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n0x-01 -- I Wonder...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by n0xie, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Sina

    Sina Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2005
    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    I firmly believe that SGs are about teamwork. I have a different playstyle especially with the techs than n0xie, but agree that we should follow a chosen path through if possible. I would normally get Priesthood/Fishing/Sailing before Pottery/Writing/Alphabet, but why not give his line a chance? He wouldn't do it this way if it didn't usually work. Changing things midway is a sure path to disaster.

    I don't think we should set scientists in Delhi. We really need growth and production there. It will produce all except the coastal wonders. Rather Cottage Bombay up and whip a Library there after the initial settler/worker/units.

    We should take Metal Casting with the Oracle for all the reasons Atlas mentioned.

    Build order in Delhi, my take: Pyramids, change to Oracle asap (when Marble connected), finish Pyramids, Parthenon. We should have Literature when all that is finished, so GL and then HG.
    Mine the hill there and farm the foodplains for max production. Then pre-chop expendable forrest for the Parthenon.

    I'd build 2 more warriors before the Pyramids though. We can't afford pillaging.

    I use imageshack for the screenshots. I don't understand why they are not all the same size though. :confused:
     
  2. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    733
    Location:
    Antiquity
    1900BC- Turn 0-(590 turns left)Change nothing. Bombay will be at

    the health limit at size two. This is clearly a problem since that

    size does not allow for the production of much of anything, that

    will go up to size three once a road gets built connecting it to

    Delhi, wow 5 turns to build a road, I am used to normal, okay

    mentally adjust myself, lets see if that helps :crazyeye:, not much

    help :). Press enter.

    1870BC- (589 turns let)Move warrior down there near HC, bustin' fog.

    I did not realize that we don't have any Ind. civs, yet! I think

    we still don't know one Civ.

    1840BC T2- Writing comes in. I know nOxie wanted Alphabet next, and

    I know I wrote that muiltiply strats in an SG just doesn't work, but

    but but, I really fear that we will lose the Lighthouse. Fishing

    and Sailing cost 14 turns, Alphabet 25 turns, and Priesthood five

    (marble not online so quicly vetoed). Those are the three paths

    that I am considering, now why do I choose the lighthouse path,

    because at size three, Delhi can make a settler in 14 turns, after

    the worker finishs I wil let it grow to size 4, then start settler,

    thus Sailing will come in a few turns before the settler is in place

    to found the city that the Great Lighthouse will be built in, but

    they should coincide with in 4 turns (on Epic speed that much), thus

    the Great Lighthouse (and prerequiste lighthouse will begin being

    built in about 20 turns (erred on the side of caution with that

    estimate). The Alphabet path will look like this 25 turns to

    Alphabet, then one turn where we trade for fishing and one turn

    where we trade for sailing, thus the Great Lighthouse city will not

    start building it for like 27 turns (assuming research times do not

    drop due to the founding of a third city). So I am going fishing to

    sailing.

    Guys we may also want to consider archery, I expect barbs soon, and

    without copper our warriors look pathetically thin, plus Mao is like

    right on top of us (in the 2nd ring from our capital). To make

    matters worse Iron Working (we probably do have iron somewhere

    within our reach) will not be coming for like 50 turns at the

    earliest. Thus assume that we have iron, we won't know it for like

    50 turns, then figure 10 turns to hook to up. We won't be building

    anything better than warrior for like 60 turns. Scary!!

    1810BC T3- Jungle grows near Bombay, that is just what we need at

    Bombay- more negative health modifiers :rolleyes: :gripe:

    IBT- Mao and Hatty ask for Open Borders. I agree. I think that

    Diplo will be as important as MM for wonderbuilds in this game. Mao

    and Us are going to have "border tensions" before long too.

    1780BC T4- Worker finishs in Delhi, I reconfigure the city for max

    growth, it will grow in 2 turns, while building a warrior- then I

    will start a settler there. The worker that just finished there is

    going to Bombay to speed up getting that marble online.

    1750BC T5- Roading to marble, bustin' fog.

    1720BC T6- Roading to marble, bustin' fog. Found the first barbs.

    We may want to put something on that marble quarry to guard it.

    Fishing comes in. Sailing due in 7 turns. Reconfigure Deli for

    Settler production.

    IBT JC asks and gets Open borders.

    1690BC T7- Warrior defeats barb. Going to road then mine that hill

    at Bombay.

    1660BC T8- Warrior finishs in Bombay. Warrior started, but I

    thought long and hard about a granary so that it can get one size

    bigger before it gets unhealthy.

    1630BC T9- Zzzz.

    1600BC T10- Borders at Bombay expand, Quarry started.

    IBT- Barbs attack both exploring warriors, both win, now both are

    Woodsman II promoted, but both are healing.

    1570BC T11-Zzzz

    1540BC T12- Mine started at Bombay. I did this just because this

    city is going to need to produce something, but it only has the

    marble and one hill that are shield tiles. Both of these will be

    usefull to have improved when it can't grow due to healt reason.

    1510BC T13 Sailing comes in. With the Marble quarry coming online

    in about 5 turns, I am going to go for Priesthood. After this

    settler Delhi needs to grow, it can do that while building the

    Oracle. It is getting late to not have started it IMHO. Priesthood

    due in 4 turns.

    1480BC- T14 Bombay grows to size three, that is the health limit w/o

    a granary or another health resource. A barb is spotted down near

    the coastal site that we want.

    1450BC- T15 Move explorers.

    IBT HC adopts Slavery.

    1420BC T16- Marble quarry is completed. At current size the Oracle

    is 12 turns, the Parthenon 30. I think build the Oracle old fashion

    style, then chop the Parthenon.

    1390BC- T17 Priesthood completes, Alphabet started. Judaism would

    be 7 turns, maybe this is the path I should have taken, but I have

    already taken a 3 tech detour from the Captain's prefered tech path

    so now Alphabet has started, due in 18. I think Math, CoL, or

    Judaism might be good for the next tech. Bombay finishs warrior and

    starts a warrior. Warrior sent to the next city site. A worker at

    Bombay starting cottage.

    1360BC- T18 Zzz

    IBT sign Open borders with Genghis- Watch the relations!! Some of

    these agreements are going to have to go eventually as the AIs begin

    to dislike each other.

    1330Bc T19 Settler finishes, it takes Delhi's neighbor and will meet

    up with the Bombay settler to found our Great Lighthouse city.

    Delhi starts a warrior. A detour to Archery will cost only seven

    turns, it may be worth it since there are now barb warriors

    wandering around.

    1300BC T20 (570 turns left!!)- Settler now has 2 warrior escorts. Delhi has one

    warrior and is building another due in 6 turns because I have it

    configured for max growth thus I am not working the rock quarry or

    the gold mine (Atlas dodges objects thrown by teammates and takes

    care not to drop the heavens and earth since it is difficult to

    dodge while holding them up). I was working those tiles when

    building the settler though and just switched them now to what I

    think is the best configuration since Delhi can support 3 more

    citizens and thus should have them ASAP.

    Summary- Alphabet due in 15. A detour to archery hmmm. Glad I

    don't have to make that decision, I like to preempt barb problems.

    Delhi just got it's next border expansion, thus our rear is

    protected againist settlment, but not that spices site to the north

    of Bombay. I (personally) think that the warrior in Delhi should

    finish so that it has two, one to protect the city and on to protect

    tile improvements and then start the oracle while it grows. The

    oracle will finish about the time the worker at Bombay finish

    putting some needed tile improvement in thus the oracle will finish

    and Delhi can go immiedately onto the Parthenon (with chopping

    help). Bombay (while sheild poor) should continue to produce

    soldiers. The next tile improvement I see for Delhi would be a mine

    and a cottage on the Floodplain. The coastal city will also need a

    worker to chop the Great Lighthouse and improve the tiles for its

    next build the Colossus. However someone will have to sneak in

    Animal Husbandry for to get the best tile down there in action, but

    the first thing to do will be to road the rice down there since it

    currently does NOT have jungle on it but is surrounded on 3 sides by

    jungle, so we don't want jungle to grow on it, a road will stop

    that. Ah, I forgot about the Pyramids hmmm, I almost never build them in non variant play since I think that they are really pricey for what you get. I don't really know when they normally fall, but my guess would be around early BC times, we may want to build Oracle, chop Pyramids, then Parthenon, since I think that is the order that they normally fall. Sorry about the double spacing there, it just cut and pasted that way from notepad. I only took one pic, of some barbs, but since they are now dead I don't really see the need of posting it, so no pics.
     
  3. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    I would lean towards tech at this stage to ensure we get those wonder techs before the AI does.

    Agree 100%. I love doing the slingshot but missing it in this game would be Game Over and Metal Casting is one of the techs we want to get first.

    And if you haven't figured it out, I pressed reply before realising you had played your sets so I will now go and read your turnset report and see if I've put my foot in it.

    On screenshots, I use photobucket.com. They give 1GB of storage and 10GB of bandwidth for free. And have been fast and reliable as far as I can see. I would recommend them but haven't used any of the others so can't say if they are the best.

    Hope to hear more dollars worth as it's good for the SG this type of debate. Keep it up.

    Agreed. This variant is going to be challenging and we can't afford to be playing two games in one.

    On the subject of scientists in the capital, I am a bit torn on this one. This is to me a great strategy for a normal game but in this game where we are chasing all the wonders, that need so much production spent on them, it seems to be risky. I would do as has been suggested and save this strategy for another city.

    Ouch. If only we could have gotten all those resources and be on the river for the fresh water bonus. This will make chopping around this city more painful.

    We do though have quite a few health resources in our general area and should do what we can to get them all farmed and connected up. A few techs missing for this though I think.

    I agree that archery should be researched soon. We may be tempted with our variant goals to ignore quite a few military techs but this one will be needed to protect our resources from the barbs at the least. But should we do it now or wait the 15 turns for alphabet?

    I feel that maybe we should wait. I am concerned with the sound that there are already a few barbarians coming up. Also with all the open borders, we will have to keep a close eye open to watch that none of the AI's sneak a settler up to our Northern side.

    If you think this is late, you should read my SG - Fear of Flying. We got it so very late in that game that we traded for Code of Laws before we got it. So pulled of a miraculous CS slingshot :lol: . Actually, we sued for peace and demaned CoL from one of the AI's to be precise. Lets hope that the AI's in this game are as wonder adverse as they are in Fear of Flying.[/end self serving advertisement ;) ]

    All those times to completed things are completely foreign to me. I have not played epic enough.

    Roster:
    -- n0xie -- On deck (looking for wonders in all the wrong places ;) )
    -- omni_paul (dotting)
    -- Sina (on the road)
    -- the_scorpion645 (mia)
    -- Atlas (pondering what to research next)
    -- Kikinit -- I'm up and got it.

    I think the_scorpion is gone completely so if we want a 6th player, we will have to find a new one.
     
  4. omni_paul

    omni_paul Mr. Shambles

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    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia.
    Mmm... Scorpion has dropped off due to 1.61 being incompatable with his alternatively acquired software (tut tut).

    5 is good for an SG, unless you guys specifically want 6.

    Oh and good turns Atlas. We will have a little time on the Pyramids as we have stone, but shouldn't wait too much longer. This initial period is going to be tough, but if we make it through we'll be coasting.

    On that note, I want us all to be aware that the whip will be our friend in this one. We shouldn't be shy about whipping wonders with 3 or 4 turns to go. If we're close to building one (in the ancient era particularly) chances are someone else is too. I can't tell you the number of times in SP games I've been 3 or 4 turns away from the lighthouse or oracle only to have someone else build it. It was within whip range, but I'd decided to preserve population. In this case, if we lose 1 we lose the game. Therefore, well worth cracking the whip to get the task done in my opinion. Discuss!
     
  5. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    I'm happy with 5 but I won't be signing up for any more SG's, that's for sure.

    I do agree with this to a certain level but we also need to be aware that whipping our capital from size 10 down to size 5 may have a huge subsequent cost. Particularly once we are under the civic bureaucracy.
    .
     
  6. omni_paul

    omni_paul Mr. Shambles

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    Location:
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    Agreed. But by the time we get bureaucracy, we'll be past the ancient era wonders. Let's just not be shy about whipping unhealthy or unhappy citizens. Especially the unhappy ones, they're unproductive anyway so might was well kill them for the cause! :)
     
  7. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    Location:
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    Yes I whip wonders occasionally in SP, this is not a bad technique, generally I find that in a productive city one turn equals on pop. point on a wonder whip. I think that this is not the end of the world if the next build is a wonder, thus the production goes into that wonder or alternatively if there is not a wonder to be built next.

    Also be sure to cancel the Open Borders as the AI fill up the interior of the Continent.

    -Atlas

    ps. Despite my complaints about health at Bombay, I think that it is correctly placed and agree with Kiknit, that we have enough resources to make this a very good city, but the problem that we have to connect them up.
     
  8. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    Wow.. this game is a bit nerve wracking. I kept expecting to have a message come up that so & so wonder has been finished an a far away land.

    I managed to complete the oracle and took metal casting to get us forges and the colossus. I didn't want to wait until code of laws especially when we want to do alpabet first.

    Pyramids are due in a few. I think the capital will be whippable in the next turn to finish it. We then need to concentrate on getting the Parthenon, Colossus and Great Lighthouse.

    I started the lighthouse in the new coastal city but I did it a bit late :smoke: . I started on a worker first in my normal style and then later thought what the hell am I doing so changed it to a lighthouse. Because of this and the wonder builds, I didn't get to start any more workers or settlers. These too need to be done.

    This is going to be a tough variant. I hope I haven't screwed it up too much. As has been stated, these early turns are just so critical.

    Here's my turnlog and some pics.

    Turn 90 (0) (1300 BC)
    Ok.. I learnt something already. Roading a city to a river connects it up to your trade network. I started by having a look around and realising that we have three wonders that we can build. I guess we also need to expand so they were put on hold but as a warrior is queued but not started and we seem to have quite a few already wandering around, I decide to start building a wonder. I was a bit indecisive at first but decided on the pyramids.
    Delhi begins: The Pyramids
    Delhi begins: The Oracle
    Delhi begins: The Pyramids
    Bombay finishes: Warrior

    Turn 91 (1) (1270 BC)
    I was a bit indecisive here too... Thought to do a settler, then I realised at the end of the turn that we already have one on it's way to a new town so I choose to do the Oracle. With MM I get it down to only 13. I think it's worth rushing it in and then getting back to expansion.
    Bombay begins: Settler
    Bombay begins: The Oracle

    Turn 92 (2) (1240 BC)

    Turn 93 (3) (1210 BC)
    Damned warrior is on our chosen city site and has a 75% defense bonus. I will have to move into the jungle myself and get him to attack us, which he duly did IBT.



    Warrior defeats (0.64/2): Barbarian Warrior
    Warrior defeats (0.50/2): Barbarian Warrior

    Turn 94 (4) (1180 BC)

    Turn 95 (5) (1150 BC)
    Madras founded
    Madras begins: Fast Worker

    Turn 96 (6) (1120 BC)
    Contact made: Greek Empire <-- Meet Alex.

    Turn 97 (7) (1090 BC)

    Turn 98 (8) (1060 BC)
    Delhi grows: 5

    Turn 99 (9) (1030 BC)

    Turn 100 (10) (1000 BC)
    I make it to Rome and it's a small place. Only population of 3. He must have been doing some whipping too.



    Turn 101 (11) (985 BC)
    Just for interest. Pretty obvious with our characteristics and building stonehenge. I should think we shall be leading in culture for the whole game.



    Turn 102 (12) (970 BC)
    Bombay finishes: The Oracle And Metal Casting is taken as the tech. We now have The Colossus to build too.



    As you can see it didn't take as many turns as I thought. I MM'd quite extremely in Bombay and even had starvation for a while to get this as fast as possible. The city needs to be doing other things, but I couldn't wait for the capital to finish the pyramids and parthenon before we even attempted this. And the coastal city has other priorities.
    Bombay finishes: The Oracle And Metal Casting is taken as the tech. We now have The Colossus to build too.

    Turn 103 (13) (955 BC)
    Bombay begins: Granary

    Turn 104 (14) (940 BC)
    Alphabet came in here. I just realised that the log isn't recording techs that are learnt. I also took a pic of the trade screen that didn't take. The reason I wanted to do that was because Mao has Maths and he won't trade it. Out of fear that he may be holding it to build the hanging gardens, I decide that we best research it now and start building an aqueduct and the HG. Feel free to shoot me for this.
    Research begun: Mathematics
    Madras begins: Lighthouse

    As we are now going for Maths and we are lacking some worker techs, I traded with JC for Hunting and Animal Husbandry. Everyone also has Archery, so we should try and work out some way of getting that.

    Turn 105 (925 BC)

    Turn 106 (910 BC)

    Turn 107 (895 BC)

    Turn 108 (880 BC)

    Turn 109 (865 BC)
    Madras's borders expand

    Turn 110 (850 BC)
    Delhi will be finishing the pyramids soon. It should be whipable in a turn or 2.



    And the save.
     
  9. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    Location:
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    And a roster to finish off with. Rescue us n0xie.

    Roster:
    -- n0xie -- Up
    -- omni_paul -- On deck
    -- Sina (on the road)
    -- the_scorpion645 (mia)
    -- Atlas (pondering what to research next)
    -- Kikinit (panicking about the AI beating us to the next wonder)
     
  10. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    Location:
    Antiquity
    @ Kiknit

    Turns Look Good!
     
  11. AndrewN

    AndrewN Prince

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    Location:
    Stanwell, UK
    lurker's comment:
    35 hammers per turn in 850BC :eek: Thats amazing

    From my experience the AI is slow to get Metal Casting (probably because if the cost of the tech) so you will have a while to build The Colossus.
     
  12. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    Yes 35 hammers per turn. But notice that I have sacrificed the cities growth to achieve that. It's a balance. I believe that as soon as the pyramids are done the city should go on a growth spurt to get a few more pop points and then MM back to max hammers. For this reason I am going to say that I don't think we should whip the pyramids in. I would rather have the city grow bigger.

    And we get 50% bonus on wonders + 100% for having stone for the pyramids. So that's 14 * (1+1+0.5) = 35.

    EDIT: Actually, applying this to whips may be a good idea. We would get 20x2.5 = 50 per pop point. And with Maths it is 20 x (1+0.5+1+0.5) = 60 per pop point. Of course with forge it's better again. 20 x (1+0.5+1+0.5+0.25) = 65 hammers per pop point. That is to say, whipping for wonders is probably the best value whips we can get so should be encouraged, particularly when we have unhappy citizens.

    EDIT2: Um.. that's all for forests... the numbers for whipping are 30x(1+1+0.5) = 75 and with a forge 30x(1+1+0.5+0.25) = 82.
     
  13. n0xie

    n0xie OCC-addict

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    Very good turnsets people :)

    I'm planning on whipping the Pyramids for 1 Pop or 2 and let the overflow go towards a forge. The forge should be ready by the time Mathematics is in, so we can start Aquaduct/HG. I'm afraid Qin will else steal it from us since he's Industrious as well. Although Bombay could really use the Aquaduct... Hmmm. We also need to start the Parthenon sometime soon... Aargh... Decissions decissions!

    Oh yeah, I got it :p
     
  14. omni_paul

    omni_paul Mr. Shambles

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    Nice work :) I can't believe I'm on deck already!!

    This early stage is the banana skin, but we seem to be doing well. Lighthouse will be the tough one. We may need to do some serious whipping to be certain of that one. At least with parthenon we have marble.
     
  15. Kikinit

    Kikinit Emperor

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    Yeah.. I was thinking that Colossus might be a difficult one. I remember from my turns that there was some copper out to our West (quite a way) that wasn't settled on. We could whip a settler out and go for that maybe? Sorry I can't load the save up now so can't recheck.
    .
     
  16. Sina

    Sina Warlord

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    Good turns. :goodjob:

    The Chinese is Mao, so we need to get the Parthenon before the Hanging Gardens. I have a feeling that we are running out of time there.
    Or maybe I'm just paranoid. :lol:

    Mao is not trading Math yet because he has the monopoly on it is my guess. I quite often trade for Math before the HG is built and it does very seldomly fall before the Parthenon, if ever.
     
  17. n0xie

    n0xie OCC-addict

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    Aah it's not Qin. My bad :blush:

    In that case I'll do the Pathenon obviously. Should be quite quick with a forge, marble and our industrious trait. I'll set Delhi to growth instead of hammers: I want Delhi to be a powerhouse as soon as possible.

    We're looking good so far :D
     
  18. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    RE: Parthenon

    Did you get the memo about the new cover sheets on the TPS reports? Well if not I will send it to you again. Ummmm yeah and attach the new cover sheets for your TPS report about chopping the Parthenon in Delhi.

    -Atlas

    ps. Has anybody seen my red swingline stapler?
     
  19. omni_paul

    omni_paul Mr. Shambles

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    @Atlas
    Maybe we should put together a 'jump to wonders' mat, and base our build queues on that? :lol:
     
  20. n0xie

    n0xie OCC-addict

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    Ok sorry for delaying but I just got a new shiny computer which I just had to toy with for a few days before indulging myself into CIV again. Reinstalled it about 6 times untill I was satisfied, and it runs like a Ferrari on acid. Anyway...

    So I wasn't really paying attention to any of my SG's or life in general for that matter. Work got me swamped and the few free hours I do get I spend the last few days humping my new box. I just logged in from work occassionally to see if we lost yet ;)

    Here we go :D

    preturn assessment:

    I see the chinese want to add a city to our great kingdom. That's very generous of them. Building a city to our borders near our capitol which will build wonders for the next 1000 years or so is very smart Mao, keep up the good work!


    I ponder and ponder as I look at our Capitol. It's size 5 with a limit of size 7. With Pyramids build it would be 9 and with a soon-to-be-build forge 11. I want Delhi to grow yet I don't want to loose the Parthenon. It's a gamble but I set Delhi to full growth, dropping the Pyramids a few turns, but speeding up Mathematics (not that that matters atm but still I need something to back my decision up :p). I still intend to whip 1 citizen away (the one I'm now... hmm... how shall I put this... 'making' ;) ) to rush the forge. Mathematics will give us 'normal' chops which means we can lay off the whip for a little bit. Bigger is better in this case, or so my gf keeps saying to me.


    We're doing good tech-wise. No archery and the AI is reluctant to trade it, since I'm reluctant to trade away Polytheism while we still need to build Partheon. I do want archery though, but not at any cost...

    And so I press enter...
     

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