enough to recognize who is better off ignored. One of my very good friends regardless decided to leave the industry because of the acid rain we were presented with, and he is a very creative and highly active guy. He found an other way so that he could work for an audience and remain in the creative field, without having to put up with these kind of posts. So all in an there are tons of audience oriented creative careers, and too many of those guys leaving is going to hurt. I do not state it is going to happen soon, the field is thriving, I am still alarmed by the possibility..

Perhaps I am naive in assuming that people are good enough to want to be good people!

Good for you! Do what you like, so long as it doesn't hurt others.

And yes, I absolutely agree that some people should be ignored for your own sanity. And you can choose to not care about those people's opinions.

As for all of the people that should be ignored, everyone will draw a different line. No method is more right than any other. Some developers will care about everyone's opinion, even one's that aren't well formed. I was just saying that I don't think your ultimatum works

 

[jokii]

Awesome !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY7aRJE-oOY

I like the part about AI.

That is why CIV AI will never be any good. They do not even try, because even if they succeed, players do not like to lose. Noobs will be unhappy and that is bad for the business.
I just played few games in CIV 5, after a long pause, and I quickly saw why I have stopped playing....
- suicide embarking near my boats, ...making a siege of my city wihout any ranged units, sending units on on a suicide walk to my teritory one by one, ...declaring a war on me, and than few turns later giving me all of their cities for peace...and a long, long list of those...

Basicly, CIV singleplayer is a waiting experience, ...for AI to suicide themselves, and you win !!!

Only real fun I had with CIV is in hotseat mode, and from what I see instead hotseat mode in CIV 6, we will get SQUAT.

 

[Bibor]

I will not display false modesty, the game was well received, and it felt really good, but I never really cared for 95% of the players' opinion because it is exactly like this was. Major critics are a good source because they get paid for publication, thus they generally reflect public opinion in a detailed, clean and comprehensible manner.

Perhaps you don't display false modesty, but you don't display quality either. This thread turned out to be a mediocrity love fest, the main protagonists of it being individuals that show no other personal quality other than the very basic drive for protecting their own emotional wrap around Civilization games. The argument "It's good enough for me" is as important for this discussion as the history of elephants.

A trained ear, a trained eye or a trained mind doesn't need a critic, expert or public opinion to either understand nor conclude if a new piece presented represents a mediocre or brilliant piece of execution or concept. This is true for music, literature, film, games, sports, machines, buildings or any other type of creative expression.

Note the use of word "trained" as it implies not only practice but also understanding. One can be shoveling manure for 50 years without ever bothering to understand how the physics behind shoveling work.

Excellence is a elusive quality when it comes to the games industry, compared to say sports or music. Although the playing field is similar (in games the company, in music the orchestra, in sports the team), the whole world behind game development is fundamentally dishonest, obscure, and pretty self-centered. The supposed difficulty in creating excellence is blown out of proportion, compared to other forms of creative expression.
Musicians, although loathing outside criticism, have a well-established appreciation of quality within their own ranks. This is why you can hear of Hemmet taking guitar classes from Satriani. There's one Mozart, one Smetana, one Freddie Mercury, one Shirley Bassey. I'd love to hear Bono stating he's a better singer than Freddie Mercury.
In my view, team sports are being the most honest of the three I listed. Due to a combination of individual matches and seasons, and radical public scrutiny, they have no choice but to work on excellence all the time.

Back on topic, Firaxis has been taking our money for way too long and should've been a pretty well established, respected pillar of the gaming industry to attract fresh talent and take on a more serious approach on game development excellence. The American approach to the problem of "popularity vs. excellence" is solved by having this chain of getting rich on popularity and then investing that money into excellence. Its not my problem that this very well established mechanism is broken here. Perhaps we could ask Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to create a new trust, as apparently 2K and/or Firaxis just can't get enough dosh to start feeling it's time to give back.

The good ol' civ tune is both infantile and well-known enough to enable such a radical shift out of mediocrity.

It would certainly be appreciated by many.

 

[Acken]

You know... at one point you may realize that civ being mediocre is just your opinion and certainly not an objective thought.

Meanwhile please continue writing novels and making videos on the subject.

I mean its not even the fact that you dislike sonething. Its just that these long posts sound more like an emotional speech than anything. Reading the last one felt so far away from reality that I almost waited for a "Lets make civ great again" at the end.

 

[Bibor]

I'm really hard pressed to find another reason apart from emotion to buy or play civ. It's a computer game after all. Compared to other games on the market that feature similar topics, it ranks close to bottom at competitive experience, the strategy segment isn't really War in the Pacific, and its sandbox toolset is limited. Its graphics and audio are in line with other A games on the market, as is the price tag. It isn't story driven nor is it a huge leap over its predecessor (like say from Fallout 2 to 3 or System Shock 1 to 2) where quality loss, if there is any, can be attributed to terra incognita. It's just a different orchestration (musical term) of the same tune, over and over again. One would think, after 25 years, they would've chiseled it to perfection by now.

 

[Acken]

I dont agree theres much better in that category on the market but Im mostly wondering why if you find no value in it you spend so much time talking about it.

Its greatest controversial release was when they tried to change some core concepts and you re mostly arguing it should be almost another game.

 

[wiggawuu]

Bibor.

Civ is past its prime. It doesn't mean it can't still be entertaining to some. But lets face it, the genre/style peaked years ago. The hardest thing is trying to keep making the game fresh. What the heck do you expect them to do? its like asking Kobe Bryant to come out of retirement and start playing like he played during his championship years.

Just move on dude.